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Old 11 May 2006, 22:06 (Ref:1606423)   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mountainstar
Actually he did return to F1 before the end of the CART season at the French GP where he retired early in the race.
I stand correected, but it still doesn't change the fact that he was a full-time Champ Car driver making an one-off F-1 race and then a few more after the Champ Car season had ended - not an active full-time F-1 driver making a one-off appearence at the Brickyard (which would have been impossible anyway since the 1994 Indianapolis 500 clashed with the Spanish Grand Prix at Barcelona).
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Old 11 May 2006, 22:08 (Ref:1606425)   #27
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Originally Posted by mountainstar
As far as I remembered the purse in 1991 was around the $7.5 mark and was only just about $8 mil last year. If it had increased to $10 mil, I was unaware of that.
It's the official numbers off the Indy 500 website. The total purse for the Indy 500 has been over $10 million since 2002.
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Old 12 May 2006, 11:37 (Ref:1606926)   #28
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Originally Posted by rustyfan
So you're letting one of the biggest IndyCar-haters on this forum speak for all Americans? That's cool, I guess.
I agree also...The Indy 500 is but a shadow of itself, and no longer worthy of the respect of a true open wheel fan.

I was passionate about Indy in its heyday...it was an annual pilgrimage my Dad and I made as a child..I fervently hope for a merger to restore the Month of May to its special status in the racing world.
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Old 12 May 2006, 13:22 (Ref:1607010)   #29
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BootsOntheSide should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridBootsOntheSide should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridBootsOntheSide should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridBootsOntheSide should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
To me it's still the biggest open-wheel race in the world outside of Formula One, and even then only a few F1 races have the same stature in their own right. The field is perfectly strong, with proven oval racers from several countries. A merger between ChampCar and IRL would improve the spectacle further, but most of the top oval racers in the US scene are in the oval-dominated IRL rather than the street-dominated ChampCar anyway.
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Old 12 May 2006, 13:33 (Ref:1607026)   #30
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Don't know what to say really, as I've never really come across anyone as hardcore as you - do you honestly mean the technology is that more important to you than close racing on the track? Wow. Just.. wow.

Yup thats me and if there were not anothr 20,000 odd people who agree with me then I wouldn't have a job (I'm deputy editor of Racecar Engineering magazine)


F1 dropped from 34 cars in 1991 to 20 in 1998 - was there a proportional loss of interest from the public? No.

Actually yes, if you look at the viewing figures (but exclude 1994/1995 which are anomalies) there were in steady decline (and until recently still were)

I'm not saying one series or another is better - my question is is Indy irrelevant? possibly no - but it seems a lot less relevant than it was! and is it still seen as a top event like Monaco and Le Mans - probably not - I think its now level pegging in the second division with the Daytona 500 (which gets more viewers world wide)
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Old 12 May 2006, 13:50 (Ref:1607044)   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BootsOntheSide
F1 dropped from 34 cars in 1991 to 20 in 1998 - was there a proportional loss of interest from the public? No. This year's field is one of the strongest of recent years, and at least nobody is hamstrung by uncompetitive Cosworth or Toyota equipment this year. Teams always did one-race deals using discarded equipment or equipment form bankrupt teams, that's nothing new. Mansell wasn't an active F1 driver when he did Indy 94 either - he returned afterwards

People who criticise the IRL for 'only' having 33 cars never notice the problems ChampCar has had in getting 18, or that NASCAR does not have full fields at the moment despite handing out huge prize funds for doing a couple of laps.

The stadium will have more people there than any F1 race all year, and huge TV figures the world over. TV figures have dropped in the last decade for everything, not just sport, because there is more competition from satellite and cable, as well as easier access to DVD rental.
I couldn't express my thought better than you just did Boots,
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Old 12 May 2006, 14:04 (Ref:1607052)   #32
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Right on, Boots......
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Old 12 May 2006, 14:23 (Ref:1607072)   #33
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Originally Posted by BootsOntheSide
People who criticise the IRL for 'only' having 33 cars never notice the problems ChampCar has had in getting 18, or that NASCAR does not have full fields at the moment despite handing out huge prize funds for doing a couple of laps.
The fact that the 500 is being compared favourably to the Champ Car series and random NASCAR races just shows how far it has fallen. There should be no comparison AT ALL.

It used to be an achievement to make the Indy 500. You had guys like LoQuasto trying for years and years and years before they finally did it. You had the likes of Ligouri never quite making it. You had the likes of Cortner who died trying to do so.

