Good idea?

[Steve Fox]

There must be loads of good Marshaling ideas that are particular to some circuits but that others don't adopt, Can anyone tell me why this board, spotted on post along with the usual sc and hazard boards, at Castle Combe is not a fantastic idea? How many stories are told of Marshals waving bottles above their heads like bizarre weightlifters when all you need is this:

[MagnetON]

I would have thought that the flames and smoke were the clue in that case!

[Roger Lovelock]

Originally Posted by MagnetON

I would have thought that the flames and smoke were the clue in that case!

Drivers can't see all the way round their vehicles and tend not to see the flames and smoke until the fire becomes big. The drivers I have spoken to like the signs so yes they are a great idea as it's easier to put out a small fire

[Guinness2702]

Originally Posted by Steve Fox

Can anyone tell me why this board, spotted on post along with the usual sc and hazard boards, at Castle Combe is not a fantastic idea?

To an extent, it's the same reason that numbers are displayed with the startline-only flags - i.e. if the driver doesn't know it's for him, how will it help / what happens if the wrong driver sees it.

Also, wouldn't there be better things to say - "you're leaking oil" springs to mind, which given the frequency it occurs compared to "car on fire" is probably considerably more dangerous (not to mention hard work to deal with in several ways), than the rare "car on fire"

Finally, given the short amount of time a flaggie has to judge the situation and make a decision and display the board, before he's out of field-of-view, should the flaggie have this board held in hand at all times, instead of a yellow or blue, ready to whip it out with Jedi-like reflexes, when needed.

I'm not saying it's a bad idea, it's just that IMHO, it's not a *great* one.

[Steve Fox]

Originally Posted by Guinness2702

given the short amount of time a flaggie has to judge the situation and make a decision and display the board, before he's out of field-of-view, should the flaggie have this board held in hand at all times, instead of a yellow or blue, ready to whip it out with Jedi-like reflexes, when needed.

Hmm, I'm not 100% convinced, last year we all watched a Lotus do several laps whilst ablase finally to be halted by a brave Marshal practically jumping out in from of him with a bottle. There would have been, what, 12, 13 maybe more opportunities to show him a board like that every lap.

[deley]

Originally Posted by Steve Fox

There must be loads of good Marshaling ideas that are particular to some circuits but that others don't adopt, Can anyone tell me why this board, spotted on post along with the usual sc and hazard boards, at Castle Combe is not a fantastic idea? How many stories are told of Marshals waving bottles above their heads like bizarre weightlifters when all you need is this:

here's a previous thread on this http://tentenths.com/forum/showthread.php?t=124152

Dave

[m1fcf]

in principal, it is a good idea, but, in execution, there are other things that will need to be told to a driver before 'car on fire', and all of them presumably can be indicated with Black'n'Orange flag and a car number at the startline.

If the driver chooses to ignore the flags on the startline, what do we expect them to do with a board waved at them as they go past?

[Guinness2702]

Originally Posted by Steve Fox

Hmm, I'm not 100% convinced, last year we all watched a Lotus do several laps whilst ablase finally to be halted by a brave Marshal practically jumping out in from of him with a bottle. There would have been, what, 12, 13 maybe more opportunities to show him a board like that every lap.

m1cf beat me to it, but ISTM that a black and orange could (should?) have been shown to the driver, whereupon pit lane marshals with their ample supply of bottles and handy speed limit could have been employed without the risk of jumping out in front of the car.

I'm not trying to criticise people here ... my point is that a special board for car on fire is unnecessary....and lets face it, if the car has been burning for several laps without the driver noticing, then either it's not that big a deal, or it's only going to become a big deal when he actually stops the car.

[Ian Briggs]

Probably a bit too much writing, but adding....

Please dont stop at the flaggies, they dont have any extinguishers.....

seen that more than once

[Guinness2702]

Originally Posted by Ian Briggs

Probably a bit too much writing, but adding....

Please dont stop at the flaggies, they dont have any extinguishers.....

seen that more than once

... but at most circuits, what the *do* have is incident marshals!

[Woolley]

There's a technical point that seems to be being overlooked when suggesting other messages might be more useful. Most messages regarding car problems mean 'pull off the circuit as soon as you can'. Meatball flag means return to the pits (and how I wish we adopted the American system of showing the black flag before the last corner so it's immediately before the pits entrance instead of at the start line which is immediately after the pits entrance). However 'car on fire' means 'pull off right next to someone in orange who can put it out for you.'

[Guinness2702]

Originally Posted by Woolley

THowever 'car on fire' means 'pull off right next to someone in orange who can put it out for you.'

True enough, but why can't we have a "you're leaking, please get off the black stuff" message, and how do you ensure that the right driver and only the right driver gets the message.

[Woolley]

We could have lots of boards with different messages on, or even play charades, however I can see where the car on fire message is useful because it's the only one which is directing the driver to do something specific when he gets off the track, rather than just getting off the track. Appropriate pointing should work fine - any blue flag marshal will tell you how effective that can be.

Of course, we all know that the probably result will be for the driver to park equi-distant between the two most widely spaced marshals, probably on the other side of the track!

[numbersix]

Originally Posted by Woolley

... or even play charades...!

That's ma' breakfast all over the keyboard again.


This business of teaming experienced marshals with the lesser experienced based on grades alone needs revisiting.

Everyone knows that all marshals fall into the category of "racing snake" or "silver-back gorilla". Silver-backs are brilliant at waving extinguishers like hankie flappers at a regency ball. We don't need extra boards, just good team management.

[Woolley]

Originally Posted by numbersix

That's ma' breakfast all over the keyboard again.

