Speed News: New Effort to Unify the Indy Racing League and Champ Car (Merged again)

[rustyfan]

Originally Posted by GP Racer

NASCAR knows that, thats why they have Karts, ARCA, Hooters, Truck, and a host of Bush series, and most all of there drivers are better known than the top open wheelers! Sad!

Actually, ARCA, which started in 1950, is an independent sanctioning body. True, they work closely with NASCAR in many areas, use extremely similar rules and so on (which they benefit from since most major Cup teams often use the ARCA Series as a training ground for young talents), but they aren't owned by NASCAR.

And I think, with a few exceptions like ARCA veteran Frank Kimmel perhaps, that most Champ Car and IndyCar drivers are more well-known than most ARCA regulars

The Busch Series - and the Truck Series too for that matter, with the number of ex-Cup drivers they have there these days - probably get more attention, and pull bigger crowds on average, than open-wheel though.

[rustyfan]

Originally Posted by Snrub

There are lots of good CC tracks and the worst one (Vancouver) is no longer on the schedule. Fundidora park may not be the best layout, but it actually produced a very good race behind the front - granted, we didn't get to see it very well! Despite not being the best layout, LB did produce a good race this year.

The IndyCar race at St. Pete's was better, IMHO... Well, the last third, anyhow, during which it really picked up. The race at Long Beach never got going. Sure, there were the odd nice pass, but overall it was a boring race. Of course they didn't have much to work with, given the layout at hand...

Originally Posted by Snrub

?!? Worst race of the season and worst CC race I've ever seen. (okay Surfer's 02 was probably worse)

Granted I saw a 35 highlights recap, but those last ten laps were shown in full and they were bloody marvellous, with two top drivers duking it out like the crucial moments of a tense chess game for the win. Wonderful stuff.

Then again, I like my racing close, especially towards the end (illustrated by the fact that I consider the FIA GT race at Monza and the NASCAR Cup race at Atlanta being the best two races, all categories, so far this year). I guess you don't.

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by JohnSSC

5) Make the ladder series events mean something. As I've suggested before the winner of the Atlantics/IPS championship gets a ride in the big show with a solid team.

Actually I think that's been a problem for 20 years. Indycars morphed so much into european type formula cars that you really needed drivers who had that experience from europe to get the best out of them. Now at times I think we had a good ladder system, but any of the series were probably never as good as the european ones.

Also, regardless of how good the upper tier of the ladder system is, if you don't have anything feeding from below, it's just about useless. Compared to europe we really don't have much going on below star mazda. As an American you might as well buy a sportman stock car and race every weekend and maybe at least have a chance to get a local sponsor or a tiny bit of prize money to recoup your investment.

[JohnSSC]

Spot-on, moutainstar.

There seems to be an overall lack of coordination for want of a better term. Certainly as far as open wheel goes there is nowhere near the activity you would find in Europe. You just can't make the jump from Formula Vee to Atlantics - you know what I mean? Look at things like the various national F3 series' that are going on - fairly high level stuff that provides good experience.

Currently, there is no reward for success at the top tier of the feeder system and there is a real disconnect between the Club Racing ranks and the lower rungs of the feeder system here.

[Team Owner]

A story on Speed by Robin Miller, a commentary on Wind Tunnel,threads on most popular forums all about re-unification.

Must be getting close to the month of May.

[Tim Northcutt]

Exactly what Brian Barnhart said in this morning's Indy Star....


These talks covered very little new ground....

The big differences are not over equipment but philosphy, direction and leadership...common chassis won't solve that....

This cropped up "again" at this time of year to distract attention from the 500, and thus force the questions and stories into unification, which gives OWRS some of the ink, instead of the racing at the Brickyard...

I don't think either side is going to work out a way to unify...

It would be nice if they could, but the differences are too great...

[GP Racer]

The differing philosophies seem's to be the biggest hurdle to reunification.

TG definetly doesn't want to take a new series international. He wants to keep it basically here at home, while KK, an Aussie it must be noted, is looking to go to the Pacific Rim in a big way. I have to wonder about his committment to a new unified series here in the US. KK thinks they can compete with F1, while TG believes that IndyCar racing is whats important, and could care less about competing with F1. I'm also sure that TG doesn't want to see a schedule that is heavier in road/street races than ovals either.

These are huge philisophical differences, and as an IRL fan, I'm glad Tony isn't giving away the store to these guys...

[trow]

Originally Posted by Team Owner

A story on Speed by Robin Miller, a commentary on Wind Tunnel,threads on most popular forums all about re-unification.

Must be getting close to the month of May.

eggzactly!

[trow]

Originally Posted by Tim Northcutt

It would be nice if they could, but the differences are too great...

