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Old 8 Dec 2009, 02:08 (Ref:2595878)   #26
mildura1963
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So if I am reading right there will be no Honda's racing in 2010?
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Old 8 Dec 2009, 02:20 (Ref:2595885)   #27
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I don't think the DTM and Super GT are looking to combine the two series. They are just looking for common rules so DTM cars and GT500 cars can race against each other on equal footing.

This will allow Toyota to build one car, brand it Lexus and race in Germany and brand it Toyota to race in Japan. That way DTM gets its third manufacturer without actually changing its tech regulations too much. Private teams may also buy cars and race in either series.

What they could do is to have joint end of season races in markets they are interested in, like USA (California) and/or China. Super GT and DTM raced in these markets in 2004, though not really very successfully... but if they combine their resources, they could then do it properly I think.
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Old 8 Dec 2009, 03:03 (Ref:2595894)   #28
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So Super GT cars use carbon chassis now instead of the older regs of having to use the production cars unitbody between the front and rear firewalls(a la, FIA/ACO GT1)? But then again, DTM cars have used a carbon monocoque/tube frame chassis since 2000 when it started back up, so Super GT(If carbon monocoque/tube frame hybrid chassis are allowed) have a lot in common with a DTM car.

It seems that aero(DTM cars with their winglets and dive planes) and engines(DTM standardizing on 4.0 flat crank V8s, with Toyota using a 3.4 flat crank V8, Nissan using a 4.5 flat crank stock block VK45 based V8, and Honda with their stock block 3.4 V6) are the big sticking points.

But what are the aero regs as far as front and read diffusers between DTM and Super GT-I know that Super GT cars use LMP900/675 like front diffusers, and GT1 like flat bottoms with rear diffusers, but I don't know about DTM with the front diffuser(one of the reasons that GT1 cars can't corner as fast as Super GT cars is their limited front diffuser effectiveness).
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Old 8 Dec 2009, 05:15 (Ref:2595910)   #29
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So Super GT cars use carbon chassis now instead of the older regs of having to use the production cars unitbody between the front and rear firewalls(a la, FIA/ACO GT1)? But then again, DTM cars have used a carbon monocoque/tube frame chassis since 2000 when it started back up, so Super GT(If carbon monocoque/tube frame hybrid chassis are allowed) have a lot in common with a DTM car.

It seems that aero(DTM cars with their winglets and dive planes) and engines(DTM standardizing on 4.0 flat crank V8s, with Toyota using a 3.4 flat crank V8, Nissan using a 4.5 flat crank stock block VK45 based V8, and Honda with their stock block 3.4 V6) are the big sticking points.

But what are the aero regs as far as front and read diffusers between DTM and Super GT-I know that Super GT cars use LMP900/675 like front diffusers, and GT1 like flat bottoms with rear diffusers, but I don't know about DTM with the front diffuser(one of the reasons that GT1 cars can't corner as fast as Super GT cars is their limited front diffuser effectiveness).
AFAIK, super GT cars still have to have the passenger area from the original street car.
Regs for this/next year are for a 3.4L V8 that is common to Formula nippon and LeMans 2011 regs IIRC, hence why Toyota ditched their bigger V8. Nissan was given a concession this year I believe.

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I don't think the DTM and Super GT are looking to combine the two series. They are just looking for common rules so DTM cars and GT500 cars can race against each other on equal footing.

This will allow Toyota to build one car, brand it Lexus and race in Germany and brand it Toyota to race in Japan. That way DTM gets its third manufacturer without actually changing its tech regulations too much. Private teams may also buy cars and race in either series.

What they could do is to have joint end of season races in markets they are interested in, like USA (California) and/or China. Super GT and DTM raced in these markets in 2004, though not really very successfully... but if they combine their resources, they could then do it properly I think.
Toyota already race their Super GT cars as Lexus. The SC replaced the Supra since 2006. There are 2 Lexus IS that race alongside the axio GTs as well in the GT300 class. You are right though about them probably not joining up series.
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Old 8 Dec 2009, 15:04 (Ref:2596104)   #30
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Equalising power-to-weight ratio isn't enough. Downforce, weight distribution, power curve, brakes, suspension... all those variables matter. Ballasting the fastest car won't necessarily make them compatible.

