LMS Final: Estoril

**joeb** · 23 Sep 2011, 16:55 (Ref:2960034)

Since nobody has started a race thread I thought I'd throw one up.

Cars are on track now

Timing and Scoring

The first practice saw Pesca at the top, Greaves in P2, and the JMW Ferrari ahead in GTE

Victor_RO · 23 Sep 2011, 16:56 (Ref:2960036)

As ever, better T&S: http://livetiming.alkamelsystems.com/lms/

Simmi · 23 Sep 2011, 18:46 (Ref:2960073)

There's a race on this weekend!!!?? Just kidding, but that's kind of what it feels like. A real shame to see this event almost written off by many in a sense. I would definitely have watched a web stream if there was one kicking about?

Is this where the LMS is going? Very poor exposure at a time you'd think they'd be pulling out all the stops ahead of a make or break season.

JHamilton · 23 Sep 2011, 19:07 (Ref:2960080)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Simmi

There's a race on this weekend!!!?? Just kidding, but that's kind of what it feels like. A real shame to see this event almost written off by many in a sense. I would definitely have watched a web stream if there was one kicking about?

Is this where the LMS is going? Very poor exposure at a time you'd think they'd be pulling out all the stops ahead of a make or break season.

**** poor scheduling. More coordination (or cooperation) and a bit of common sense will go a long way.

fieldodreams79 · 23 Sep 2011, 19:23 (Ref:2960089)

^It is utterly ridiculous to schedule an event this close to a major overseas event. But what do I know?

AGD · 23 Sep 2011, 19:30 (Ref:2960092)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Simmi

There's a race on this weekend!!!?? Just kidding, but that's kind of what it feels like. A real shame to see this event almost written off by many in a sense. I would definitely have watched a web stream if there was one kicking about?

Is this where the LMS is going? Very poor exposure at a time you'd think they'd be pulling out all the stops ahead of a make or break season.

Supposedly (I'm not sure if I believe it) there aren't even cameras covering this race so I think you can scratch off any hopes of a web stream. RLM is covering the race though.

As far as the direction of the LMS, I think they have made it pretty clear that they are essentially a high level club racing series. Follow the series if you want, but they aren't going to make it a Broadway production to say the least. I can respect that in some ways, but it is tough! I enjoy the LMS (the best LMP2 racing around and GTE-Pro is quite good too), but anyway, it's not like us Americans are used to getting any coverage of the LMS beyond RLM so it's business as usual for us.

courageous · 23 Sep 2011, 19:47 (Ref:2960109)

There are camera crews there.

I am finding it hard to get excited for this weekend - it just doesn't compare well with it's schedule neighbours Baltimore, Silverstone, Laguna Seca & Petit Le Mans.

Estoril is just a meh track & the entry is the weakest ACO racing has seen in a long time.

Shame because this is the farewell to LMP1s for LMS & the championship is really close

vyselegend · 23 Sep 2011, 19:49 (Ref:2960110)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Simmi

There's a race on this weekend!!!?? Just kidding, but that's kind of what it feels like. A real shame to see this event almost written off by many in a sense. I would definitely have watched a web stream if there was one kicking about?

Is this where the LMS is going? Very poor exposure at a time you'd think they'd be pulling out all the stops ahead of a make or break season.

I somehow feels the same, but I'd put the blame on the organisers for disgusting the fans over years of poor management, rather than blaming the fans for getting bored. (not saying you did that though).

I for one have been happy to attend LMS races, and sincerely saw much value in it, as those races were something like Le MAns appetisers. But whenever you're not able to go to the track, you're suddently facing a T&S screen, and most often even justin TV can't help you getting a sight of the action, yet this is essential for any race addict isn't it?

Furthermore now they've officialised their serie is going to be for amateurs, and without LMP1, it soon won't have anything to do with Le Mans racing anymore.

This certainly doesn't help getting excited about the races...

I'm going to follow the race with any available means though, but I'm not feeling exited about it, really...

EDIT:People are rude with ALMS P1 and it's "Lola waivered class", and I agree Rebellion versus Pescarolo has more style, but I'm enjoying seeing the battle between the Dysons and the AMR and Cytosport cars in the corkscrew and other exiting corners of laguna, whilst the LMS battle will be tastless on the live timing.