... and the wounds from January 2004 are too deep!

[Snrub]

Originally Posted by Team Owner

A story on Speed by Robin Miller, a commentary on Wind Tunnel,threads on most popular forums all about re-unification.

IMO we really need your 2C on this issue. eg. Is any of the speculation/rumours even close to correct? Is it even conceivable to implement Mario's ideas?

Originally Posted by rustyfan

The IndyCar race at St. Pete's was better, IMHO... Well, the last third, anyhow, during which it really picked up. The race at Long Beach never got going. Sure, there were the odd nice pass, but overall it was a boring race. Of course they didn't have much to work with, given the layout at hand...

You're nuts! Odd nice pass? There were a number of passes. How many legit passes for position ocuured @ St. Petes, minus ones created with slow cars at the front due to pit/fuel stratagies? I don't consider those as completely different from PT and Bourdais going by Vasser, which I don't consider as real passes.

[rustyfan]

Originally Posted by Snrub

You're nuts! Odd nice pass? There were a number of passes. How many legit passes for position ocuured @ St. Petes, minus ones created with slow cars at the front due to pit/fuel stratagies? I don't consider those as completely different from PT and Bourdais going by Vasser, which I don't consider as real passes.

The end of the race at Long Beach was like the end of the Cup race at Texas. Predictable.

When Bourdais had the lead handed back to him after Vasser pitted, you knew it was over, just as you knew there was no chance Mears would be able to keep Biffle behind him after the final restart at Texas.

The end of the race at St. Pete's, while it wasn't exactly pretty, offered drama and an outcome you couldn't predict - you knew Kanaan was faster, but Briscoe was by no means slow, and he could go the rest of the way. Was Kaanan going to be able to pass him cleanly? Was Briscoe going to be able to pull away? Would something happen that would take them both out? You couldn't tell for sure, much like you couldn't be certain whether the Ferrari would be able to find a way past the Maserati during the closing laps of the FIA GT race at Monza or whether Carl Edwards, dirt-sliding his Ford at 200mph on tires that were worn to the thread, would be able to chase down Kevin Harvick in the closing laps at Atlanta (which he did in a incredibly thrilling way, by the way).

Of course I'm asking for a lot, wanting to get a good finish to every race, but watching as much motorsport as I do I have come to prefer nothing less but hard, close (as well as unpredictable) racing.

If that makes me nuts, then so be it.

[mac]

Originally Posted by rustyfan

The end of the race at Long Beach was like the end of the Cup race at Texas. Predictable.

When Bourdais had the lead handed back to him after Vasser pitted, you knew it was over, just as you knew there was no chance Mears would be able to keep Biffle behind him after the final restart at Texas.

The end of the race at St. Pete's, while it wasn't exactly pretty, offered drama and an outcome you couldn't predict - you knew Kanaan was faster, but Briscoe was by no means slow, and he could go the rest of the way. Was Kaanan going to be able to pass him cleanly? Was Briscoe going to be able to pull away? Would something happen that would take them both out?

What you want is a yellow flag ten laps before the finish of every race to bunch the field back up.

Yeah, the finish at St Pete was exciting ..... but it was made that way because of a yellow flag. If not for the yellow, Briscoe would most probably have his first win on the board.

You could argue that the "finish" at St Pete was also predictable. Once AGR were 1-2-3-4, it was pretty obvious that they were going to stay that way. And there were 8 laps of that.

I thought they were both quite exciting races ..... must we have one better than the other?

[rush1]

In order to negotiate one must have something to negotiate with. The IRL would benefit from two things champ car possess, Long Beach and the Newman Haas racing outfit. Long Beach may go to the IRL in 2006 and the aformentioned team will be at Indy, full throttle in less than a month. I'm not sure that many other champ car teams have the budget to compete in the IRL anyway.

So what can the three amigos offer Tony George?

[Team Owner]

Originally Posted by Snrub

IMO we really need your 2C on this issue. eg. Is any of the speculation/rumours even close to correct? Is it even conceivable to implement Mario's ideas?

I don't think they are Snrub. The first thing you need to look at is the fact that KK owns Cosworth and the 2.65 turbo engines which would make it very difficult for someone like Tony George to agree to use and KK probably wouldn't want to just throw them away and agree to use whatever engine that the IRL comes up with for the next several years.
Marios ideas, while great reading in the press, would be very hard to implement withput a lot of compromise on both sides. When you are dealing with the kind of meglomaniacs that are the principles on both sides I doubt they could ever agree on where to have dinner much less how to put 2 completely different open wheel series back together.

