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7 Jul 2015, 08:28 (Ref:3556407) | #26 | |
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Join Date: Feb 2011
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The Fact of the matter here is not if Timmy was on or off the Track ...... While I admire the guts and driving of Timmy, just ask yourself if he hadn't used Ekstrom as a brake would the Peugeot have gotten around the corner? Yes Ekstrom was slower than timmy at the corner but was that not because he didn't have another car in front of him to help him lean on??
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7 Jul 2015, 08:28 (Ref:3556409) | #27 | |
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The ruling:
The curbs are not part of the track, that is my point with Ekström already on them you can not make a move like that "Penalty rule reads: "Moving the track markers or driving outside the circuit". Number of wheels not mentioned." ERC24 "Protest received from competitor competitor 21 (SuperCar) related to car number 21's five second time penalty in the Final of SuperCar (Pushing and driving outside the track)" Stewards Decision N5 Like Big Nut says, Ekström slowed down to take the corner and Hansen went faster to lean on Ekström |
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7 Jul 2015, 15:56 (Ref:3556524) | #28 | |
Racer
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 346
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Yeah the number of wheels isn't in the rules, and that should tell you something and seems precisely what you fail to understand.
How it is written AND how the stewards ruled in decision #5, a car 'driving outside the track' means leaving the track completely, the whole car. And how is that 'measured'? By looking if there is still a wheel on the track. Easy as that. In the protest meeting they reviewed the onboards and pro-video recordings and the conclusion was = didn't leave the track. Timmy has that in writing, with 3 signatures and all. Why can't you accept that? Indeed, the kerbs are not the track, I know, I can read too. So what? If Ekstrom is on them, there is no rule that someone else isn't allowed on them, or go on or even over them further without 'leaving the track' . Ekstrom had every right the take the same line Timmy did, but he set up to make a more tidy line around the corner. Slower. If, didn't happen so of nil relevance, if they have had the same speed, nothing would have happened and there would be no discussion. In decision #5 you quote, it says the penalty was given for both offenses and was given 5 seconds extra. They didn't just quote a random rule there, they listed the offenses for which the penalty was given. Then he would be 4th. This penalty was taken away after the protest because he wasn't off the track. Read it again. He's left with a penalty for pushing. And we all saw he did a bit of that. And it costs him 1 place. Conclusion, it was a naughty move, but only costs the next driver(s) who makes the same move, 1 place. Ask Timmy, he has that in writing, with 3 signatures by FIA delegates. It doesn't matter that you don't like it. IMG by word of the FIA says: this is rallycross and we like it. Almost 99% like it. Still think it's 1% naughty. Of course he isn't penalized for something that could happen, it wouldn't stand in protest, appeal for the ASN or FIA court appeal. That's utter nonsense to suggest. So that's not a question. While I can't make up stories about what Ekstrom thought he would do with the last corner, you looked in the mind of Timmy and tell us 'he went faster to lean on Ekstrom'. Right. Fantasy story time. I say, Timmy went for a last rush in the last corner, also because Bakkerud filled his rear view mirrors more and more and surprise surprise then met with a slow moving/breaktesting(?) Ekstrom in the last corner, unexpectedly! Trying to move past the slower car in front off him that clearly is in granny mode, he tries to get past it by the inside, because he can't go outside it anymore, hence his line. Who would expect a granny on the racetrack!?!? So, the move wasn't voluntary but forced up on him by Ekstrom. Should have been given 1th and 2nd place to compensate. </end of fantasy> Woeps, didn't see all facebook msgs before posting about what you quoted by erc24, never mind. Last edited by rallycrossnl; 7 Jul 2015 at 16:16. |
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7 Jul 2015, 16:46 (Ref:3556530) | #29 | |
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Fantasy story time? Bakkerud could never have passed Hansen because Bakkerud was to far back, I don't think he could see him in the mirror either before moving past Ekström. Besides, he was not forced to make the move and Ekström never went "granny mode". Quite simply Hansen went faster to make the pass on Ekström. If Ekström had not been there he would never have made the corner as he used Ekström to lean on.
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7 Jul 2015, 18:57 (Ref:3556570) | #30 | |
Racer
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 346
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First, apologies, apparently I didn't make it clear enough for you. That was my fantasy about what happened. You gave me the right to do that.
I wrote that because you invented the story about how you can read Timmy's mind and know that he deliberately went too fast into the corner because he was sure he could lean onto the other car. It was my version of how things can be explained, not necessarily true, but a very good alternative view opposed to your shaky one. You think you saw that happen, but you can't read peoples minds. Nope sir, no way. Don't tell me you can know what he thought, that's cowdoody. We simply don't know if he could have made the corner, because that version of reality didn't happen in this universe, so you only can guess that and by that isn't relevant. Would he have gone wide? Yeah probably. Would he have gone off? Todays cars are very grippy on tarmac, so I bet No. Relevance = 0 tho. But that's counting outside the angle of attack he did, very probably made because he was confronted with a slower then expected car in front of him. What if this was a first corner collision? Although I can't read minds either, but still I am 100% sure you wouldn't have posted about it. Am I the only one who thinks along the lines I do? Apparently not, the stewards seem to have thought it was not 'deliberate enough collision' to black flag him, or another heavy penalty for reckless driving etc. #5. again. Only 1 place down in the result list. Facts my friend, facts. |
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7 Jul 2015, 19:29 (Ref:3556583) | #31 | ||
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I do very much enjoy the tv coverage. I no there's only a set time alicated but so miss seeing the other Supercars that are on the entry list. Could do with event DVDs for sale.
