F1 becoming like stock cars?

[johntt]

Just hear me out on this one...

Do you think that F1 ia abandoning the mix of technology/entertainment/marketing and just going straight for entertainment/marketing a la Nascar?

Just consider this
1) Engine development frozen for 10 years.
2) New aero package from 2009 designed to increase overtaking
3) Customer cars (maybe)

[Fish_Flake]

Originally Posted by johntt

Just hear me out on this one...

Do you think that F1 ia abandoning the mix of technology/entertainment/marketing and just going straight for entertainment/marketing a la Nascar?

Just consider this
1) Engine development frozen for 10 years.
2) New aero package from 2009 designed to increase overtaking
3) Customer cars (maybe)

1. I believe that this is little more than a hollow threat between Max Mosley and the manufacturers. There's no way that Formula 1 goes a decade without engine development.
2. The dependence on aerodynamic grip in Formula 1 has reached ridiculous proportions, a fact that can be seen just by looking at the cars. New aero regulations mean that teams have to think outside the box to generate downforce.
3. Customer cars had been a part of Grand Prix racing from its beginning until the 1980s, when the FISA-FOCA war sparked teams to look out for themselves. This is nothing more than the old becoming new again.

[Marbot]

Flav,Bernie and Max think that it should be more of a show.

(last paragraphs,but read it all )

http://www.itv-f1.com/News_Article.aspx?PO_ID=41244

[J-C]

Customer cars had their place in the sport where even the biggest team had no more than 50 employees. Now even the smallest teams employ 250+ people. Is it therefore fair to put hundreds of people's livelihoods at risk by allowing Dave Richards and co to open their chequebook and roll up in Melbourne with brand new competitive cars without having to spent a penny on design and development? Of course it isn't, the sport has evolved massively since the late 70's so the argument that "customer cars are nothing new" is totally invalid.

[M Coupe]

Originally Posted by J-C

Customer cars had their place in the sport where even the biggest team had no more than 50 employees. Now even the smallest teams employ 250+ people. Is it therefore fair to put hundreds of people's livelihoods at risk by allowing Dave Richards and co to open their chequebook and roll up in Melbourne with brand new competitive cars without having to spent a penny on design and development? Of course it isn't, the sport has evolved massively since the late 70's so the argument that "customer cars are nothing new" is totally invalid.

So which jobs exactly will be put at risk?

By allowing Prodrive to enter with a customer car they are allowing another team to enter, thereby creating new jobs.

[duke_toaster]

Customer cars would be great for F1 provided the team limit increases. Customer cars were even used pre war FFS, most of the field was made up of customer Alfas, Bugattis and Maseratis.

[J-C]

Originally Posted by M Coupe

So which jobs exactly will be put at risk?

By allowing Prodrive to enter with a customer car they are allowing another team to enter, thereby creating new jobs.

Over 500 people work at Williams, over 250 people work at Spyker/Force India. If teams like Prodrive are allowed to run customer McLarens with a skeletal staff of 100-odd people, then this makes teams like Williams and Force India vulnerable because what's the point in them working their arses off designing their own cars if teams like Prodrive can buy the best car off-the-shelf?

Customer cars fully legalised would be a complete disaster. F1 is highly competitive as it is without customer cars - the entire grid is covered by around 2s per lap. Allowing customer cars will just kill off the last of the true independant teams.

[Another Bob]

Customer car teams will they have to buy their cars from somebody.

The likes of Williams etc will then employ more people and be paid for the supply of cars from the likes of Prodrive.

How is this going to place peoples jobs in peril?

As far as independants are concerned, this should only help them as if they supply to other teams it will mean they can then bankroll more research as they have a larger cash flow.

[J-C]

How many customer car teams are going to buy cars from Williams or Force India though? That's the point I'm making - customer teams are going to buy from McLaren and Ferrari, therefore buying cars which when setup properly should be instantly competitive and forcing the independent teams like Williams and Force India down the grid, therefore reducing their sponsorship and other commercial revenue. The drop in revenue will make their current operations unsustainable. F1 will end up consisting of the 6 manufacturer teams then a bunch of glorified GP2 teams.

[Mekola]

Originally Posted by Fish_Flake

1. I believe that this is little more than a hollow threat between Max Mosley and the manufacturers. There's no way that Formula 1 goes a decade without engine development.

Could be similar like in old days. Cosworth DFV was competitive during 1967-83, winning races all that time. Engine development was that frozen at that time in form that such an engine concept could be a winning package most than 15 years???

[Mekola]

Originally Posted by J-C

How many customer car teams are going to buy cars from Williams or Force India though? That's the point I'm making - customer teams are going to buy from McLaren and Ferrari, therefore buying cars which when setup properly should be instantly competitive and forcing the independent teams like Williams and Force India down the grid, therefore reducing their sponsorship and other commercial revenue. The drop in revenue will make their current operations unsustainable. F1 will end up consisting of the 6 manufacturer teams then a bunch of glorified GP2 teams.

And that's not that bad in modern motorsport world. MotoGP acts this way, with official and customer teams, and it was the mood during Fangio and Clark eras in F1 world (Siffert winning a race with a "customer" Lotus is a clear example!).
WCC was already planned to that form of official and customer cars during its creaton, then the points for customers should go for the manufacturer. Simply as that.

