BMW to quit the WTCC?

[helterskelter]

Originally Posted by gwyllion

But why don't they use a diesel in their manufacturer cars and sell a petrol powered car to customer teams? This works for Seat.

Because SEAT is not as estabilished as BMW in customer racing and they don't share the same philosophy: to BMW, the customers must be able to win the overall championship, if they prepare the car properly (Priaulx in 2003);to SEAT, it's just a business. The Leòn is said to be a lot cheaper than the 320si, too, also because the privateer BMWs are more up to date than the Leòns Tfsi [which is why I'm so ****ed about the new bodywork 'for works cars only'(yet)]

[THIM]

Originally Posted by Speed-King

I think BMW could sell a lot of cars in the latter category, if they created a turn-key and reasonably priced rival for Porsches 997 GT3 Cup...

Isn't Z4 what you mean?

[MarkkuAlen86]

I don't think the future is very bright for WTCC if BMW do leave.

Maybe BMW could provide Semi-Works backing to the top privateer teams, until the worst of the recession is over?

[Speed-King]

Originally Posted by THIM

Isn't Z4 what you mean?

The Z4M really was an exceptionally half-assed programme, maybe they could do it RIGHT this time?

[helgi]

And why should somebody 'help' Chevy? Put an one-leg person on the skate and kick him in the behind in the Olympic 100 m Final. If he wins would it be fair?
If they are not real sportsmen and can not win in fair play why don't they sit down and rivet small cars for some grandfathers to drive to the market?
BMW won their titles when no locomotives,oops,diesels were in sight. And when the Bureau tried to make all the tricks out of the books to 'equalize' diesels it all began. Nice trip to destroy on a diesel traction.

[helterskelter]

Originally Posted by helgi

And why should somebody 'help' Chevy? Put an one-leg person on the skate and kick him in the behind in the Olympic 100 m Final. If he wins would it be fair?
If they are not real sportsmen and can not win in fair play why don't they sit down and rivet small cars for some grandfathers to drive to the market?
BMW won their titles when no locomotives,oops,diesels were in sight. And when the Bureau tried to make all the tricks out of the books to 'equalize' diesels it all began. Nice trip to destroy on a diesel traction.

Let's take your example: if you want everyone to race with the same basic chances, you take 6 young men, give them the start and see who comes first; if you want different kinds of people to race, you have to give a lead skate to the 1 legged person, so that he has the same chanches as the people who have 2 legs.
Of course I agree that the diesels are killing the championship. But if you are talking about the purpose of equalization, then I gave you the answer that the whole TC racing is based on.

[helgi]

You may call me ascetic but I really prefer pure racing with strict regulations. It can be boring but I'm sure that the best driver-car-team won. Excuse me for DTM-example but technical regulations haven't been changed there for some years. They've only changed once basis weight as I remember.
Regulations must be the same for everybody. And what we see in WTCC? There's almost a special regulations for each car. It's the main fall. If every car is built on really common technical regulations then there wouldn't be any conflicts. Bureau wouldn't have to rewrite regulations every day. Give them one strict set of rules and 'ballast table' - 20kg for 20 points in race, 5kg - for 5 point. And no need in doctor, complicate things.
Now it looks like World Touring Cheaters Championship. And if I'm faster than third car in the second dozen I'll get 25,536 kg in 6 event from the end.

[helterskelter]

Originally Posted by helgi

You may call me ascetic but I really prefer pure racing with strict regulations. It can be boring but I'm sure that the best driver-car-team won. Excuse me for DTM-example but technical regulations haven't been changed there for some years. They've only changed once basis weight as I remember.
Regulations must be the same for everybody. And what we see in WTCC? There's almost a special regulations for each car. It's the main fall. If every car is built on really common technical regulations then there wouldn't be any conflicts. Bureau wouldn't have to rewrite regulations every day. Give them one strict set of rules and 'ballast table' - 20kg for 20 points in race, 5kg - for 5 point. And no need in doctor, complicate things.
Now it looks like World Touring Cheaters Championship. And if I'm faster than third car in the second dozen I'll get 25,536 kg in 6 event from the end.