AGD · 23 Sep 2011, 19:53 (Ref:2960115)

Quote:

Originally Posted by courageous

There are camera crews there.

I am finding it hard to get excited for this weekend - it just doesn't compare well with it's schedule neighbours Baltimore, Silverstone, Laguna Seca & Petit Le Mans.

Estoril is just a meh track & the entry is the weakest ACO racing has seen in a long time.

Shame because this is the farewell to LMP1s for LMS & the championship is really close

The entry list is weak to say the least, but is it really any worse than your average ALMS race this year?

LMP1: Slight advantage to Estoril. At least they aren't all Lolas.

LMP2: Huge advantage to the LMS here. I don't need to explain this.

GTE-Pro: Ok, no Corvette or BMW at Estoril, but the Porsches and Ferraris are top notch. AF Corse is probably better than Risi at this point and JMW and Farnbacher are better than ESM. Aston is surely better than RSR Jaguar.

GTE-Am: Better than GTC.

LMPC: Who cares.

Purist · 23 Sep 2011, 20:36 (Ref:2960140)

It would help if Tilke hadn't gotten a hold of Estoril when they went to modify things for MotoGP back in 1999-2000. Those opening two turns used to be a fearsome start to the lap.

I'll take 27 cars, though it would have been nice if Schnitzer had sent an M3 to keep the other GTs just a bit more honest.

Hopefully the Rebellion or Pescarolo can break the 2002 record set by the Oreca-run Dallara LMP Judd: a lap of 1:29.401.

JAG · 23 Sep 2011, 21:06 (Ref:2960155)

Quote:

Originally Posted by AGD

The entry list is weak to say the least, but is it really any worse than your average ALMS race this year?

LMP1: Slight advantage to Estoril. At least they aren't all Lolas.

LMP2: Huge advantage to the LMS here. I don't need to explain this.

GTE-Pro: Ok, no Corvette or BMW at Estoril, but the Porsches and Ferraris are top notch. AF Corse is probably better than Risi at this point and JMW and Farnbacher are better than ESM. Aston is surely better than RSR Jaguar.

GTE-Am: Better than GTC.

LMPC: Who cares.

The entr list is only part of the equation, when you follow an ALMS race it feels like you're watching an international sportscar event, the LMS feels closer to the Dutch Supercar Challenge or British GT's annual visit to Spa.

All is not lost, as I said in another thread if the series visits smaller, characterful northern European tracks like Brands, Assen and Zandvoort they could put on a great show (for those who know about it) if they capitalise on what makes them distinct from the competion, their prototype grid.

Deleted · 23 Sep 2011, 21:49 (Ref:2960180)

LMS's GT2 grid has always been inferior to ALMS's... same story here. Don't really care how the other classes compare but LMPC is million times better than the European version, and this year's LMP2 is just a big clumsy mess no matter where it races.

Speed Euroseries will get some delayed stuf on TV by the way... support act actually receives better coverage than weekend's headliner!

FordCosworthPanoz · 23 Sep 2011, 22:08 (Ref:2960187)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chiana

LMS's GT2 grid has always been inferior to ALMS's... same story here. Don't really care how the other classes compare but LMPC is million times better than the European version, and this year's LMP2 is just a big clumsy mess no matter where it races.

Speed Euroseries will get some delayed stuf on TV by the way... support act actually receives better coverage than weekend's headliner!

No, l like FLM in Europe better than LMPC because they dont bother showing it when the series is on television and unlike the main ALMS commentator in the LMS they dont treat it like its Group C or Super Touring from the 90s. Basically the same rubbish club spec racing, but I appreciate it sucks so much in the LMS that they dont show it at all, ALMS should take note.

To be honest, if not for GTE/GT, Im not sure Id even bother watching regular LMS and especially regular ALMS rounds. Although the petrol LMP1 battles are really good whenever the ILMC combines with the LMS or ALMS. Not interested in the ALMS Lola Customer Car Cup either.

arakis · 23 Sep 2011, 22:14 (Ref:2960189)

the only reason ALMS is more interesting to a casual viewer is because a safty car comes out if a blade of grass falls on the track, its redicilus, and obvis that artifical racing is the neame of the game, personaly, I love LMS and ALMS although I prefer LMS simply because its more realistic...to me that is

Deleted · 23 Sep 2011, 22:20 (Ref:2960192)

Quote:

Originally Posted by FordCosworthPanoz

No, l like FLM in Europe better than LMPC because they dont bother showing it when the series is on television and unlike the main ALMS commentator in the LMS they dont treat it like its Group C or Super Touring from the 90s. Basically the same rubbish club spec racing, but I appreciate it sucks so much in the LMS that they dont show it at all, ALMS should take note.

