[WTCC] Race 17 & 18 - Oschersleben (GER), 6th September 2009

[stedevil]

Originally Posted by gomick

Who would've thought a couple of rounds ago that Yvan Muller would be 3rd in points

I'm mostly surprised all those that were screaming a few months ago how unbalanced things was pro Seat are so quiet now when BMW now suddenly is equal in both driver and manufacturer championships. It's not like they didnt even add to their long list of massive start of season screw ups with events in Porto and Brno... Personally Im happy the championship is heating up with multiple teams and drivers getting seriously into the mix. But it does amuse me to notice how calm things are when the "right" team & drivers score the big points.

[helterskelter]

Originally Posted by stedevil

I'm mostly surprised all those that were screaming a few months ago how unbalanced things was pro Seat are so quiet now when BMW now suddenly is equal in both driver and manufacturer championships. It's not like they didnt even add to their long list of massive start of season screw ups with events in Porto and Brno... Personally Im happy the championship is heating up with multiple teams and drivers getting seriously into the mix. But it does amuse me to notice how calm things are when the "right" team & drivers score the big points.

The slight difference is that when SEAT were dominant, at the beginning of the season, Tarquini and Yvan took 15 points while Farfus took 7 and Priaulx 2. In Marrakech it was even more of a disaster, as Priaulx failed to score and Farfus only took 3 points, while Tarquini took 12 and Yvan 13. Now, when BMW had 2 wins and a 1-2, Tarquini gets 14 points, equal as Farfus. It seems like the difference is much smaller, and Oschersleben was always going to be a BMW track. If BMW hadn't helped Farfus, he'd be a long way back in the standings. Also, in R1, it was all down to one of the best drives I've ever seen by Andy, thank God I was there to witness it. The next BMW was Augusto, 5th, and of the other three BMWs who scored points 2 of them were independents; one must take into account that, had the van Lagen-Larini thing not happened, Farfus would have emerged from the weekend with less points than Tarquini in the track that is most suitable to BMW than any other in the calendar.
That explains why Andy and Augusto were smiling while Tarquini went along with the usual lines 'we're slower, it's going to be tough in Imola'. He might be right, but we'll see...
So, IMO, there's nothing to calm down. As the ballast system calculations show, the SEATs are still extremely quick and in Imola they should be dominant because of all the different uphill accelerations there are at the Enzo e Dino Ferrari. Now that things havebeen equalized, like I was calling for at the beginning of the season, things are shaping up well as the cars are equal, and then it all depends on which track you race in, just the way a touring car championship is supposed to be. At least, it looks like it's going to be decided on the last race, and not in Okayama, as last year. Great...!

[stedevil]

Originally Posted by helterskelter

The slight difference is that when SEAT were dominant, at the beginning of the season,

Ok, so if Seat takes X points and BMW takes Y points, Seat is dominant and changes are needed. But when BMW takes X and Seat Y, then everything is ok?

On top of this, when Seat got X, BMW made huge blunders (lone wolf qualifying strategy, utterly failing in wet setup etc), but when BMW got X points, it's still BMW that makes huge blunders (Porto,Brno).

I think Seat, not to mention Chevy, needs to start to really make some stupid team decisions soon to make sure they get more points than BMW.

[helterskelter]

Originally Posted by stedevil

Ok, so if Seat takes X points and BMW takes Y points, Seat is dominant and changes are needed. But when BMW takes X and Seat Y, then everything is ok?

On top of this, when Seat got X, BMW made huge blunders (lone wolf qualifying strategy, utterly failing in wet setup etc), but when BMW got X points, it's still BMW that makes huge blunders (Porto,Brno).

I think Seat, not to mention Chevy, needs to start to really make some stupid team decisions soon to make sure they get more points than BMW.

As I wrote, when Seat got X BMW got Y, but when BMW took X Seat got Y+Z. These are facts, and the standings prove that SEAT is still leading both championships. Had it not been for some of the decisions BMW took (that you seem to rate very lowly), Farfus would surely be much lower in the standings and SEAT would result as still dominant. Farfus screwed up in Brno, but Yvan did the same in Brands Hatch and in Oschersleben.
Marrakech was ridiculous, Chevys were 60 kgs lighter and SEATs were much faster on the straights. As I called for at the beninning of the year, things have now changed, and in fact the championship looks more equal, with at least three drivers fighting for the crown, from 2 different manufacturers. This is equalization, and Oschersleben showed how SEAT can make the most of its dark days, as they took 3 podium spots out of 6 in a BMW track. So why would BMW be dominant? Let's see in Imola. If BMWs are faster than SEATs, then something's wrong. If SEATs are faster, then it's just because it really depends on the tracks they race on.

