[BTCC] Races 25, 26 & 27 - Rockingham, Northamptionshire, 20th September 2009

[Tim Wilkinson]

Originally Posted by sceptic

You seem to be confusing BTCC and NASCAR.
There aren't "TV Safety Cars" in any form of UK motorsport. The insinuation that safety cars are deployed for commercial rather than safety reasons is an insult to the marshals and other volunteers who give up their time to ensure motorsport happens.

You seem to have misunderstood my point. I fully agree that safety cars are needed if people are working on track, and I fully appreciate the effort that those volunteers put in. But there have been incidents recently (unfortunately I can't recall specific examples) where there doesn't seem to have been any intervention required, yet a safety car is called and marshalls sent onto the track.

Maybe the TV coverage hasn't shown the real reasons, and I (and many others on here) are feeling cynical and assuming it's for "the show".

[touring fan01]

Originally Posted by Tim Wilkinson

You seem to have misunderstood my point. I fully agree that safety cars are needed if people are working on track, and I fully appreciate the effort that those volunteers put in. But there have been incidents recently (unfortunately I can't recall specific examples) where there doesn't seem to have been any intervention required, yet a safety car is called and marshalls sent onto the track.

Maybe the TV coverage hasn't shown the real reasons, and I (and many others on here) are feeling cynical and assuming it's for "the show".

Just because the camera doesn't sometimes show the reason why the Safety Car is brought out, doesn't mean its not been sent out for a valid reason. Or do you really think the marshals are all part of some sort of 'false safety car' conspiracy and just go out on the track to make it look like there is something that needs clearing up?

Its pretty insulting to the officials and marshals, for you or anyone to think they sometimes do their job just for 'show'.

[touringlegend]

To be fair even Tim Harvey and Ben Edwards insinuate that Alan Gow can demand safety cars randomly..

[Tim Wilkinson]

I'm not suggesting there are incidents where there's nothing there, but rather where that something doesn't appear to affect anyone's safety - and so "no intervention required".

No conspiracy claimed, either, but maybe a little eager to get a safety car out there when the situation doesn't require any action. But like you say, TV doesn't show everything, and I suppose it's better to err on the side of caution.

There's a lot more safety car periods in BTCC than would seem to be required in any other British saloon racing (if it was available for use). Maybe there's some similarities to NASCAR after all!!??!

Out of interest, Sceptic and touring fan, are you marshals, or otherwise involved in TOCA meets? If so, perhaps you can shed some light on the decision processes behind the SC getting called out.

[touring fan01]

Originally Posted by Tim Wilkinson

Out of interest, Sceptic and touring fan, are you marshals, or otherwise involved in TOCA meets? If so, perhaps you can shed some light on the decision processes behind the SC getting called out.

Its the same system at all race meetings, not unique to TOCA meetings;

Usually the chief marshal at the flag point will call in to race-control for a safety car if he thinks one is needed. The clerk of course will call for a safety car if he sees something on his monitor that may not have been seen by a marshal point, or has happened suddenly or dramatically.

[Steven Humphrey]

Regarding SCs, the initial call to race control is usually made by the post chief (or incident officer, if they have radios) at the time of the incident. Race control will then monitor the situation on cctv, if they can (most circuits have 100% cctv coverage) and make the decision whether to scramble the SC or not. If it's a big or multi car incident, the post chief will usually call for SC straight away. This is the same at every event, big or small.

Different circuits deal with incidents differently aswell. Some circuits are better designed to recover stranded cars than others so can snatch cars from gravel without the need for a SC. Some are too short to enable anything to be done without a SC. Oil spills will pretty much always result in a SC to clear it up (qualifying was red flagged after Hamilton's engine let go and about 6 cars went off on his oil!).

Remember that a SC is always the last resort but also that marshal's safety is paramount. Also remember that every incident and circuit is different and TV doesn't show everything. Maybe if drivers took more notice of yellow flags there would be less need for SCs.

[Speed-King]

And then: Does the Safety Car even help from an entertainment point of view?
In NASCAR, I'd say yes, but they usually race for 3hours and on oval courses where a spread out field is indeed boring to watch. But in BTCC? The races are short enough as they are and extended or multiple Safety Car periods "robb" the spectators of excitement instead of providing it.