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7 Jul 2015, 22:20 (Ref:3556632) | #32 | |
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Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 755
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Me too Barrie, would love to see the other action as well. Maybe even without the narrators voice, not because it is bad, but to listen to the cars, just like when attending the event live...
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7 Jul 2015, 22:46 (Ref:3556637) | #33 | ||
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But he is the "voice of rallycross" dont you know.
Not seen it, doubt I will as you cant watch the livestream events from last years European races still, so cant comment. But Holjes is a Swedish version of Goodwood really, bonkers people, if you have haeard of Gatebil at Rudskogen you gget the idea |
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8 Jul 2015, 04:54 (Ref:3556680) | #34 | |
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Yeah I know Gatebil, is very good to combine: is close-by and the following weekend...
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9 Jul 2015, 19:09 (Ref:3557079) | #35 | ||
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Join Date: Feb 2006
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Long time not being here. My very own point of view: Ekström was clearly in the lead, driving with two wheels over the kerbs. There was no gap for another car, so Hansen had to produce one by crowbar. Had he got the 5 second penalty he would have finished 4th overall, therefore making him runner-up has simply re-established the situation after the last jump and was a diplomatic and good decision.
Ahhh, and before I forget: If they set up a single armco there such problems will not occur. |
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"Sometimes he wonders as the years go past, how’d he ever go so fast and get nowhere…" (David Munyon, from 'Super Blue' on his 'Acrylic Teepees' CD) |
9 Jul 2015, 20:59 (Ref:3557117) | #36 | |
Racer
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 266
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Right as usual guru.
TH is a nice kid and a very good driver but how anyone can favour him in this debate is beyond me |
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10 Jul 2015, 07:32 (Ref:3557228) | #37 | |
Racer
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 346
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Firstly, everyone has the right to favor anyone, so do not question that, this ain't north Korea.
2nd, I don't favor him, the earliest writings about the incident were fantasies about how no one is allowed on the kerb while someone else is there like a moving car is a still standing object and other self invented rules that don't excist in rallycross ,for instance how you aren't allowed to drive too fast into a corner which you then possibly overshoot etc and what Timmy was thinking at the time, something which no one can know. That's what I reacted too. Besides that, I too said the move was bold, on the edge. And my biggest, foremost point of argument is that it couldn't have happened had Ekstrom raced to the finish instead of 'cruising', not that it is his fault, like always, the car behind is faulty. That's why the stewards ruling is fair. 3th FIA stewards say: this is an almost ok move, 99% ok. And I agree. Nothing to do with whom were driving, this is rallycross, and I like it. If this was a 1th lap 1th corner incident, nobody would talk about it. Why make a difference for a last corner? Everybody would say, great pass!, TH is first out of the 1th corner! Good lesson for every driver was learned tho, keep your foot down until over the finishline, don't slowdown before the last corner if you want to win. If this was F1, he would have gotten blue flag. |
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10 Jul 2015, 12:57 (Ref:3557291) | #38 | ||
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Hansen was under immense pressure, the only times I ever saw Kenneth drive beyond himself were usually in Sweden or Norway were these guys are under the kind of pressure they do not normally race under in other places in the world, home races, home sponsors etc. No matter what it should mean, it DOES affect them.
Move was OTT and he was docked, totally fair in my eyes, corner always encourages it, always has, Hunsbedt was a total banger driver there over the years, pile it over the hill a bit quicker than normal and dive in on the brakes, use the other guy as a berm, it's a rubbish corner that totally invites contact. WRX would love it of course. |
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10 Jul 2015, 19:11 (Ref:3557383) | #39 | ||
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People make mistakes, and that wasn't a huge one. But obvilously the car in front was just a few centimeters from the apex before it was crashed from behind.
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11 Jul 2015, 07:58 (Ref:3557490) | #40 | ||
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People take risks in Rallycross, as they have always done. Timmy does it like his father did and others did as well. Some took more risks, others less. Some feel subsequently lucky, others don't. As long as the Stewards of the Meeting are not blind or too weak to take a decision all is fine in the land of Rallycross.
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"Sometimes he wonders as the years go past, how’d he ever go so fast and get nowhere…" (David Munyon, from 'Super Blue' on his 'Acrylic Teepees' CD) |
2 Dec 2015, 17:52 (Ref:3595000) | #41 | ||
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Forgive me for resurrecting such an old thread, but EKS just uploaded a documentary on the Holjes weekend:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mAKoB8Tu3T4 |
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5 Dec 2015, 14:19 (Ref:3595678) | #42 | ||
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Quote:
Added it to my "to watch" list. |
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