[Another Bob]

Admitedly you don't want 24 of the same car running around a circuit just because its seen to be the best.

Maybe you limit the number of other teams that constructors can sell chassis or tubs to, and if you are a engine as well as a chassis constructor then maybe you can't sell your engines as well as chassis to the same teams.

This way you will get mix and matching.

[Fish_Flake]

Originally Posted by Mekola

Could be similar like in old days. Cosworth DFV was competitive during 1967-83, winning races all that time. Engine development was that frozen at that time in form that such an engine concept could be a winning package most than 15 years???

Except that there was no such thing as an engine freeze during the 1970s. The Cosworth DFV was simply more powerful, more reliable, and more economical than the competition during that span of time. It took the continental manufacturers a decade to match the Cosworth's pace with consistency, but then the aerodynamic revolution meant that the DFV's compact design more than made up for any deficit of horsepower it might have had over the Italian flat engines or the Matra V12. It took another half-decade for turbocharged engines to reach the DFV's reliability, and only then did the engine become obsolete. Plus, don't think that Cosworth was sitting back during the whole period: Ford put up a lot of money to ensure that the engine with their badge on it would remain the class of the grid.

[BootsOntheSide]

It's all very well to protect the current F1 team owners such as Frank Williams and whoever owns ex-Jordan this week. However, as it stands it's extremely hard for a new manager to come through, even after success in GP2. Someone like Frank could never have got into F1 today - even in the 70s he had to struggle for years, even having his home phones cut off at one point (forcing him to conduct team business from a telephone box). And look at him now - a great entrepreneurial hero, and probably an inspiration to others. Given the chance, teams like ART and Super Nova could do the same. Losing a few hundred jobs from the sport would be a small price to pay for a more open feel and extra competitive teams.

[J-C]

Try telling that to the hundreds of people in F1 design offices that "losing jobs would be a small price to pay"! These are real people with real livelihoods, you can't be that dismissive.

1) Just because F1 historically has had customer cars is totally missing the point. For pretty much the last three decades each team has built their own car, and this has become a fundamental issue that differentites F1 from every other catagory. As I said, the sport has evolved massively in the last 30 years, teams are much bigger, have far bigger facilities and employ hundreds more people. You can't compare it to MotoGP which has always had the situation of the big factory teams then selling equipment to semi-works outfits - it's apples and oranges.

2) Would F1 really be more competitive with customer McLarens and Ferraris? I doubt it - F1 is more competitive than it ever has been in terms of the delta between the fastest and the slowest cars. Having customer teams would just give rise to DTM type "team racing" where customer cars are used as sacrificial lambs in order to hinder the progress of the opposition's works cars.

3) Point taken about it being extremely hard for a new team to emerge. I would say it would be OK for a team to run a year-old car from another team for their first 2 or 3 seasons whilst they build up the neccessary infrastructure to build their own car (i.e. the Super Aguri approach). During this time they would not be eligable for constructors points. I don't have a problem with that, I'm against the wholescale implementation of customer cars where a team can run same-spec equipment as a works team.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by J-C

3) Point taken about it being extremely hard for a new team to emerge. I would say it would be OK for a team to run a year-old car from another team for their first 2 or 3 seasons whilst they build up the neccessary infrastructure to build their own car (i.e. the Super Aguri approach). During this time they would not be eligable for constructors points. I don't have a problem with that, I'm against the wholescale implementation of customer cars where a team can run same-spec equipment as a works team.

What advantage would a team have by entering with a customer car for 2-3 years. If they aren't eligible for the rewards, and they have to build their infrastructure, why not spend the money just on infrastructure and not buy a customer car?

[johnh875]

I don't have a problem with customer cars. I disagree with comments that the smaller teams will be automatically at the back of the grid, fundamentally the cust cars are last year's models and the rate of change in F1 means the smaller teams should be competitive and the better small teams not far behind the lead teams as they are now.

[Pingguest]

Originally Posted by Fish_Flake

1. I believe that this is little more than a hollow threat between Max Mosley and the manufacturers. There's no way that Formula 1 goes a decade without engine development.

Not so fast on that one. Five years ago nobody could imagine a Formula 1 with 2,4 liter V8's, an enforced reliability of two full races events and major engine development outlawed for at least three seasons. Five years ago nobody could imagine a Formula 1 with spec components or anti-motorsport post-qualifying parc fermé-regulations.

[johntt]

The way i see it is that F1 is not going to be road relevant in the way that touring cars and sportscars are.

Touring cars (like super 2000) are very close to the road car and thus can (and should) be used to develop technology thats road relevant, sportscars ike the R8/R10 and 908 are effectively rolling labs for engine technology and the length of the races they run enable them to gain a decent amount of data.

F1 has neither of thse things, which is why switching to a more envrionmentally friendly fuel and extending engine life to 4 races is what it needs. That said, engine development in terms of allowing variable valve tech, different compression ratios etc. shoudl be permitted.

Personally i think customer cars should be permitted, be them coming from Williams/McLaren et al or Dallara/Lola/Panoz. A seperate customers championship should exist and the limit on number of teams should increase to 15. The amount of personnel and sheer cost involved should eliminate any timewasters (Andrea Moda anyone?) that may have previously existed.