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we could call the new series "Grand Touring Masters"
That name sounds great!
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Old 8 Dec 2009, 18:40 (Ref:2596211)   #31
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Honda is continuing in Super GT with the front-engined NSX-replacement concept that was shown a few years ago. It had a V10 and 4WD but the road car development was cancelled while the race car program should go with the IRL-Nippon V8. The Honda factory drivers are still expecting drives for next year.

Super GT's an example of a 3-manufacturer championship working very well for more than 10 years in full-blown form and equality always being maintained with very different machinery. I don't think there was a year in the current decade when one of them didn't win at least a race. I guess it helps not to have a manufacturer like Mercedes around eager to outspend and nuke everybody...
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Old 8 Dec 2009, 19:19 (Ref:2596240)   #32
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Honda is continuing in Super GT with the front-engined NSX-replacement concept that was shown a few years ago. It had a V10 and 4WD but the road car development was cancelled while the race car program should go with the IRL-Nippon V8. The Honda factory drivers are still expecting drives for next year.

Super GT's an example of a 3-manufacturer championship working very well for more than 10 years in full-blown form and equality always being maintained with very different machinery. I don't think there was a year in the current decade when one of them didn't win at least a race. I guess it helps not to have a manufacturer like Mercedes around eager to outspend and nuke everybody...
Mercedes would have their asses handed to them on a platter by the super gt cars.
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Old 8 Dec 2009, 19:45 (Ref:2596252)   #33
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Do the rules allow them to race a car that they do not make????
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Old 8 Dec 2009, 22:20 (Ref:2596350)   #34
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Do the rules allow them to race a car that they do not make????
it's not like the other main cars are that closely linked to their road-going likenesses.

Hence, I'd be a bit disappointed if this comes off, though it would make some sense - still, in my ideal world everyone would just build cars to GT2 rules
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Old 9 Dec 2009, 02:23 (Ref:2596435)   #35
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Do the rules allow them to race a car that they do not make????
Yes, "Car that JAF especially admitted" can become a base vehicle in 2010.
And, it was announced that the car named "HSV-010" of Honda had been especially admitted.
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Old 9 Dec 2009, 02:30 (Ref:2596438)   #36
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mildura1963 should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
It is a sad day when Honda do not make a car that they can race, I know the race cars have extremely little to do with road cars but it is still a shame.
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Old 9 Dec 2009, 06:33 (Ref:2596473)   #37
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It is a sad day when Honda do not make a car that they can race, I know the race cars have extremely little to do with road cars but it is still a shame.
Their CEO has basically cut of their nuts and thrown em to the sharks.
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Old 9 Dec 2009, 08:53 (Ref:2596522)   #38
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It is a sad day when Honda do not make a car that they can race, I know the race cars have extremely little to do with road cars but it is still a shame.
its a long shot, but maybe Honda will bring the road car back out once they figure out how to make it "green" ....then they wouldnt need an exception to run its chassis anymore

seeing as all the DTM and SGT manufacturers are interested in alternative tech, does anyone see that being allowed in down the track? the ex-GT500 Supra HV-R seemed to work pretty well

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Old 9 Dec 2009, 17:04 (Ref:2596773)   #39
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its a long shot, but maybe Honda will bring the road car back out once they figure out how to make it "green" ....then they wouldnt need an exception to run its chassis anymore

seeing as all the DTM and SGT manufacturers are interested in alternative tech, does anyone see that being allowed in down the track? the ex-GT500 Supra HV-R seemed to work pretty well

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According to sources, Acura dealers are being told that going forward, Acura will be abandoning the "Tier 1" initiative. The new focus is said to be "Smart Luxury".
http://www.vtec.net/news/news-item?news_item_id=866545

* The dealers have been told that the NSX replacement is no longer in a holding pattern - it's pretty much dead for good.

* The next RL will be a hybrid, and there is virtually zero chance of seeing a V8.

* Acura is developing a new V6 series as the J-series has reached its limits

* Acura is working on a smaller entry level vehicle that will slot in below the TSX, though the timetable is unknown (Editor's note: if it's been planned and approved, then it should join the lineup within 3 years)
* Acura is currently mum on any diesel plans
****sigh****
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Old 9 Dec 2009, 20:13 (Ref:2596877)   #40
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That name sounds great!
And is already taken for the German GT3 series.