[stedevil]

Originally Posted by helterskelter

As I wrote, when Seat got X BMW got Y, but when BMW took X Seat got Y+Z. These are facts, and the standings prove that SEAT is still leading both championships.

Please stop act like you cant count. BMW has 1 point less in total than Seat, Farfus 1 point less than Tarquini. What IS a fact is that even though BWM has continued to make huge blunders they move ahead in the championship standings. How is that fair to eg Chevy that the rules are so slanted towards BMW that even when they screw up they still catch up to Seat and leave Chevy far behind?

Had it not been for some of the decisions BMW took (that you seem to rate very lowly), Farfus would surely be much lower in the standings and SEAT would result as still dominant.

Just a few posts back you yourself wrote

[Long line of relatively reasonable events]... ...Priaulx gets 25 more points, up to 91. Farfus gets a -18, down to 72.

Prialux at 91, how does that make Seat dominant???

[helterskelter]

I'm counting the races in which SEAT had an unfair advantage (as the Federation has stated), and if you count that you realize what I mean. Ches won in Morocco because of the waivers, so they really can't complain. Their car is new, the drivers are still getting to grips with it and it takes time to make a championship winner out of a racing car.
As for the Priaulx-Farfus thing, it would look much like the situation we have now, with SEAT having 2 drivers fighting for the championship and BMW just one. Farfus now has 90 points, so there's not much difference between 91 and 90.

[stedevil]

Originally Posted by helterskelter

As for the Priaulx-Farfus thing, it would look much like the situation we have now, with SEAT having 2 drivers fighting for the championship and BMW just one. Farfus now has 90 points, so there's not much difference between 91 and 90.

You seem to forget that BMW didnt just sacrifice Prialux to get Farfus in top 8. They sacrificed Jörg as well. Both of them likely would have gotten more points that weekend than Farfus did from a 8th + 1st, so it likely would be a 2vs2 driver situation. Additionally, trading 2 high scoring drivers for 1 lower scoring severely affected BMW manufacturer title score as well since BMW lost points and Seat gained them.

[helterskelter]

Originally Posted by stedevil

You seem to forget that BMW didnt just sacrifice Prialux to get Farfus in top 8. They sacrificed Jörg as well. Both of them likely would have gotten more points that weekend than Farfus did from a 8th + 1st, so it likely would be a 2vs2 driver situation. Additionally, trading 2 high scoring drivers for 1 lower scoring severely affected BMW manufacturer title score as well since BMW lost points and Seat gained them.

No, BMW only lost a point in Porto, because of the manufacturers' championship sporting rules. They only lose points if they let a Chevy pass, which hardly happened throughout the season. Jorg wouldn't have lost as many points as Priaulx, and wouldn't have been up there. I didn't do any precise calculations, so I can't tell you anything exact, but Jorg was still on track in Brno and only dropped one-two places in Porto, I can't remember at the moment. The rest of it, is just giving up on points. I think we can say that Jorg hasn't lost more than 10 points in helping Farfus.

[stedevil]

Originally Posted by helterskelter

No, BMW only lost a point in Porto, because of the manufacturers' championship sporting rules. They only lose points if they let a Chevy pass, which hardly happened throughout the season.

??? Are you trying to say it doesnt matter if BMW finish ahead or behind Seat, teampoints are still the same?!?

Jorg wouldn't have lost as many points as Priaulx, and wouldn't have been up there. I didn't do any precise calculations, so I can't tell you anything exact, but Jorg was still on track in Brno and only dropped one-two places in Porto, I can't remember at the moment. The rest of it, is just giving up on points. I think we can say that Jorg hasn't lost more than 10 points in helping Farfus.

He probably lost more than 10 just in Porto. He was placed 7th IIRC and going well when ordered to dropp out of the reverse grid. From a front row starting position I don't think he would have been much less likely to get the 2nd race win than Farfus.

Also, your calculations completely miss the fact that when BWM drivers score more points, there are less points available for Seat drivers. You can probably drop at least 10 points each from Yvan, Gabrielli and Rickards total scores in your "Prialux gets 91" scenario.