[GP Racer]

I have to believe at this point that TG has an engine program ready to go for 07, or he would have been much more accomodating to the CC offer, or Marios offer, to have a compatible engine and car for both series. The fact that he didn't even consider it, tells me that engines will not be a problem for the IRL, whether or not Honda/Toyota stay's or goes.

I also think that if the IRL gets LB, CC is pretty much done here. They won't have any strong races left in the States. So really, why should TG give away the store before he knows which way LB is going to go?

I agree rush, the 2 amigos (PG no longer even counts!) have little to negotiate with...

[StickShift]

If, somehow, the two series do have a compatible engine and chassis package for 2007. Would the IRL still enforce their 'one series only' demand for the chassis manufacturers? I'm sure the IRL and Champ Car would love to have their hands on the next generation Lola, Panoz, and Dallara chassis'.

Not to mention, the manufacturers would love to have twice the business.

[Jordi]

Originally Posted by GP Racer

The differing philosophies seem's to be the biggest hurdle to reunification.

TG definetly doesn't want to take a new series international. He wants to keep it basically here at home, while KK, an Aussie it must be noted, is looking to go to the Pacific Rim in a big way. I have to wonder about his committment to a new unified series here in the US. KK thinks they can compete with F1, while TG believes that IndyCar racing is whats important, and could care less about competing with F1. I'm also sure that TG doesn't want to see a schedule that is heavier in road/street races than ovals either.

These are huge philisophical differences, and as an IRL fan, I'm glad Tony isn't giving away the store to these guys...

KK thinks that he can compete with F1, but will the IRL be able to compete with NASCAR (and Busch and Trucks) in the near future?
I posted this in the Champ Car board - my idea would be for the two series to reunite and race exactly where F1 or NASCAR don't race (allowing exceptions for the big ovals such as Indy, Michigan or Fontana - 500 milers are very much part of open-wheel racing, and also for the Australia race or one or two European ovals. Attendance had been reasonable there).

My point is: It is very hard to fight these two mammoths on their own races. A NASCAR race is almost always more packed than any open-wheel race bar the Indy 500, and even though F1 is not what it was, it is still F1, so why don't we race on the road courses in the States and some ovals/unused F1 tracks outside of it (5 races maximum)?

It makes sense to me, but since I'm a poor boy and don't have the money to buy the stuff from either KK/GF/PG or TG, things will stay the same and these words will be blown away by a Ford Taurus breezing at 180 mph, I'm afraid.

[JohnSSC]

But really, it does not matter where they race so much as it matters that the race is shown on TV - and not just some hole-in-the-wall Cable Channel, either.

NASCAR grew exponentially as TV turned fans on to their product. They watched races on TV and then started going to races. The more of them that went, the greater the demand by new venues to be included. The more that went begat more that watched making the TV time more valuable which then generated revenue that could be used to "grow" the series.

OWRS has pretty much gutted their former venue base. IRL had to sart from scratch. Neither has numbers that would indicate that there are more open wheel than water polo fans out there.

Without some out of the box thinking or some sort of huge Sponsoring Partner, neither Series will be able to grow.

Meanwhile, folks here can peck at the Amigos or TG for this or that mistake all that they want and to paraphrase Shakespeare and Faulkner, it is all just:

"The sound and the fury, signifying nothing."

[GP Racer]

Originally Posted by JohnSSC

Without some out of the box thinking or some sort of huge Sponsoring Partner, neither Series will be able to grow.

That was one of the points I made in an earlier post.

We need both really. We need new creative thinkers, not guys who say, "if we could just get reunited, and have an 18 race schedule, with an equal mix of ovals/road/street courses, it would be like 1990 all over again, whoopeee!" Thats just not going to happen. Alot has changed in 15 years, and sometimes you just can't go back.

Open wheel also needs to have a company that is willing to dump 10's of millions of dollars into this series, like NEXTEL is doing for NASCAR. Since NEXTEL took over from Winston, there has been a dramatic increase in the visibility of that series, as if there wasn't enough before! They are now everywhere! They are so mainstream, with there ever so well coached and managed drivers that act more like TV actors than race car drivers, and there sponsors who are hawking there goods with NASCAR junk stuck all over there products! They have also bought Speed Channel lock, stock, and barrel. They now have anywhere from 12-18 hrs. a day of nothing but NASCAR, thanks to NEXTEL.

Without that big series sponsor bringing serious cash, neither series can truly gain a foothold with the public again. But the problem is, where do we find a sponsor willing to commit to the mess we have today?

[jhansen]

Be careful what you wish for...

NASCAR is all about the show at any cost. It is not just about great stock car racing. It's much more than that...marketing products, franchising, branding, reality tv shows, appealing to the masses, etc. etc. If you are prepared for that in open wheel racing then I would say follow the NASCAR formula and whatever "out of the box" type thinking you would like to see.