Then again, they rarely show anything but prototypes in LMS/ILMC. You get the ocassional shots of Ferraris and Porkies, with the onscreen graphics saying "battle for 34th place" or something similary stupid... then they cut to Peugeot onboard.

I don't like LMPC but it gets more coverage on ALMS because it's an actual class with some competition, not boring survival of the fittest a la FLM. Hindy can say whatever he likes and treat classes like wet carpet when he's covering LMS for RLM (for example see their Saleen jokes), but during the ALMS stream broadcasts the freedom of speech is limited... he is the main commentator of the entire series so spec classes need to be artificially hyped up.

Deleted · 23 Sep 2011, 22:25 (Ref:2960194)

And just because LMS doesn't publicly put their up-to-date BoP changes online like ALMS doesn't meet that they don't exist, in LMP2 alone there's been twenty billion adjustments this year...

There are plenty of SC interruptions in alms but that is the case with most of the American series. At least they don't deploy multiple SCs like LMS does, always screws ups someone's race.

FordCosworthPanoz · 23 Sep 2011, 22:26 (Ref:2960195)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chiana

Then again, they rarely show anything but prototypes in LMS/ILMC. You get the ocassional shots of Ferraris and Porkies, with the onscreen graphics saying "battle for 34th place" or something similary stupid... then they cut to Peugeot onboard.

I don't like LMPC but it gets more coverage on ALMS because it's an actual class with some competition, not boring survival of the fittest a la FLM. Hindy can say whatever he likes and treat classes like wet carpet when he's covering LMS for RLM (for example see their Saleen jokes), but during the ALMS stream broadcasts the freedom of speech is limited... he is the main commentator of the entire series so spec classes need to be artificially hyped up.

Just a random question, if GTE/GT did not exsist and it was just LMP1, LMP2, LMPC and/or GTC, would you bother spending time following the LMS or ALMS? I find myself asking this same question all the time.

Deleted · 23 Sep 2011, 22:30 (Ref:2960200)

Quote:

Originally Posted by FordCosworthPanoz

Just a random question, if GTE/GT did not exsist and it was just LMP1, LMP2, LMPC and/or GTC, would you bother spending time following the LMS or ALMS? I find myself asking this same question all the time.

I'm foremost a GT fan (GT2 and old GT1/GTS) and enjoy prototypes as a side show. But I don't know how to answer that.

isynge · 23 Sep 2011, 22:30 (Ref:2960201)

At risk of flying in the face of the "sky is falling" sentiment on the forum at the moment, I'm quite looking forward to Estoril, and while I'd much prefer there to be TV coverage (and news that there are cameras there, just not filming the LMS just makes the situation fatuous) having T&S and RLM on during Sunday is no hardship - I've watched and enjoyed races that way in the past, and see no reason why this shouldn't be different.

Quite intrigued by some of the back end LMP2 practice times - interesting to see the Norma not a million miles off the back of the Pecom Lola - as people across the board know, I like it as a car, and if this gives Extreme Limite a boost and encouragement to come back next year so much the better.

AndrewF31 · 23 Sep 2011, 23:07 (Ref:2960217)

There's a cameraman running around the Pit Lane. Where that will show up is anyone's guest.
Crowds weren't very big on Friday. Hoping the weekend will bring in a lot more people.

Didn't know Tilke was behind the changes to Estoril, but the first corners change and the slow sequence put in near the end of the lap were really down to the safety precautions FIA was into at the end of the 90s. Those corners were great but they were really fast.

Circuit is still enjoyable. It needs, however, a complete haulover in terms of facilities. It's basically the same buildings since F1 last went there, and that ain't good.

Purist · 23 Sep 2011, 23:20 (Ref:2960220)

I don't find it to really stand out anymore. And they found ways to add run-off at the first couple turns, so they could have kept them the same and just added run-off. The chicane over the hill was added as a knee-jerk reaction following Senna's crash. I suppose they would have had to take out some trees to keep the old final turn. They did keep it as a fast one, just moved in to add run-off on top of the original turn.