DTM, on the other hand could do with some competition FCYs

[Icebaby]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

Do Turkington and Plato rate as 'A' alongside Giovanardi and Thompson?

A number of drivers (the 'B' level if you wish) have proven that they can pedal a car quickly. In this category, IMHO, can be listed Turkington, Plato, Jackson, Neal and many other drivers.

What sets Giovanardi and Thompson apart, to my mind, is that not only have they proven themselves in multiple cars/series but that they have also taken an under-performing car and driven forward the development to produce a title-winner..

I think this is a good summary of a catogery "A" driver, I remember Neal went to V8's for a one off event a few years ago and got slated for it by taking out some competitors by the media.

I agree there are far too many safety cars in BTCC, overboard really and at times does seem to be done to simply close the pack up, those that cause them, notably George does come back to the old argument whether "Gentleman" drivers have a place in a high profile series like BTCC.

Going back to Matt Neal, I was an avid supporter of his in the Primera years where he was indeed the giant killer running with manufacturers, he acted well both in/out of the car and this gave him many fans, move forward to now and for some reasons he's not the chap the fans cheer for that is now reserved for Paul O'Neill who has taken over from Matt.
No manufacturer ever took Matt as a driver (except Mazda briefly), I just wonder now if they saw he was not the complete package or catogory "A".

[Craner Curves]

I think the ego got bigger as he ended the ST days and that alienated a lot of people. The punt on Paul O'Neill at Brands in 2003 was the day his "People's Champion" mantra was lost to a lot of people.

re: my comments about knackered old Hondas and safety cars. The exception to the rule is the fantastic Mr O'Neill. I was being a bit cynical the other day, but the de rigeur John George-induced safety car is getting tiresome now.

[Alfa Fan]

Originally Posted by Craner Curves

I think the ego got bigger as he ended the ST days and that alienated a lot of people. The punt on Paul O'Neill at Brands in 2003 was the day his "People's Champion" mantra was lost to a lot of people.

re: my comments about knackered old Hondas and safety cars. The exception to the rule is the fantastic Mr O'Neill. I was being a bit cynical the other day, but the de rigeur John George-induced safety car is getting tiresome now.

I think if you actually look how many safery cars John's caused you'd be surprised. Not very many at all, especially not since the first couple of meetings.

[Hazard]

Nash out due to budget constraints. Will try and be back next year.

[touringlegend]

I see that on RML's twitter. Sounds like they are wanting a 3rd driver for Brands Hatch possibly to help Plato?

[Hazard]

Originally Posted by touringlegend

I see that on RML's twitter. Sounds like they are wanting a 3rd driver for Brands Hatch possibly to help Plato?

How much cash you got?

[aland]

yeah touringlegend as you sold the XR2 you must have a few bob, get in there

[touringlegend]

Not enough to cover the inevitable carnage damage.

[sceptic]

Originally Posted by arnage arnie

Regarding SCs, the initial call to race control is usually made by the post chief (or incident officer, if they have radios) at the time of the incident. Race control will then monitor the situation on cctv, if they can (most circuits have 100% cctv coverage) and make the decision whether to scramble the SC or not. If it's a big or multi car incident, the post chief will usually call for SC straight away. This is the same at every event, big or small.

Different circuits deal with incidents differently aswell. Some circuits are better designed to recover stranded cars than others so can snatch cars from gravel without the need for a SC. Some are too short to enable anything to be done without a SC. Oil spills will pretty much always result in a SC to clear it up (qualifying was red flagged after Hamilton's engine let go and about 6 cars went off on his oil!).

Remember that a SC is always the last resort but also that marshal's safety is paramount. Also remember that every incident and circuit is different and TV doesn't show everything. Maybe if drivers took more notice of yellow flags there would be less need for SCs.

Remember that during a televised BTCC or BSB meeting, race control can see all of the TV cameras, not just the one which is broadcast. These give much better coverage than the CCTV cameras which most circuits now have.

Obviously the more information that race control has, the better, and faster it can react to a situation. There are doubtless many occasions at club meetings where a SC should be deployed but isn't because those in race control aren't aware of the extent of the incident, or where a safety car is deployed a lap later than it should be because they are waiting for a report from the marshal's post. We don't know about them because they aren't on TV.