[helterskelter]

Originally Posted by stedevil

??? Are you trying to say it doesnt matter if BMW finish ahead or behind Seat, teampoints are still the same?!?
He probably lost more than 10 just in Porto. He was placed 7th IIRC and going well when ordered to dropp out of the reverse grid. From a front row starting position I don't think he would have been much less likely to get the 2nd race win than Farfus.

Also, your calculations completely miss the fact that when BWM drivers score more points, there are less points available for Seat drivers. You can probably drop at least 10 points each from Yvan, Gabrielli and Rickards total scores in your "Prialux gets 91" scenario.

No, I'm saying that if Priaulx is 4th behind 2 Seats and a Chevy, if he drops to 9th BMW only loses 1 point to Seat because another Chevy passes Priaulx.
Yeah, probably he lost 15 points: two when he had to stay behind Augusto and 10-12 in Porto. Big difference between 13-15 and 10...
I never mentioned Seat drivers, I was only comparing Priaulx's and Farfus' performances. I was talking about the decision BMW took by backing Farfus from Porto, already, which was a bit too early IMO.

[stedevil]

Originally Posted by helterskelter

No, I'm saying that if Priaulx is 4th behind 2 Seats and a Chevy, if he drops to 9th BMW only loses 1 point to Seat because another Chevy passes Priaulx.

The BMW was clearly faster than Seat in race pace. I was fully expecting Prialux to catch and possibly pass Yvan in race 1. That's a further +2 to for BMW and -2 for Seat. And I don't see it as too unlikely that race 2 would have seen 2 BMW drivers on the podium. Thats another +3 for BMW and -1-2 for Seat (even more likely if P wouldnt manage to get past Y in race 1). So yes, Im quite convinced that the damage to BWM manufacturer title was a lot more than just losing 1 point to Chevy.

Big difference between 13-15 and 10...

It's a big difference when you state how it cant be more that 10 when 10 is the absolute minimum realistic number. And with +13-15 points Jörg would be much more likely to be among the "end of season backed" divers by the team, potentially having strings pulled to make him get more points, instead of sitting in the back seat and getting team ordered around. That would mean > 13-15 points by now.

I never mentioned Seat drivers

Except for that they would be DOMINATING, a statement that clearly not even you yourself believe in. In fact you made a long post detailing exactly how specifically Prialux in essence would be about 10 points ahead of anybody else and another 1-2 BMW drivers would be fighting for 2nd with 1-2 Seat drivers. Hardly a Seat domination by any stretch of the imagination.

So I repeat, even though Seat has not tripped themselves over and BMW clearly has continued to do so, BMW has managed to close the gap and be neck and neck with Seat and way ahead of Chevy. Now where are those loud voices demanding equality at the start of the season that claimed to not be biased to a brand or driver?

[helterskelter]

Imola quali results are there to prove what I was saying. Seat IS dominant in "its" tracks and BMW is dominant in "its" tracks. The championship is now balanced, and Seat deserve to be dominant here as this is their home track. Not only this, but Chevys were in Q2 with all 3 cars, despite being charged another +20kgs a few days before the race.
Anyway, I never said Priaulx would be 10 points ahead of everyone, but that he would be on par with Farfus at this point in the championship. As for the points lost by BMW in the manufacturers', you seem to forget that Priaulx t everyone through at the last lap, so there wasn't much to try by then.
Supposing that the extra motivation would give Jorg an extra 5-10 points is a bit stretched, as his contract is said to be expiring this year and he needs to prove himself.

[stedevil]

Originally Posted by helterskelter

Imola quali results are there to prove what I was saying. Seat IS dominant in "its" tracks and BMW is dominant in "its" tracks.

What you saw in qualy was Seat doing TEAM WORK. When you floor the rest with TEAM WORK you deserve to be ahead. When you continously screw up, you dont.

Not only this, but Chevys were in Q2 with all 3 cars, despite being charged another +20kgs a few days before the race.

+10kg, and it's another team that understands what TEAM WORK means. Unfortunately Menus long stretch of bad luck continues and with only 2 cars left running they could not challenge seriously for pole.

Anyway, I never said Priaulx would be 10 points ahead of everyone

No, but that is the only logical conclusion of your "what if" story. If Prialux (and Jörg) gets loads of extra points, somebody has to lose the SAME amount of points. Its a 0 sum game.

