Historic Racing and Historic Racing Today Forum-Where is it going ?

[simon drabble]

without changing the direction of the thread cars were bent in period. The winning Jaguar at the 1963 ETCC race we looked at on the other thread was disqualified for having a hooky engine and the other Jaguars apparently left PDQ after the race.

There will always be a team that are so desperate to win they will cheat - to create a perfect series of straight cars is the motoring equivalent of Marxism. Dont get me wrong - I would love to race on a level playing field but its Utopia.

What the organizors can and should do is throw out cars that are found out - short term its a brave move as it could decimate grids (how many 6 Hour cars would pass?!) but when word gets out that its a being run properly it will become a "must do" series. That is why Carol's GD was a great success and why the Pre 63 GT was as well. Curiously both grids were selected from the entries - maybe that is the way forward

[terence]

But it wasn't so long ago that two GT40s and a few ultra lightweight Porsche 911s were thrown out of the 6hr Simon,it CAN be done.Probably not in our present un-economic climate but even so,now is probably the right time for the organizers to start making the right noise's with threats of exclusion/not being allowed to race etc.The idea of a logbook or declaration document that is signed by both owner,prepper that the car conforms to a given set of reg's,good idea but unfortunately is still open to those desparate enough to blatantly lie about the cars conformity.Snowball effect just carries on!

[john ruston]

What have the last few posts from the mafia got to do with the original question.
We have an extremely well thought out piece from grantp,assume I know who that is,and we talk about specifics not the general direction of the pastime we are all interested in.
Yep,we know half the top ten cars at 6 hrs were allegedly bent and B's and E types are under the microscope but this has been covered a dozen times on many threads.
Lateral and original thinking required preferably by occasional posters but if the old lags have something sensible to say get on with it.

[grantp]

Originally Posted by john ruston

We have an extremely well thought out piece from grantp, ...

Thank you John, although on my re-reading I could have been clearer (and better constructed) than it is.

One obvious error for which a correction may add something to the sense of it:

"Will FPS ever have an Historic role? Or for that matter the 2009 version of F2?"

should have read

"Will FPA ever have an Historic role? Or for that matter the 2009 version of F2?"

Following on from Simon Drabble's post - one could argue (tongue in cheek) that 'straight' period cars may not actually be 'as raced in period' without the period 'cheats' in place and thus, if one could document those adjustments, they should be allowed. In fact perhaps they should be required!

But more generally the controlled single make series that exist in current times don't seem to offer much of a continuation route for the 20 or so years that pass before people start to consider something Classic or Historic. This maybe more true of single seaters than sports cars of course.

What do you do with a single seater when it's track career ends? Historics seems to come either from collections based on a specific car and/or its driver or are recovered (for track use) from other branches of the sport - sprinting or hill climbing for example - where they departed into semi-retirement with some modifications.

Absent the ability to modify much the semi-retirement route may need a different direction and given the pooling nature of one make events and the seemingly constant changes of driver line up for the teams along with 'career' drivers moving through different categories quickly the historic collection angle becomes a bit meaningless as well. So what will is be that keeps these cars together for historic purposes? And will there ever be enough around at one time in one place to encourage the creation of a one make recreation event?

Maybe we will see F Renault and F3 combined, perhaps with a few others, to make something of a spectacle and some specialist organisations may be created to provide engineering services to support that idea. That would be fine (although with all the formula cars looking the same it may not be very visually interesting) but leaves little room for the grass roots DIY owner on which the grid numbers rely.

Absent the less affluent owners (assuming they cannot readily afford to pay for services in new technology whereas today the work can mean they simply use their time rather than pay for someone else's) the event is diminished. Perhaps we will see many historic events moving to private meetings at places like the Ascari Resort but only for those who can afford to play in that company.

The thing that I can't get a grip on is what will motivate the current generation, joining the motor sport party attached to the modern cars and events, to want any form of Historic track activity in 20 or 30 years from now?

Where are the characters - cars as well as drivers - that provide a personal connection and identifiable focal point? There may be something in the BTCC history -at least it offers chassis variety and some sense of driver continuity - and possibly in the GT arena too, at least for the chassis if not the drivers.