The track used to excite me, with those opening two corners, those nice, wide 180s after that, and the flyer over the hill leading into that fast final curve. Now, I can't really get excited about the place. It was a track I would put alongside Algarve, Brno, or Mugello, but now, I find it not much better than the Hungaroring.

And F1 facilities of the 1990s are fine. Laguna Seca is about the only major road course here with garages and such at that level.

AGD · 24 Sep 2011, 01:20 (Ref:2960245)

Quote:

Originally Posted by JAG

The entr list is only part of the equation, when you follow an ALMS race it feels like you're watching an international sportscar event, the LMS feels closer to the Dutch Supercar Challenge or British GT's annual visit to Spa.

Yeah, but I think you have to give credit to the ALMS for that one. ALMS management gets grilled here and elsewhere and they have made mistakes for sure, but they have been able to keep some momentum going if nothing else. As for the LMS, they're probably always going to have "little brother" syndrome in Europe especially when the WEC is in existence. LMS races aren't going to be "must watch" events on the global motorsports calendar, but they put on good races and that is good enough for me.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chiana

LMS's GT2 grid has always been inferior to ALMS's... same story here. Don't really care how the other classes compare but LMPC is million times better than the European version, and this year's LMP2 is just a big clumsy mess no matter where it races.

Ok, I would expect a Corvette fan to favor the ALMS over the LMS for obvious reasons. And, yes, there is more variety amongst the top ALMS GT runners than in LMS GT. Still, there's some really top notch efforts in the LMS with some fierce competition. I think some of the LMS teams could teach their ALMS counterparts a trick or two.

Quote:

Originally Posted by arakis

LMS simply because its more realistic...to me that is

I would have to agree with that sentiment. Plus, you don't get the weekly weight and restrictor roulette wheel in LMS GT.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chiana

And just because LMS doesn't publicly put their up-to-date BoP changes online like ALMS doesn't meet that they don't exist, in LMP2 alone there's been twenty billion adjustments this year...

This is a legitimate question because I don't know, but what changes have been made to LMP2? I know some changes were made before Le Mans, but what since then?

I actually think the quality of LMP2 is better than you are giving it credit for. It was rough at the start of the year, but the cars are running better now than they were expected to do. It's pro-am racing so don't expect miracles, but it's not too bad. It's certainly better than LMPC.

Quote:

Originally Posted by isynge

Quite intrigued by some of the back end LMP2 practice times - interesting to see the Norma not a million miles off the back of the Pecom Lola - as people across the board know, I like it as a car, and if this gives Extreme Limite a boost and encouragement to come back next year so much the better.

The Norma has quietly done a pretty good job this year. Ok, it is usually around the back, but it's not too far off the top LMP2 teams. It seems like Judd is making some strides, although maybe that is because of the performance balancing that Chiana was talking about earlier. I believe Judd got some breaks before Le Mans, but that was a while ago. Anyway, Extreme Limite Paris has done a pretty good job for what has been a very amateur type effort. It's a beautiful car too. It also might be the only "true" cost-capped car out there, but that is hard to say. The cost-capping rules are kind of a joke, but it seems that everyone is getting on-board the scam train so I guess it mostly evens out.

The Badger · 24 Sep 2011, 10:02 (Ref:2960328)

Quote:

Originally Posted by FordCosworthPanoz

Just a random question, if GTE/GT did not exsist and it was just LMP1, LMP2, LMPC and/or GTC, would you bother spending time following the LMS or ALMS? I find myself asking this same question all the time.

Im more interested in proto ..... but the battles are better in Gt .

Just take a look at Group C when it was running ..... 2 class's C and C2 ..... and this was one of the most popular championships ever .

The Badger · 24 Sep 2011, 11:56 (Ref:2960348)

WOW ..... IMSA just planted their AM 997 on overall GT pole !!!

Deleted · 24 Sep 2011, 12:31 (Ref:2960354)

No they didn't, you looked at the wrong session times...

Interesting how Pescarolo seems to straight be on the pace of Rebellions on these regular LMS rounds, but not when ILMC is present... still I'd expect pole for #12

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