Bump day used to be a spectacular, heart-rending, joyous, disastrous spectacle. Big names squeezing in on the last day. George Snider doing his first laps of qualifying in his 4 lap run. Penske missing out entirely.

Look at the 50s. You often had a dozen cars in Championship races. Come Indy you had in the sixties. Everyone who raced was a champion of some sort. Now we have Marty Roth and Larry and Curly Foyt.

The 500 until 1995 was the single greatest race in the entire world. It is now just another race that happens to have big grandstands. The 500 has gone from number 1 in the world to number 3 in the State of Indiana. Terrific.
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Old 12 May 2006, 14:35 (Ref:1607086)   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ensign14
...It used to be an achievement to make the Indy 500. You had guys like LoQuasto trying for years and years and years before they finally did it. You had the likes of Ligouri never quite making it. You had the likes of Cortner who died trying to do so.
Having passionate-but-mediocre drivers trying to take part is colourful but not necessarily a sign of a grand competition IMO


Quote:
Originally Posted by ensign14
...Look at the 50s. You often had a dozen cars in Championship races. Come Indy you had in the sixties. Everyone who raced was a champion of some sort. Now we have Marty Roth and Larry and Curly Foyt.
Come on ensign14! Autoracing has always seen a mixture of great champions and backmarkers, particularly Indy in the past when almost everyone could make an attempt. And the same is true for any other formula, included F1: didn't you know in 1987 F1 lineup included Ayrton Senna, Alain Prost, Nelson Piquet, Nigle Mansell and Pascal Fabre?
Quote:
Originally Posted by ensign14
... The 500 has gone from number 1 in the world to number 3 in the State of Indiana. Terrific.
Which are the first two?

Last edited by climb; 12 May 2006 at 14:38.
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Old 12 May 2006, 15:26 (Ref:1607131)   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by climb
Having passionate-but-mediocre drivers trying to take part is colourful but not necessarily a sign of a grand competition IMO
They weren't mediocre. NASCAR was not a big magnet for many dirt-trackers. You have to imagine the likes of Stewart and Gordon and so on being in Champcars. The list of non-qualifiers at Indy is a storied one and includes Farina and Fangio...and those who DNQd in any individual year includes Fittipaldi, Unser Jr, Johnnie Parsons, George Amick and a good few others.

Quote:
Originally Posted by climb
Come on ensign14! Autoracing has always seen a mixture of great champions and backmarkers, particularly Indy in the past when almost everyone could make an attempt. And the same is true for any other formula, included F1: didn't you know in 1987 F1 lineup included Ayrton Senna, Alain Prost, Nelson Piquet, Nigle Mansell and Pascal Fabre?
Fabre won F3000 races and has always been unfairly tarred for his efforts in keeping a slow car on the road (if you were going to pick a true no-hoper I'd've mentioned Campos or Forini; I know Moreno fluked a point in the AGS but he was stone last and nearly DNQd at Japan). But Roth and the Foytlets are more a parallel with Jean-Pierre Frey or Fernando Croceri or Paolo Delle Piane or someone else almost painfully unsuited for a secondary level. At least in the past at Indy someone like Phil Caliva did not have a hope in hell of qualifying because there were 40 or so better drivers there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by climb
Which are the first two?
BY400 and GP. The States does not care much for the IRL champ but does the NASCAR champ. F1WC is known worldwide. Indy 500 alas is not. Not any more.
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Old 12 May 2006, 15:35 (Ref:1607145)   #36
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ensign - you see things as I do it seems - will 218mph get you on the grid? possibly. What cars could achieve a 218mph lap... - all IRL machines I think, champ cars, maybe some F1 things, what about a reworked GP2 or F3000?
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Old 12 May 2006, 16:58 (Ref:1607237)   #37
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I'd like to see worldwide viewing figures comparing the Daytona 500 to the Indy 500; it would surprise me if Daytona gets higher figures internationally.

For ensign's sake, I hope someone dies in 500 qualifying this year - that way it will be a REAL race again.....

