Indy 500 - an irrelevance?

[luke]

I rarely agree with you ensign but I certainly do there. When TG formed it, it wasn't intended on harming CART at all according to him, that's why he took away Phoenix and Loundon and also tried to take away Long Beach as well in the first season...(I have quotes and video footage of the announcement if anyone interested) then lured all the big drivers and teams over, sponsers, it's pretty much a copy of the old CART, and as a result he's driven out all his original teams that were able to compete as the big boys wern't in town...
and Tim they had arrogance forming the U.S. 500 that year? I don't think so Tim... (sorry just had to say that lol) I think it was much more TG's side creating his own series and not allowing CART at Indy was more arrogance on his side. In my opinion the U.S. 500 was the better show to see that year, all the drivers and teams were at Michigan, then you had the likes of Sharp, Lazier, Brayton, Calkins at Indy with the rest of unknown drivers, where would have rather been Tim? No doubt at Indy?

[BootsOntheSide]

Marco Andretti, Buddy Lazier, Buddy Rice, Danica Patrick, Jeff Simmons, Scott Sharp, and so on. Compare that to ChampCars' number of North American drivers (as Canada and Mexico are clearly important markets to them). I'm not arguing with the fact that some inferior drivers get to race at Indy due to funding or sponsorship, but if the full or partial ChampCar field was trying to enter, there would be even fewer US drivers on the grid.

[Seoigh]

Originally Posted by Tim Northcutt

....there are at least 12-14 cars that could win it this year....

...can't they ALL win?

It's pretty much a spec series these days after all...though there DOES usually seem to be one go-kart faster than the others at every local U-WRECK-'EM....probaboly the same at IMS.

[Knowlesy]

I still look forwatd to the 500 every year, for the tradition mainly, but even so I still don't love it as I used to.

It feels more like "Round 4 of the IRL" year upon year, rather than the glorious event it was until the split.

It still holds interest of course, but it is teetering for me. I just don't get that tingle of anticipation I once did.

Still, I can always watch my old DVD's I suppose....

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by Tim Northcutt

Robby drove for AJ, then Derrick Walker, then went on his own....never drove for Ganassi as far as I can remember....state the year....

Their arrogance was the driving force behind the "US 500" at Michigan...they even ridiculed the field at Indy and said they "might not make it through the frist lap"...

Hendrick Motorsports saw talent and Ford did, too...but the Franchisees wanted others with cash...that's why jeff Gordon went to NASCAB

You never show up here until it is time to stir the crock....

Gordon drove some races for ganassi in 1992. That's how he got his break in CART.

They had every reason to have the US 500 because they were shut out of the INDY 500. Who was the arrogant one?

Sometime in the past, I read Jeff Gordons comments on his early career. He didn't exactly beat the bush looking for sponsors for indy lights and when ford came calling with a sweet deal, he took it and I don't blame him. If he really was so in love with the Indy 500 he could race there any time he wanted, even now. Maybe the Brickyard 400 was enough for him, as it is it's the bigger and better race now anyways.

I'm not here to stir the crock. I just don't want history rewritten to cast tony george as some great savior, in this case as protector of american drivers. At the point we are at right now a decade into this deal, what has been accomplished? This has all been for nothing.

[indycool]

mountainstar, you are ALWAYS here to stir the crock. Read some of your posts at CW sometime.

ensign, you mention Paul Durant, a supermodified veteran from the west coast, but you fail to mention Steve Kinser, Jack Hewitt, Billy Boat, Davey Hamilton, Jimmy Kite, Tony Stewart, Joe Gosek, Robbie Groff, Tyce Carlson, Billy Roe, Donnie Beechler, Jason Leffler, Andy Hillenburg and Sarah Fisher in your list of those short-track drivers who are now Indianapolis 500 veterans.

As far as "irrelevance" is concerned, it seems relevant to a 6.5 rating and 200-300,000 that come to the race.

[luke]

Indycool don't be hypocritical

And ensign only mentioned one driver as an example. 6.5 rating? Purely down to Danicar mania as since '96 it had slipped ratings wise...

And as for 200-300,000 attendance, wow, didn't it used to be 400,000 odd when it was a proper race?

[indycool]

Luke, ensign only mentioned ONE short-track racer.My point was that there were many who got their chance in the early stages of the IRL.

The rating is the rating, whether caused by Danicamania or not. even without it, the '04 rating of 4.7 was nearly DOUBLE the ratings for CC's whole season.