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Mercedes would have their asses handed to them on a platter by the super gt cars.
Nonsense. Of course a DTM C-Class would, because it's a different set of regs, but a Mercedes car built to Super GT rules wouldn't.
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Old 9 Dec 2009, 20:40 (Ref:2596896)   #41
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["Grand Touring Masters"] is already taken for the German GT3 series.
Oops! The ACO could buy the name from SRO, anyway. (Opos 2x! The ADAC has several "Masters" championships)

Actually, we should first discuss whether this mashup would create touring cars or grand tourers. In my opinion, it only depends on whether sedan or coupé bodies are used.

And what about "Super Touring Masters"? 1990s Supertouring cars are dead, so the name is free.
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Old 9 Dec 2009, 20:48 (Ref:2596898)   #42
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mildura1963 should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
I am guessing the new Honda CRZ will be too small to make into a GT type car?
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Old 9 Dec 2009, 21:22 (Ref:2596921)   #43
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That's right, mildura1963. It might qualify for GT6 or GT7, though... :P
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Old 9 Dec 2009, 22:14 (Ref:2596948)   #44
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Mercedes is coming up with a racing SLS, so it should be GT regs. They have known for a while that the current DTM isn't going anywhere; and it would be easier to attract others with GTs instead of with luxury sedans with race engines. Cars frozen this year; disappearing next year?

Bernd Schneider looks pretty involved with the SLS; he was at Laguna Seca for a press event talking about the upcoming Black version and how much he would like to race this car...
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Old 9 Dec 2009, 23:07 (Ref:2596978)   #45
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Mercedes is coming up with a racing SLS, so it should be GT regs. They have known for a while that the current DTM isn't going anywhere; and it would be easier to attract others with GTs instead of with luxury sedans with race engines. Cars frozen this year; disappearing next year?
A big part of the appeal for Mercedes and Audi is that they can claim a relationship between the race cars and those the average consumer (not one who can afford the SLS) can buy. Of course, we know that a DTM car doesn't have anything in common with the road car, but the average viewer doesn't.
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Old 10 Dec 2009, 13:31 (Ref:2597281)   #46
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Dead-Eye, the carmakers' speech is sometimes different: if we can build these insane beasts, we can surely make great road cars.
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Old 10 Dec 2009, 14:47 (Ref:2597322)   #47
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SuperGT already has exemptions for certain sedan model cars in GT300. Examples form recent memory include: Lexus IS350 (MR), Toyota Corolla Axio (MR), Subaru Legacy (FR), Subaru Impreza (FR and 4WD!) SuperGT is an extreme example of equivalency formulas and success penalties; a diametric opposite to the near-spec nature of DTM. I think it's the fundamental regulatory differences that would make a marriage of the two series difficult.

However, GT500 is becoming more and more strict in its regulations and with some performance parity, there is no reason DTM cars couldn't run alongside the GT500 cars. Of course you could argue that no parity is necessary and DTM could represent a third class in the series, running their own points championship. I don't know that DTM's sponsors would be happy with less than 1/3 of the airtime, though with a much broader audience.

In fact, I hope they do just throw in DTM in the mix. I think it could make for a fascinating series. Super GTs (GT500 - they're really GTPs tho, aren't they?), Super Touring Cars (DTM), and the smorgasbord of machines known as GT300. Lexus, Nissan and BMW could build DTM-spec sedans to race with the Audis and Mercs, maybe Benz will want to build a GT500-spec SLS? (Although FIA/ACO seems like a better match for that car)
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Old 10 Dec 2009, 15:39 (Ref:2597342)   #48
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The original news is that BMW is talking with the ITR (DTM), JAF (Super GT), ACO and FIA about running their ALMS M3. So that means entering a "real" GT in some unconventional championships and either changing the rules so they're more inline with real GTs, or BMW thinking of making a Super GT/DTM prototype out of its GT2 car.
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Old 10 Dec 2009, 23:20 (Ref:2597559)   #49
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Dead-Eye, the carmakers' speech is sometimes different: if we can build these insane beasts, we can surely make great road cars.
In the German media they actually talk about how similar the DTM cars are to their roadgoing counterparts. That's also the reason they went from coupes to saloons in the first place.
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Old 11 Dec 2009, 02:09 (Ref:2597638)   #50
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In the German media they actually talk about how similar the DTM cars are to their roadgoing counterparts.
Mercedes and Audi PR doing their job....
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