I agree that the race isn't as big as it was in 1995, but the split is not the only cause. Its viewing figures were as high as those CART got from the US 500 on the same day, even though that had almost all the star drivers.
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Old 12 May 2006, 17:07 (Ref:1607245)   #38
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Well I think Daytona has higher viewing figures in the US for a start, Nextel cup races get quite good coverage in europe - IRL doesn't
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Old 12 May 2006, 17:25 (Ref:1607256)   #39
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luke should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridluke should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
NASCAR gets better coverge then the IRL in Europe? You serious Paul? Most people know what the IRL is and watch it the 500 and then there's the British interest but NASCAR why? Most people don't know what NASCAR is for a start on this continent...
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Old 12 May 2006, 17:32 (Ref:1607262)   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BootsOntheSide
For ensign's sake, I hope someone dies in 500 qualifying this year - that way it will be a REAL race again.....
Doe be saft; the point is that qualifying used to be difficult and people would put their lives on the line just to make the race. No need to do that now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BootsOnTheSide
I agree that the race isn't as big as it was in 1995, but the split is not the only cause. Its viewing figures were as high as those CART got from the US 500 on the same day, even though that had almost all the star drivers.
I think 3 years of Dr Jack Miller and Stan Wattles looking quite competitve probably put a lot of people off.
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Old 12 May 2006, 20:08 (Ref:1607355)   #41
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http://www.phillyburbs.com/pb-dyn/ne...06-655250.html
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Old 12 May 2006, 20:19 (Ref:1607368)   #42
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Why he's chosen now to write this, when the field is stronger than it has been for years, when no noted oval racers are in ChampCars anyway, and when bumping is almost certain, I don't know. I can only assume that he had a column to fill.

I don't really disagree with the fundamental point that it is now easier to qualify, but I think there was only the odd time in the early 90s when big-name regulars missed out - Penske in 95 and Rahal in 93 beind the main ones.
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Old 12 May 2006, 20:55 (Ref:1607391)   #43
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Tim Northcutt should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridTim Northcutt should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridTim Northcutt should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridTim Northcutt should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
FWIW, ensign....

One of the reasons why Tony George formed the IRL was because no one in CART would give Jeff Gordon a chance to show what he could do, and because it was a closed club of franchise owners who put $$$ before talent.

Jeff Gordon's goal was to race in the Indy 500

Tony Stewart has said on many oaccasions that without the IRL, he proabably wouldn't have gotten the opportunity to race in the "Big Leagues" before moving on to get better money in NASCAR, and feels that it was an important part of his career....

I agree that the split gave NASCAR the opportunity to surpass both open-wheel series here...and to recruit great open-wheel talent that should be racing at Indy instead...

Robin Miller blames the trend on USAC, which did not allow rear-engined sprint cars to race in the early 1980s...the trend toward foreign road racers and such eventually moved the USAC open-wheelers out of the mix...


I've also seen many Indy 500s since 1967....

Many great races....

I can tell you as well that the past two have been as exciting as any that I have seen...including 1992 and 1982, which were the two closest finishes ever at Indy...

and on May 28, there will still be a huge crowd in attendance who will be treated to a great race....there are at least 12-14 cars that could win it this year....

It'll be worth every penny of the $85 I've spent to sit in Turn 3 again this year.
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Old 12 May 2006, 21:02 (Ref:1607396)   #44
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12-14 cars that could win it this year? that's very easy to say when we don't have a front row yet. I'll pick my winner in the last 20 laps.
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Old 12 May 2006, 21:37 (Ref:1607419)   #45
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Tim Northcutt should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridTim Northcutt should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridTim Northcutt should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridTim Northcutt should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
Let me elaborate, Luke:

Penske - 2 cars
Ganassi - 2 cars
AGR - 5 cars (Marco has been in the Top 10 all week)
Rahal - 2 cars
Vision - Tomas Scheckter
Panther - Vitor Meira (don't ever count Panther out, especially now that they have Honda power)
Fernandez/Aguri - 1-2 cars

That's 14-15 right there...most are good teams or in Vision's case, they now have a good driver with larry Curry running the team...he is an Indy veteran.

The field is very deep this year...and tat doesn't even count an X factor like Lazier, who always has found a way to get to the front.
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Old 12 May 2006, 21:57 (Ref:1607426)   #46
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Speaking of races losing its luster, Le Mans should be right up there - where have the factory teams been to stop Audi from utterly dominating the race year in and year out, for example? It's almost ridiculous how easy Audi has been able to completely own Le Mans as of late.
That's not Audi's fault though. The regs are open to everyone at Le Mans and in the ALMS (the LMES/LMS came later) Audi just noticed a great gap in the market for promotion of its product and marketing, shame none of the other manufacturers didn't spot this, as it's a damn sight cheaper than a Formula One budget (are you listening Toyota and BMW...) and they've got more kudos (and undoubtedly more sales) from from the last 6 years than them too...

Porsche canned its LMP1 project, after building the car! All for the sake of the ****box that is the Cayenne, and pushed the rest of it motorsport interest into GT2, where it makes a huge profit from the customer market.