As for the 400,000, that's a long-standing myth that used to be estimated and reported at random with no basis. 300,000 has been a pretty close to viable estimate through the years, because as they've added seats upto what they have now, the GA infield areas that used to be packed have diminished.

And it still is, and always has been, a "proper race."

[luke]

Why compare the race to Champ Car's other races when Champ Car doesn't have the one big one and don't forget 2004 they were on Spike which is a nothing more then a crap channel.
The tv viewings this year so far for the IRL was, 0.8, 0.6, then 0.4 or 0.3....and that's on ESPN and ABC.

[indycool]

Last year, with CCon network part of the time like the IRL, the difference was about the same.

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by indycool

mountainstar, you are ALWAYS here to stir the crock. Read some of your posts at CW sometime.

read your posts at TF sometime indycool.

I'm not here to stir the crock, only state my opinion. You wouldn't notice, but I participate in almost all forums of ten-tenths, not just american open wheel racing.

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by indycool

ensign, you mention Paul Durant, a supermodified veteran from the west coast, but you fail to mention Steve Kinser, Jack Hewitt, Billy Boat, Davey Hamilton, Jimmy Kite, Tony Stewart, Joe Gosek, Robbie Groff, Tyce Carlson, Billy Roe, Donnie Beechler, Jason Leffler, Andy Hillenburg and Sarah Fisher in your list of those short-track drivers who are now Indianapolis 500 veterans.

They may be veterans but almost none managed to make a lasting career for themselves or become a 'star'. Good on em for making their dreams come true racing at indy, but once the engine dollars and the CARTpetbaggers turned up, those guys were quickly pushed aside in favor of road racers from brazil and elsewhere.

I believe it was donnie beechler that said recently he couldn't get one of those fancy badges to get access to the speedway and that it was almost like he had never raced there and was a nobody.

[ensign14]

Originally Posted by indycool

ensign, you mention Paul Durant, a supermodified veteran from the west coast, but you fail to mention Steve Kinser, Jack Hewitt, Billy Boat, Davey Hamilton, Jimmy Kite, Tony Stewart, Joe Gosek, Robbie Groff, Tyce Carlson, Billy Roe, Donnie Beechler, Jason Leffler, Andy Hillenburg and Sarah Fisher in your list of those short-track drivers who are now Indianapolis 500 veterans.

As far as "irrelevance" is concerned, it seems relevant to a 6.5 rating and 200-300,000 that come to the race.

Kinser and Hewitt had ONE shot each as a sop to those who complained about the Split. Even Pat Bedard and Chet Fillip had more. Hillenburg did a lot of NASCAR before getting to the 500.

But the proof of the pudding is in the eating. Where are they now? How many IRL wins did they have between them? Even including Stewart? Did Beechler and Carlson exactly distinguish themselves compared with the 107 year old Eliseo Salazar and Eddie Cheever? If not, why not? When TG needed drivers, did he decide to employ them? Or did he go for his stepson and a foreign road-course driver? When the likes of Penske and Andretti came in to outspend the likes of Buzz Calkins and Jim Guthrie, did TG give a flying monkey's toss?

Originally Posted by knowlesy

It feels more like "Round 4 of the IRL" year upon year, rather than the glorious event it was until the split.

Well that was the point. Any suggestion that the Split was to assist US short course drivers can be answered by looking at the Borg-Warner and seeing the faces of Cheever, Kenny Brack and Juan Pablo Montoya on it. It was solely to do with power and TG now runs a racing series. As a result he has castrated the Indy 500.

He had the responsibility built up over 80 years of careful nurturing and stewarding and had the greatest race in the world under his control. You had the CART championship being the greatest championship in the world, testing abilities on road courses, streets and ovals in roughly equal measure. With a hugely discredited Formula 1 on the other side of the Pond. And then he had his little ego-trip that has ruined it and handed supremacy Stateside to NASCAR on an absolute plate.

The only way to get any semblance of dignity is to merge. I don't really care how it happens or who runs it, just get them all back together. Until then the 500 will be a shadow of its former self.

Of course that will decrease the chances of the short-trackers to get to Indy. But somehow I don't think TG cares that much. Which short-trackers are at Indy right now? Lazier? Unser Jr? Those promising young stars...

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by luke

Why compare the race to Champ Car's other races when Champ Car doesn't have the one big one and don't forget 2004 they were on Spike which is a nothing more then a crap channel.
The tv viewings this year so far for the IRL was, 0.8, 0.6, then 0.4 or 0.3....and that's on ESPN and ABC.