DTM is a whole different thing. It's more of a GT racing than you would think. If you want to see that kind of championship, watch the one-make series: in my career in journalism I've seen both multi-brand and one make series very closely, and it's a whole different approach.
In Italy, customer BMWs dominated for 5 years because there was no compensation mechanism, which eventually lead to the death of the Italian championship. When it came back, we had 5 different cars of 4 brands, if I remember correctly, and each of them had a different set of rules. With one make series, you go testing, do the setup and go out.
That's the nature of multi-brand racing.

[stedevil]

Originally Posted by Hendrik

BMW wants to race and, most important, sell customer racing cars. Diesel race engines on WTCC level would be way too expensive and high-maintenance for customer racing, so they decided against diesel in WTCC.

Do note though that the costs are mainly related to development in combination with the ever changing rule set. If the rules could just settle then the cost would be similar to a Petrol engine.

Originally Posted by gwyllion

But why don't they use a diesel in their manufacturer cars and sell a petrol powered car to customer teams? This works for Seat.

Likely actual reason, their Diesels are not competitive on sprint distances and/or they are not interested in developing it currently (and with the weekly Diesel regs changes, who can blame them).

[stedevil]

Originally Posted by helterskelter

DTM is a whole different thing. It's more of a GT racing than you would think. If you want to see that kind of championship, watch the one-make series: in my career in journalism I've seen both multi-brand and one make series very closely, and it's a whole different approach.
In Italy, customer BMWs dominated for 5 years because there was no compensation mechanism, which eventually lead to the death of the Italian championship. When it came back, we had 5 different cars of 4 brands, if I remember correctly, and each of them had a different set of rules. With one make series, you go testing, do the setup and go out.
That's the nature of multi-brand racing.

Good summation.

[helgi]

As an engineer I can ensure that nobody is able to 'equalize' different cars. You can equal them by weight/power but different cars have different weight on axles,different body stiffness,different engine characteristics (moment and power/rpm),different aerodynamics. So,it's absolutely useless to 'equalize' them. You can spend lots of money to engine,transmission,suspension, etc 'equalization'. Or you can give list of modifications competitors can use in preparations for races. Just make teams know what they can do with the car,how deeply they can work with suspension for example.

Now it's all on entertainment or show on the track. The next step for Bureau - closed technical regulations like in nascar,where you can control everything to feed the intrigue. Pardon me,but I can't see BMW in nascrap.
Besides,it looks like communism - to equalize everybody and control everything and everyone is happy because races are so tight that nobody except Bureau knows who's going to win this time.
Horse racing..Almost nascar.

[helterskelter]

Originally Posted by stedevil

Likely actual reason, their Diesels are not competitive on sprint distances and/or they are not interested in developing it currently (and with the weekly Diesel regs changes, who can blame them).

Except that in a test last year Hernandez lapped 1.2s quicker in a diesel BMW. They did it to show how much a car could gain by using the turbo diesel. You can either believe it or not, but last year the rules were relatively stable and they could have developed it and win much more. But then it would have ended up like the Dtm, a BMW-Seat series, since Chevy and Lada would never have developed a diesel and therefore would have been far less competitive, quit the championship and make it become the World Diesel Cup. I'm thankful to BMW that they didn't develop a diesel: I want to watch racing cars, not mosquitos, on the track

[helterskelter]

Originally Posted by helgi

As an engineer I can ensure that nobody is able to 'equalize' different cars. You can equal them by weight/power but different cars have different weight on axles,different body stiffness,different engine characteristics (moment and power/rpm),different aerodynamics. So,it's absolutely useless to 'equalize' them. You can spend lots of money to engine,transmission,suspension, etc 'equalization'. Or you can give list of modifications competitors can use in preparations for races. Just make teams know what they can do with the car,how deeply they can work with suspension for example.

As a journalist, I can tell you that in 2007 at least 1 driver of EACH manufacturer came to the last race with a chance to win the championship. It's a hard job, but it has been done in the past. It will never happen that all the cars are perfectly equal on every track. You will always have a track that suits one particular car. Oschersleben - BMW, Monza - Leòn TDi, Porto - Chevrolet Lacetti, Valencia - AR 156, Imola - Honda Accord Euro R. But at the end of the year, when it comes down to the last race, they can be pretty much at the same level, because each car has had its moment of glory but hasn't completely outpaced everyone everywhere.
Imagine you are Eric Nève, Chevy's boss: you race for 1 year and you lose, you race the second year and you lose. Will you enter the championship the next year? No, you won't. Chevys are a disaster aerodinamically, and if you don't help them they will always be off the pace and you lose 3 cars and a works manufacturer.