Any manfacturer could have come in to try and challenge Audi's dominance at Le Mans, just that the glory hungry went the way of F1 instead. Which is a shame. However, I reckon Le Mans is on for a MAJOR resurgence as the worlds greatest race over the next 3 years, more manufacturers are now interested and seem to have cottoned on to what Audi have achieved, especially from a marketing/sales point of view. (I don't reckon Toyota are going to stay much longer in F1, neither are Renault)

I'm sure Indy will become the great spectacle (its still a hard and great race) it once was, especially if the merger happens, as it will reignite the fans passion again too.
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Old 13 May 2006, 01:39 (Ref:1607492)   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim Northcutt
One of the reasons why Tony George formed the IRL was because no one in CART would give Jeff Gordon a chance to show what he could do, and because it was a closed club of franchise owners who put $$$ before talent.

Jeff Gordon's goal was to race in the Indy 500
If that's the case then tony should have threw down and got his homeboy Jeff a ride. In fact tony could have bought several franchises, teams, drivers, whatever he wanted and changed things from within.

Gordon may have wanted to race at Indy, but when Ford came along with a busch deal Jeff ran with it. Let's remember robby gordon was also being brought along by ford at the time and spun it into a ride with ganassi. No reason why Jeff couldn't have done the same. And even today, Jeff could race at Indy in a heartbeat if he really wanted.

Let's be honest Tim, the reason why the irl was formed was so tony could have the power. If american drivers were really the bone of contention, he could have easily done something about it at the time, but he didn't. And even today does tony put any effort into bringing up american drivers like little ole me? No, nothing. No scholarship program, no feeder series, no sponsorship, nothing to do except buy a ride in the pro series.
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Old 13 May 2006, 02:24 (Ref:1607500)   #48
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Originally Posted by ss_collins
Indy used to be a absolute institution, a challenge, attracting cars and drivers from all over the world (well england at least). Crazy specials fought to get on the grid and qualifying was a real spectacle.

But today I look at the top five speeds and they were all set by effectivley the same car, the 33 car grid was more than twice oversubscribed and now they struggle to fill it.

So is the Indy 500 now an irrelevance - in Europe its image is really tarnished now

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Old 13 May 2006, 05:01 (Ref:1607591)   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mountainstar
If that's the case then tony should have threw down and got his homeboy Jeff a ride. In fact tony could have bought several franchises, teams, drivers, whatever he wanted and changed things from within.

Gordon may have wanted to race at Indy, but when Ford came along with a busch deal Jeff ran with it. Let's remember robby gordon was also being brought along by ford at the time and spun it into a ride with ganassi. No reason why Jeff couldn't have done the same. And even today, Jeff could race at Indy in a heartbeat if he really wanted.

Let's be honest Tim, the reason why the irl was formed was so tony could have the power. If american drivers were really the bone of contention, he could have easily done something about it at the time, but he didn't. And even today does tony put any effort into bringing up american drivers like little ole me? No, nothing. No scholarship program, no feeder series, no sponsorship, nothing to do except buy a ride in the pro series.
Robby drove for AJ, then Derrick Walker, then went on his own....never drove for Ganassi as far as I can remember....state the year....

Don't feed me that line.....I live here.....I know that was being said and discussed here at that time....you can't buy something that isn't for sale...and CART felt they were driving the bus....they wouldn't have sold thier pieces of it for any money in the world..the same way TG won't sell the IMS...

Their arrogance was the driving force behind the "US 500" at Michigan...they even ridiculed the field at Indy and said they "might not make it through the frist lap"...

Who had the big one "Before" the green Flag" that year??? Not Indy!!!

Hendrick Motorsports saw talent and Ford did, too...but the Franchisees wanted others with cash...that's why jeff Gordon went to NASCAB

You never show up here until it is time to stir the crock....

I watch both series...I want one series...and both will continue to lose until there is ONE series...

But it won't happen unless TG is part of it....so I guess both will lose out and continue down the paths they have taken....

It is a shame....
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Old 13 May 2006, 08:01 (Ref:1607688)   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim Northcutt
One of the reasons why Tony George formed the IRL was because no one in CART would give Jeff Gordon a chance to show what he could do, and because it was a closed club of franchise owners who put $$$ before talent.
That worked, didn't it? Jac Haudenschild and loads of others from the sprint-type circuits never got a chance at Indy. Unlike Fermin Velez, Racin Gardner, Dr Jack, Paul Durant, Hideshi Matsuda, Jeret Schroeder, Wim Eyckmans and Stephan Gregoire did.

And now what do you have at Indy? How many of the US open-wheelers are there now? Even Tony George himself won't employ one, unless they're related to him.
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