However, if you want successful open wheel racing like we had before the split then I see no reason why an 18 race schedule with an even mix of road courses and ovals would not work. The primary detriment prior to the split was management and business practices. The quality of the product was never the real issue.

[GP Racer]

Originally Posted by jhansen

Be careful what you wish for...

However, if you want successful open wheel racing like we had before the split then I see no reason why an 18 race schedule with an even mix of road courses and ovals would not work. The primary detriment prior to the split was management and business practices. The quality of the product was never the real issue.

It won't work, simply because NASCAR has raised the bar.

People today expect more from there racing dollars and entertainment time. There are lots of ways to find entertainment today, so if your going to get looked at, you better damn well be giving people something extra, and NASCAR has done that. They have revolutionized the sport of racing, and how people view racing. Fans feel as though there part of something big, and they are. They are the first series to make racing mainstream, where yuppies, bikers, rednecks, lawyers, truckdrivers and stockbrockers all love to watch NASCAR these days. They have been able to do what no other racing series has ever been able to, mass market. Mention racing, and people say NASCAR! NASCAR is racing!

Jhansen, your a sports car guy, but how many people do you know that you can actually discuss that with? I'd venture none, besides close friends. But you can always talk about NASCAR. Its in Americas psyche, like football.

So IMO, there is no way to go back to 1990, reunification or not. People want and expect more today, and if your sport doesn't have it, then maybe Arena Football, or the X-Games does. NASCAR has found a system that works. Take the best of it, and run with it...

[jhansen]

Well, I suppose my question to you is what is your definition of success?

I think the product prior to the split would work today given some sound business and management practices. No, it wouldn't dethrone NASCAR. The only thing that can take down NASCAR at this point is itself. There is nothing wrong with serving a niche and serving it well. My dad has done that with his business and turned out the best years of the company's life in it's most competitive time. It's not Staples (he has an office supply store), but he is very successful.

A unified series would restore respect for the championship and allow Indy to be the true spectacle that it is. Manufacturers and fans would be attracted to both.

From what you're saying I get the feeling that you want north american open wheel racing to be a household name and marketing giant. I'm not sure that is a very realistic goal.

GP Racer: I also find it interesting that you think the only way a sport can make it in today's climate is to become "sports entertainment" ala WWE. An interesting view.

[GP Racer]

Well, I guess what I want is something between what we have now, and what NASCAR has.

I certainly don't need a reality show, or 18 hrs of IndyCar programming so I can know what Helio ate for breakfast, or what Sharp does on his down time. What we do need though, is some of the risk taking mentality that brought NASCAR up from what was basically a regional series to a national phenomenom. We have to stop looking down our noses at what they did, and say, hey, why can't we do some of that?

Here's my list of things that open wheel need to do IMO, in order to regain some respect. I know I listed them previously, but I still stand by them -

Stability! NASCAR is the only series out there that is currently giving us that. We have been without that for so long, that OW has forgotten just how important that is! We are always in a constant state of commotion and upheaval. Unless your a hard-core fan, you'll give up!

Stars! being a celebrity driven society, we have to have drivers that are here for the long haul, and we need to make them into stars, like NASCAR does, where there drivers are taught and coached on how to interview and sell. They all give great interviews! Then look at say Hornish or Rice, dullsville!

Marketing! seems like a real no-brainer, but we never seem to do it right! Find our core brand, who we are trying to attract, make a 5 year plan, and stick to it!

Americans! Sorry to say this, but this series simply will not grow without there being more than 2 or 3 home grown drivers! Stop throwing drivers at us that we have never heard of, or never seen, or never watched.

Schedule! it has to be predictable, for instance a race every two weeks, always on Sunday, always at 1 PM, and on the same network! Spreading a small series over 3 or 4 networks is ludicrous. Fans need to know the W's, who, what, when, and where.

Sponsor! We need to find us a NEXTEL to sponsor our series. A real Goliath. Somebody with real cash and real clout to buy us a network like they have with Speed Channel. NEXTEL has now made NASCAR available almost 24/7 now. Amazing!

Attitudes! As OW fans, our attitudes suck! We have the audacity to look down our noses and make fun of NASCAR constantly, even while there killing us in every which way imaginable! Thats no way to attract more fans.

[Team Owner]

Good points GP Racer !

[Tim Northcutt]

I would agree, GP Racer...

I sat amongst a bunch of NASCAR fans at Kentucky Speedway last August....

They were asking me lots of questions, because they weren't familiar with the drivers...

But I will say this...they LOVED the racing action on the track...and many told me that they had no idea that it would be that fast, exciting and good...