[helterskelter]

If you put Priaulx in the place of Farfus, then nothing changes. Without Augusto winning, the same amount of points are available for the others.
BMWs were working together, too. I don't know if you saw quali, but Priaulx was slipstreaming Augusto and all Farfus could do was 0.029 faster than Andy. So, if SEAT have 7 tenths of teamwork in Imola, why not the same in Oschersleben, for instance? Truth is, this was a SEAT track and it pretty much showed. True, Chevy worked as a team as much as BMW, and they were ahead.
Do you still believe SEATs are not dominant? This time it wasn't Augusto's fault, as everything was messy and it can happen. Having +6kph is pretty special in Imola. The championship is equal now, but they had too much of an advantage in the first few races. Tarquini and Yvan were in a class of their own yesterday. Was it down to team work that they had a 4s margin at the end of Race 2? What did BMW screw up this time? Certainly not strategies in quali. he TDis were simply faster, full stop.

[stedevil]

Originally Posted by helterskelter

If you put Priaulx in the place of Farfus, then nothing changes.

Your Prialux fixation is getting pretty tedious. You keep ignoring Jörg. Jörg + Prialux would score more than Farfus alone.

BMWs were working together, too. I don't know if you saw quali, but Priaulx was slipstreaming Augusto and all Farfus could do was 0.029 faster than Andy.

I did, and I saw the tests too. Only in Q2 did Andy and Augusto bother with that, and by then it was already game over since only 2 BMW made it past Q1. And they didnt even practice it properly before qualy. Seat got ALL their cars line-a-stern as did Chevy and thus all their cars made it to Q2. Did you see 4-5 BMW out there together doing a draft train EVER during the entire weekend? BMW teamwork still sucks (because they have too much internal rivalry going on?). [QUOTE] So, if SEAT have 7 tenths of teamwork in Imola, why not the same in Oschersleben, for instance? [QUOTE] If you don't already know the basics of slipstreaming, it's no point in me trying to explain.

Tarquini and Yvan were in a class of their own yesterday.

Yet Farfus had faster laptimes than both of them... in a banged up emergency repaired car.
And this week, apart from still not managing to sort out Q1 in a good manner, BMW did nothing wrong. Sometimes you can be just unlucky as well.

[helterskelter]

You keep mentioning Jorg, ignoring that he only let Augusto through in Porto.
Augusto was not ok with the car and the track this weekend, not as much as Priaulx. BMW Team UK and Italy-Spain worked together in Q1, maybe they didn't show it on the but it was pretty easy to see it from the pit wall.
About Oschersleben, you actually said what I hoped you'd say to prove that sometimes teamwork is just not enough, and on certain tracks some cars are unbeatable, just like the TDi in Imola. So I think we can agree that SEAT having so many points ahead of BMW is not only down to teamwork, but also to the fact that the TDi is much faster on straights. Having a +6 kph in Imola compared to BMWs is quite special, I don't think it's a matter of teamwork but more a matter of engine. That is more than ok, and the championship is equalized properly now. Telling a driver that he doesn't know anything about slipstreaming is pretty unfair, but I take it as granted that you will be unpolite when talking to me.
You only see what you want to see. Farfus had a faster laptime, but Gabriele and Yvan never had a clean lap as they were fighting against each other, while Augusto had the chance to have the slipstream from Félix and d'Aste during the race. Are you saying that Farfus was faster than Tarquini and Yvan Muller? If you look at Rydell's laptime, it's pretty clear. If you're still not convinced, you can look at their Race 1 pace to see where they were exactly. No question that the Leòn TDi was the fastest car in Imola, they had pole, fastest laptime during both races and 4 podium spots out of 6. If they had more than 2 drivers they were able to support (Rydell is being left a bit by himself and always gets bad luck) then they'd have been much more efficient during these weekend and could easily have had a 1-2-3-4-5, possibly with Alex being able to stand in between had he not had problems in quali.

[stedevil]

Originally Posted by helterskelter

You keep mentioning Jorg, ignoring that he only let Augusto through in Porto.

Answer the question instead, does JM + AP equal MORE points than AF alone? Because your entire reasoning builds on that is doesnt which again even you yourself dont believe in (in your calculations you value AP to get +25 and AF -18, clearly those missing 7 points needs to come from somewhere). BTW why do you keep claiming things that you KNOW is incorrect yourself?

Augusto was not ok with the car and the track this weekend, not as much as Priaulx.

I dont understand, what is your point here? To claim that Farfus on bad weekend do better laptimes in the race than Prialux on a good?