[awrb]

Originally Posted by helterskelter

Except that in a test last year Hernandez lapped 1.2s quicker in a diesel BMW. They did it to show how much a car could gain by using the turbo diesel. You can either believe it or not, but last year the rules were relatively stable and they could have developed it and win much more. But then it would have ended up like the Dtm, a BMW-Seat series, since Chevy and Lada would never have developed a diesel and therefore would have been far less competitive, quit the championship and make it become the World Diesel Cup. I'm thankful to BMW that they didn't develop a diesel: I want to watch racing cars, not mosquitos, on the track

I don't buy that BMW didn't run it out of good faith. They, like everyone else, is in this for themselves. It could have been quick, but in a test it is impossible to say, and I certainly don't believe it was that fast. They would have run it if it was.

[stedevil]

Originally Posted by helterskelter

Except that in a test last year Hernandez lapped 1.2s quicker in a diesel BMW.

I can go out and "prove" that I can run 1,2s quicker around a track than any BMW can drive. If I can actually do it in a real race with unpartial scrutineering and all parties aiming to do their best, that is a completely different matter.

[helterskelter]

Sorry mates, it wasn't Hernandez, it was Porteiro. Some confusion between works and independents, sorry again.
Anyway, I don't think that a turbo diesel, especially with the technical freedom they had last year, would have been slower than a petrol. They just can't tell 60 people around the world that their cars are out of date, especially as they paid a few thousand euros to have them. BMW has a strong tradition in selling customer cars, which Seat don't have. It is a main feature of BMW Motorsport and they will always focus on that.

[Valenok]

If you talk about equalization system, you need to ban all works teams. They would say that this exactly this principle of equalization does not approach their car and they want to quiet. Every principle of equalization works in favour of one car, and other teams would be dissatisfied.
Correct system is in FIA GT3 - single type of transmission, power/weight ratio equalization system and no works teams.

[helterskelter]

Look at 2005, 2006 and 2007. It's true that BMW and Priaulx always won it, but the fact that a lot of drivers went to Macau with a chance to win the championship is as true, too. Equalisation IS possible, it has been done in the past and could still be done.
In 2008, the TDis come in and 2 guys arrive in Macau with a chance to win the championship and, for the first time ever, the last race is useless championship-wise because the World Champion has already been decided.
The problem is the TDi, not the works teams or the impossibility of equalization between the cars.

[FIRE]

...
We will continue our touring car and Formula BMW racing campaigns in 2010. This will be supplemented by our participation in ALMS and endurance races as well as our increasing activity in close-to-production customer sports.
...

https://www.press.bmw-motorsport.com...item=node__214

[Les]

as BMW's won't be able to race in the BTCC with the new regs and they are already in the WTCC I sort of get a feeling they may just start a new one-make championship.

[Adam43]

Increase activity might not mean more series, or even more cars, just trying harder with what you are already doing.

[Dead-Eye]

Close-to-production...that's could also be things like VLN and such, where BMWs are still the weapon of choice in most of the smaller classes.

[touring fan01]

Originally Posted by Les

as BMW's won't be able to race in the BTCC with the new regs and they are already in the WTCC I sort of get a feeling they may just start a new one-make championship.

(Not true, actually. The BTCC has already said that they will look at RWD if there is a commitment from BMW to compete.)

I guess cancelling their F1 program has saved their WTCC one.

[Icebaby]

Originally Posted by touring fan01

(Not true, actually. The BTCC has already said that they will look at RWD if there is a commitment from BMW to compete.)

I guess cancelling their F1 program has saved their WTCC one.

Spot on, if BMW approach Alan Gow coming in as manufacturers to the BTCC he will make concessions for them there is no doubt about it, I think BMW will indeed come in to the BTCC wth WSR, just a hunch.

[Sodemo]

Would there be much point in entering a works outfit when there will be no other manufacturers?