I was briefly infamous for my mime indicating that 'car 24 is peeing fuel on the track' to the observer on the other side!

[numbersix]

Originally Posted by Woolley

I was briefly infamous for my mime indicating that 'car 24 is peeing fuel on the track' to the observer on the other side!

...an' that's ma' lunch as well. Naff off will ya!

[TwoSheds]

Originally Posted by Woolley

I was briefly infamous for my mime indicating that 'car 24 is peeing fuel on the track' to the observer on the other side!

Using one or more of these?

http://michiganturnmarshals.org/trai...andSignals.htm

[Dave Weston]

Marshalling at Combe my team have used the "car on fire" board 3 times since they were introduced; each time the driver was not aware of the fire as they were in all rear engined cars with the fire underneath at the back (2 ferraris and a gt). All 3 times we have been thanked by the driver for showing the board before the fires went out of control.

With Combe you also have good communication between Race Control, Startline and the marshal posts and good visibility around a large proportion of the track whichever post you are on. This can help Post Chiefs to identify and locate a circulating car on fire if the number / make / colour etc has been called in via the radio / telephone system and get the board out to show the driver. In addition, the posts are so close to the track that the drivers "should" not fail to see the boards displayed, especially before the Esses and Bobbies, both points which give the drivers a chance to pull off on the old circuit next to marshals with bottles.

Obviously, this does rely quite a bit on the correct driver being shown and acknowledging the board, but as it is a step towards improved safety and reduced repair costs, then I see it as a good thing. I can think of 2 other situations at other circuits I have been present at which could have benefitted from such a board.

That said, going back to my earlier point, the posts at those circuits are further away from the track than the ones at Combe so it would have been more difficult to have put the information across, had a board been available.

So.....good idea for Combe and other tracks where the posts are close to the track, may not work quite as well at circuits where they aren't.

[Chigley]

How to cause confusion.
Marshals posts don't have number boards to identify the car, so if the car on fire is at the back of the pack, red boards are displayed to the pack and they all twitch/stop racing because they don't know who the board is displayed to. A driver who is unfamiliar with the circuit suddenly getting something red waved at him ..... !

Combe using non MSA approved equipment.

[Dave Brand]

Originally Posted by Chigley

red boards are displayed to the pack and they all twitch/stop racing because they don't know who the board is displayed to. A driver who is unfamiliar with the circuit suddenly getting something red waved at him ..... !

Good choice of colour - no way it's going to be confused with any flag, is there?

[skeee]

Originally Posted by Guinness2702

m1cf beat me to it, but ISTM that a black and orange could (should?) have been shown to the driver, whereupon pit lane marshals with their ample supply of bottles and handy speed limit could have been employed without the risk of jumping out in front of the car.

I'm not trying to criticise people here ... my point is that a special board for car on fire is unnecessary....and lets face it, if the car has been burning for several laps without the driver noticing, then either it's not that big a deal, or it's only going to become a big deal when he actually stops the car.

I disagree!

If it is I you are referring to then I can I state I did not jump out in front of the car, but stood in between the armco/tyrewall gap whilst I frantically waved the fire bottle. Partly due to embarrassment as my comment re the "Lotus has a big turbo flame out down at Graham Hill bend" was replied with "they aint any turbos out there you ***t!"

As it came up Paddock Hill next lap the "turbo" fire was now the entire back end! Thanks to post 6 who did the same and the Lotus pulled off at post 7. Luckily this was only on the shorter Indy circuit. At longer circuits like Combe or Thruxton it could have been more interesting!

[Guinness2702]

Originally Posted by skeee

If it is I you are referring to then I can I state I did not jump out in front of the car

I wasn't referring to anyone in particular, just the description somebody else gave (so you'll have to ask Steve Fox who I'm referring to) and I made it very clear that I wasn't attempting to criticise anyone.

My point was that a B/O would have obviated the need for any jumping out which may or may not have been done by one marshal or another or not.

[skeee]

Originally Posted by Guinness2702

............... a B/O would have obviated the need for any jumping out..................

Absolutely would agree if the B&O flag was shown before the pit entrance but it's shown at the start-line so the poor car has to burn for (at least) another lap. At most circuits that's a long way when you're on fire.

I agree with the original comment that the boards are a good idea and to willingly let a car burn is not.

In the case of last year's Lotus the fist size fire on the first lap had grown to bigger than a beach-ball size one lap later, with another half lap to go to reach the pit lane. That's assuming the driver has seen the flag.
Perhaps this should be posted in the driver's forum. I doubt there'd be any negative comments there?

[Steve Fox]

I'm not going to go into how Castle Combe Marshals clear up oil spills in the pouring rain, except to note that they do. Actually the point of the thread wasn't really whether or not the "car on fire" board was a good idea, clearly it is although I (and some others I'm thinking) would have gone for a yellow board with red writing, the only debate was it's efficacy over the meatball flag (with which I assume it is also employed) The point of the thread was to try to uncover some other tricks that some circuits use that may bring advantages to other circuits. There must be some tips that others can share?

[PRS RH01]

As a driver and having dropped the odd bit of oil over the years ,the last time at Oulton (rocker onto exhaust in a formula ford ) i can confirm that you are not always awear of the problem so the idea of signals at the post before the pit entrance makes a lot of sense it would only have to be the black and orange with your number . At Oulton the logical point would be the post just after the Bailey bridge on the right they always look board you have time as a driver to check your gauges and look at that post before thinking about Lodge and your not having to defend the lead as any move has happened or is happening at lodge . anyone who knows me knows im always at the front .oh sorry thats to the bar !. Just as a point were it is at the moment the black flag disappears into the back ground when the sun is low .

Peter

Have a fun and safe weekend folks