Yes, that's why all this talk of the irl negotiating a merger from a "position of strength" is nonsense. The ratings for the irl are in the toilet, there is bare aluminum in the stands at most irl races including the current action at the speedway, sponsors are dropping out, teams are downsizing or going out of business, sponsors are not paying full rate for sponsorship, the engine manufacturer subsidies are gone, drivers are sniffing around for cab rides, etc.

In addition from what I've heard from people in indy is that there is no excitement or buzz about the race like there used to be.

[Seoigh]

Indy is cetainly 'irrelevant' THIS week at least....rain and cold have ruined everyones' plans.

[indycool]

ensign, you mentioned road racers that had a chance at Indy. I mentioned short-trackers. Indy was never intended to exclude anyone, foreign, domestic, short track or road racer. The trend, leading back before Mark Donohue, was steadily geared toward road racers with the advent of the rear-engine car. No surprise there.

"The Indy 500 is castrated." "It's irrelevant." "It's a shadow of its former self." We've heard this from CART/CC supporters for 10 years going on 11 now. You and mountainstar and luke can just keep believing as you like. In another 10 years, you'll still be grumping and frumping that the "500" is nothing without the Ricardo Speraficos and Fabrizio del Montes.

But the "500" will still be there, as it has been for 89 past runnings and about to be a 90th. Its TV ratings will remain probably double that of CC's whole season as it has been the last two years. And you can titter and totter on Internet message boards all you want about it, but it won't mean squat.

[luke]

Originally Posted by indycool

"The Indy 500 is castrated." "It's irrelevant." "It's a shadow of its former self." We've heard this from CART/CC supporters for 10 years going on 11 now. You and mountainstar and luke can just keep believing as you like. In another 10 years, you'll still be grumping and frumping that the "500" is nothing without the Ricardo Speraficos and Fabrizio del Montes.

But the "500" will still be there, as it has been for 89 past runnings and about to be a 90th. Its TV ratings will remain probably double that of CC's whole season as it has been the last two years. And you can titter and totter on Internet message boards all you want about it, but it won't mean squat.

I've followed the IRL since 2000 and Champ Car since 2001. At first when I saw the IRL i thought wow I'm finally watching Indy Car racing which I had wanted to see for years and head so much about it, sadly there was guys I hadn't heard of racing at ovals that were more suited to NASCAR. I wondered well when is there gonna be a little road racin'?
Then I saw CART and it was exciting, big names and everything Indy Car was because it was Indy Car but not called indy car anymore and didn't have indy. The only reason why I kept on watching the irl was because i couldn't see much of cart and I liked i mean loved hornish and still do to this day and liked watching al Unser jr still.
So the only Indy 500s i've seen in person are the IRL ones. sure it's still indy and still the 500 and highly prestigious and my favourite race of the year but don't kid yourself indycool that you can't compare the current or past irl indy 500s to the good old days of the golden era of cart.
as i said before i have the indy 500s from the '80s and '90s on dvd and love them, worship them ,watch them each every day, and no way can you compare them to the '98 Indy 500 I have on dvd which was the 3rd IRL indy 500.
That's why I wouldn't and most people who don't post at trackforum don't class it as great as it once was. Ask any winner who was running in cart at the time who did the race, ie montoya who blitized the field and said he only wished it was in a champ car and with the big boys...
if we had a merge i would personally class the indy 500 as a proper race again. and would book the first flight for a very expensive trip for the race what ever the circumstances.

[Knowlesy]

Yes, Montoya destroyed the IRL field at his first attempt.

Monty is a legend in my biased eyes, but still that reflects very badly on the state of the Indy 500. It has improved since then, but not immeasurably.

[JohnSSC]

Well then.

Five pages and the race is supposedly "irrelevant."

I have not yet made the trek to Indy, so my experience has been as a fan who has watched as many as possible on TV, read as much as I could and just generally followed the sport.

I fondly remeber the USAC days and yes, even the front-engine cars, the wail of the Novi engines and the darn near blasphemy of them little foreign cars with the engines in the back...

And here I am 42 years later (I only remember the races from when I was about 6) reading these posts, some good, some bad and some I just don't know why folks bother. Is Indy what it was ? No. Is any race? No. Why? Perspective. Time changes things and what we saw and first fell in love with does not remain forever unchanged. In our minds it stays "the same" as a sort of ideal but that does not mean that something has necessarily changed for the worse - it is just different right now.