Rockingham probably sees more safety cars than other circuits because there are no snatch vehicles, other than at the Tarzan hairpin, so cars beached in the gravel can't be quickly extracted.

[Minicross424]

Clio Champ hinted he may race in the final round at Brands........

[FIRE]

Originally Posted by Minicross424

Clio Champ hinted he may race in the final round at Brands........

RML Chevy?

[FIRE]

Well done Jelly. With the view on next season this is a great result.

Nice to see Herbert being a quick learner.

Originally Posted by Ed Peters

No.... Gordon Shedden added: “We will be ready to race at Rockingham, and I am grateful to all of my sponsors for making this happen. The support from Cartridge World, Club SEAT, FFDR, QServ, Apex Tubulars and Paradigm has given me great confidence.
The car is now owned by Shedden although it may be run by GR Asia!

Isn't SEAT behind Club SEAT?

Originally Posted by Speed-King

And then: Does the Safety Car even help from an entertainment point of view?
In NASCAR, I'd say yes, but they usually race for 3hours and on oval courses where a spread out field is indeed boring to watch. But in BTCC? The races are short enough as they are and extended or multiple Safety Car periods "robb" the spectators of excitement instead of providing it.

Agree.

Originally Posted by Speed-King

DTM, on the other hand could do with some competition FCYs

Yeah

[Icebaby]

Nash has done a very good job and has made the most of the package and given back well to his sponsers, I hope he finds the budget for next year although we all know how hard this can be.

Its a great shame drives like Nash,McMillian to name but two struggle to make the full year, we needs drivers like this to return more so than some who participate in the full year.

[KA]

Originally Posted by FIRE

RML Chevy?

Autosport suggest 'Glew has been linked with the WSR-run RAC BMW squad....'

but do they mean for 2010.....?

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by KA

Autosport suggest 'Glew has been linked with the WSR-run RAC BMW squad....'

but do they mean for 2010.....?

A thought:- Reid's results have failed to set the world on fire and he's probably costing a fair bit to put in the seat.
With the car already entered, could WSR consider giving Glew a trial in the third seat, at less cost than Reid, with a view to both helping Turkington this year and lining up a drive for next?

[Steven Humphrey]

Originally Posted by sceptic

Rockingham probably sees more safety cars than other circuits because there are no snatch vehicles, other than at the Tarzan hairpin, so cars beached in the gravel can't be quickly extracted.

The Rockingham safety crew vehicles are capable of snatching aswell but they're more geared towards incidents on the oval so they're not that great at live snatches. On the other hand, race control have got a full view of the circuit so can react quicker than most.

You do get a different side of things as a marshal. For instance, during the 2nd FRenault race last weekend, the tv commentators were complaining about the time it took to get the SC out after the 2 car incident just after Tarzan. I was at Tarzan and the incident was halfway down the field so by the time the dust had settled the pack was nearly on the start/finish straight so there was no time to get the SC car out safely on that lap. The boards & flags were all out early in the 2nd lap and we were frantically waving for the cars to slow down at Tarzan before they came across a debris strewn track. But racing drivers being racing drivers they didn't really slow and had to swerve around bits of car, causing critical comments from the commentators about lack of SC, which was out and waiting for the field to finish the lap.

[Icebaby]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

A thought:- Reid's results have failed to set the world on fire and he's probably costing a fair bit to put in the seat.
With the car already entered, could WSR consider giving Glew a trial in the third seat, at less cost than Reid, with a view to both helping Turkington this year and lining up a drive for next?

Thats a possible for sure based on Reids performance at Rockingham being the only true measure as he had the time in the car from silverstone and less weight for his second appearance, he is struggling.

I'm not sure Reid is actually being paid rather than it being a freebie IMO with BMW funding the third car, just a hunch though.

Glew will need to find more money as he said for a 2010 run, many champions of the Clios have failed to make it who have been as good as Glew so the odds are against him.

[touring fan01]

Originally Posted by Icebaby

Thats a possible for sure based on Reids performance at Rockingham being the only true measure as he had the time in the car from silverstone and less weight for his second appearance, he is struggling.

Yeah. Funny how all the Reid fans have gone silent on his performances. Let's face it he has been nothing short of hopeless and his team mates have made him look very ordinary even when they have carried more ballast weight than him. I bet we won't see him in the car at Brands.