BMW Team UK and Italy-Spain worked together in Q1, maybe they didn't show it on the but it was pretty easy to see it from the pit wall.

Yes, in Q1 (but not before) they took 1 quick guy, 1 slow guy and 1 guy with 6 speeds, different gear ratio, hand-controls and -60kg and made them go together. Unsurprisingly only 1 of them made it into Q2. At the same time elsewhere on the track 1 slow guy and 1 quick guy ran together. Again, only 1 of them made it to Q2. SUPER team tactics...

Both Seat and Chevy teams must be laughing their asses off at such incompetence. BMW already does not have a good excuse for not being able to get 4-5 cars out at once, or at least the 3 quickest guys, to help EVERYBODY get to Q2 on tracks where it's beneficial.

About Oschersleben, you actually said what I hoped you'd say to prove that sometimes teamwork is just not enough, and on certain tracks some cars are unbeatable, just like the TDi in Imola.

I dont agree the TDI was unbeatable. Unfortunately the top contenders to beat them, AP and AF, was both involved in race 1 lap 1 accidents and never had a clean shot. I repeat, AF had better laptimes than both YM and GT. Top BWM drivers were at least there on pace to make a fight out of it had they got through on the first lap properly (and in AP case, not had big problems at the end of race 1).

... much faster on straights. Having a +6 kph in Imola compared to BMWs is quite special

It's BMWs own decision to use a manual fixed gearratio 5 speed transmission. Naturally that will and SHOULD be a disadvantage relative a 6speed semiautomatic with flexible gearratios. Reaching max top speed too early down the straight is just one of the potential issues involved with fixed 5-speed.

Telling a driver that he doesn't know anything about slipstreaming is pretty unfair, but I take it as granted that you will be unpolite when talking to me.

You are the one acting like you dont know what it is, Im just not wasting time trying to explain it to you when you clearly dont want to understand just to confuse the discussion. And that makes you the unpolite person. Discuss opinions and facts, dont just throw BS up into the air that you KNOW is incorrect.

[helterskelter]

We're getting too far with this Jorg thing. The right question is: would Jorg have the same points as Priaulx if BMW hadn't helped Farfus? The answer is absolutely no, as today's standings prove.
No, my point is that slipstreaming was useless in Imola, as it didn't work to make Augusto go better than expected, as Augusto simply didn't have the pace. And so did most of the other BMWs.
Is the slow guy HernÃ*ndez, the one who had a laptime in quali that was 1 tenth off Priaulx's pace? Ok...
The answer that you call "excuse" is that BMW does not have a coordination like SEAT and Chevy because the national teams are different teams working with the same cars. Or do you think that the flag they like the most is put on the cars? They do share data, but they're not in the same team. Helping the best placed driver is much different than working together, you can only do that if you have Menu and Larini working for a much faster Huff and Monteiro (ridicuolous), Genè and Rydell working for Tarquini and Yvan, all backed by the same investors. That's the simple difference you don't seem to understand.
Sure, so Tarquini and Yvan slowed down in order to get Rydell to set the best laptime, just to give him the honour of that. Incredible: Seat dominates in Imola and you say that BMWs could have beaten them.
Sure, so Zanardi slowed down before the speed trap to show the world that Seat has a different engine... Alex has a light car with 6 gears and a sequential, so why would he be slower?
We were discussing, and you kept on claiming that teamwork makes SEAT successful, so I said that to prove that Tarquini hasn't taken two podium spots because of teamwork, and yet took the championship lead. As Dr Mario Theissen said to me, when they (and you) talk about teamwork as the main reason why Seat wins (and IMO will win again), you "forget the engine".

[werner]

No, my point is that slipstreaming was useless in Imola,

??? Imola has the longest straight of the championship!

[helterskelter]

Originally Posted by werner

No, my point is that slipstreaming was useless in Imola,

??? Imola has the longest straight of the championship!

Out of context it sounds silly, but if you read the whole post it is clear that I mean that it didn't help Augusto in reaching a good starting position, as he could only manage a 0.029 faster than Priaulx. Maybe the best expression would have been 'proved to be useless for BMW'. It was a point to say that SEAT's advantage is not just down to teamwork, but also to an advantage brought by the engine (in Imola). BMW have had their advantages in Oschersleben, though. The championship is balanced now, it wasn't during the first 4 events (the first 3 towards SEAT, Pau towards BMW [mainly] and Chevy). A lot of mistakes were made and it's something everyone should reflect about.