A number of you post repeatedly deriding the quality of the field; making accusations of how this or that person "ruined" everything and how things can't be better until those individuals are abducted by aliens. That is your opinions and of course you are all entitled to them. But I will say this: those opinions really do not demonstrate to me a love of open wheel racing. They don't demonstrate a passion for the sport. Why? Because racing is all about rivalries and over the years no matter how intense the rivalry the racing went on. And that is the point that guys like Tim (and hopefully me at times) try to make: that Indy is all about the PASSION. The desire. To me, Indy is Jim Hurtubise. A Man. A man who had his burned hands molded so that the limited flexibility he had would allow him to grip the steering wheel so he could pursue the dream that nearly killed him. It would be instructive for some who have only been watching this since 2000, or even 1994 to go back to the USAC days and see what Indy means, has meant and will continue to mean. Personally, I don't give a good crap if Indy is sanctioned by International Harvester. I don't care how the race is viewed in Albania. I don't care who threw a tantrum first in 1995 or before that when the sainted CART owners threw THEIR tantrum against USAC or when the team owners threw their tantrum against AAA. Indy has always been "the 500." The fact that even today competing millionaires are jockeying to merge two sanctioning bodies almost expressly to be able to include that race (THE Race, really) in "their" series tells you everything you need to know about whether the 500 is still relevant.

The 500, LeMans, Monaco. These three venues will always be considered the pinnacle. We can argue until we turn blue about whether it is better now or that it was better in 1996, 1986, 1976, 1966, 1956 or whatever. These venues and their reputations were made by giants, and continue to be made by giants despite our petty unwillingness to recognize them as such. Read Team Owner's posts - anyone who cannot sense the thrill, the excitement he must be feeling to be at Indy is just really missing the boat.

I am not going to apologize for writing what I feel about Indy. I am not going to apologize for defending Indy. I wish those who have a personal axe to grind and want to spew venomous accusations about those involved in the IRL or CC would just go to some other forum and do so. There are so many here who are passionate about motorsports that there is and always will be an intense, interesting and fair discussion about American open wheel racing here.

A friend of mine has attended one 500. His wife told me that when the green dropped, he was actually standing there with tears in his eyes at the joy of it. One of these days I will be in the Turn 3 stands and I don't give a rat's butt if anyone sees the tears, but they will be there as I think on what Indy means to me and what it meant to Jim Hurtubise.

I can't wait for race day.

[indycool]

Great post, John....it cooled me down enough that I realized -- again -- what Indy means to those of us who enjoy it and have enjoyed it for years.

[luke]

So which race would you class better indycool and john? the 1995 Indy 500 or the 1996 Indy 500?
1995 all the stars and cars from the series. All the fans. Everything complete.
Or 1996, all the unkown didn't make it in CART, dirt racers, NASCAR headed drivers?

1995 qualifying speed difference from 1st to 33: 3mph difference.

1996 qualifying speed difference from 1st to 33: 11mph difference.

Surely the competitiveness had gone?



Where are the fans in qualifying?

Don't kid yourself guys that the legacy at Indy isn't as great as it once was.

[indycool]

Luke, I enjoyed the 1995 Indianapolis 500, the 1996 Indianapolis 500, the 1997 Indianapolis 500, the 1998 Indianapolis 500, the 1999 Indianapolis 500, the 2000 Indianapolis 500, the 2001 Indianapolis 500, the 2002 Indianapolis 500, the 2003 Indianapolis 500, the 2004 Indianapolis 500, the 2005 Indianapolis 500 and will enjoy the 2006 Indianapolis 500.

P.S. -- Your photo is from a practice day. The outside grandstand is closed on practice days.

[luke]

it was the 2nd qualifying day.

[indycool]

I would guess they are incorrect for one reason. After qualifying, the Speedway has a TV area set up for TV interviews, not a "scrum" that is shown in the photo. I believe the subject is Luyendyk. Luyendyk had taken the pole, then scott Brayton went out and beat him, then Luyendyk's car was DQ'd for being underweight. All on the FIRST day. This looks like an interview with Luyendyk after the car got DQ'd and qualifying had long ended for the day.

[paul-collins]

Originally Posted by JohnSSC

The 500, LeMans, Monaco. These three venues will always be considered the pinnacle. We can argue until we turn blue about whether it is better now or that it was better in 1996, 1986, 1976, 1966, 1956 or whatever. These venues and their reputations were made by giants, and continue to be made by giants despite our petty unwillingness to recognize them as such. Read Team Owner's posts - anyone who cannot sense the thrill, the excitement he must be feeling to be at Indy is just really missing the boat.

This is the best part of your excellent post, John.

Irrelevant? Not by a long shot. Diminished? I'd say so - but so was Le Mans a decade ago. These pinnacle events survive and eventually thrive again.