I think part of the aura that surrounded my early years of interest - mid 60s to mid 70s - came from seeing (or reading about) the 'names' of the time driving in diverse events often flying around the world to do so. Links to the 'big names' helped to cement a broad relationship of all types and classes.

These days drivers tend to be very specialized, especially those who become 'household names', using the term loosely. Drivers appear from nowhere and disappear just as quickly (into specialized niches if they are lucky ...). I just can't see the hooks that will make much of today's racing interesting enough for the sort of historic scene, as we know it today, to exist 20 or perhaps 30 years from now.

That said 20 or 30 years seems to be a much longer time these days than it used to be. Rate of technological development and all that. Who knows, use of fossil fuel engines for any reason might be banned by then meaning that pretty much nothing of the current racing scene would be available for active use. Museum stuff only. In which case none of this would matter one jot and we would have a legally enforcible answer to the original question.

[terence]

To add to the second part of the original question,10 Tenths [apart from an opportunity to take the odd pop at other posters] is a very good source of info for those not wealthy enough to have a team look after their cars for them.A good thing? perhaps,but then again if that team is building a car that doe's not quite conform just to make the owner think they have done a 'fantastic' job on his car,perhaps not.It is also a very good way of making new,like minded friends [or enemies!] Apart from that,its a good place to have a look and see who's doing what and where whilst bored out of ones skull whilst recuperating.Where's it going? probably nowhere different to where it is now based on any new posters seem to only come on here for help or advice,or just to try a make new friends?

[driftwood]

I have done some speed reading through this thread

one of my thoughts is that the earlier historic cars say the 50`s and 60`s cars are 1 so damned expensive tpo buy and 2 becoming a source of vintage cars rather than historic with the moving age population who could drive them

I know of around 10 drivers who have bus passes and soon pension books who will soon retire in the coming years some have no younger family members to drive the collection and so it will be sold but WHO will buy these older cars?

as grantp said earleir the 25 30 somethings of today doing club events will not want in say 10 years time to buy a race car they never saw racing and will seek out cars they saw as kids or a bit older that their fathers talk about

I love race cars and I have a collection of historic alloy tubbed Gp6 sports car & F2 cars as well as a Gp5 BMW I recall seeing Ronnie P in 1 at Brands `77 1000 km race and subconciously always wanted 1 so one day i could afford ( just) to buy one !
I also have modern F3 cars and a newish FFord to run at certain events in the season plus i have bought a BTCC car/project
Im torn between historic race cars i saw as a kid at major and club events and the modern safer better engineered cars trust me I am not a snob like some folk are in the historic world i buy cars i like and that can be raced
There are those that buy cars to do "certain" historic festivals and then profit from later
HSCC events are cut off at pre 80 some grids are low so why not open up certain classes to "newer" cars?
After all historic racing started when the cars where arund 10 years old and 30 years later we stil have the same cut off dates so how can you encourage new blood into historic racing if all they have to offer are some cars that where new before these drivers where born or possibly not watched by their fathers !!

There are some categories that will never appeal as Historic ie radical Frenault 1 make series
Will HSCC run events for post 80 cars say to 85 or 89 to let in say F2 F3000 turbo F1 cars?
Group C events run from 1981 to 92 yet most cars are post 88 that race in that series
Classic saloon car club has moved with the times
again as a kid i watched pre 57 cars race then along came pre 65 saloons and i had a go at that series as my entry level car racing after karts before i had a bash at Fford
Then the club opened up to pre 74 and i did the "tester" race with a mixture of pre 65 and 74 cars
Now the classic club has pre 83? series and moved from pure appendix K type rules towards Gp 1 1/2 / A cars

There are hundreds of cars out thare that can race but the reality is motor racing is expensive and its hard to justify new series say pre 85 Fford or pr 89 FF2000 in the UK and we do also have way too many series

With the high cost of circut hire insurance fuel let alone cost of race cars and prepping its no wonder that some Masters events loose money and throwing in a late date race doe snot aid the process

My view is less is more with Historic events run fewer meetings make them 2 day festivals with certain series on 1 day and anther bunch the next day this will save on cost for 3 nights hotel
With overseas events cheap ferry deals are needed and maybe truck sharing to get cars to the events to fill the grids

on the subject of hooky cars well Max/FIA allowed that can of worms to slither through when it could so easily have been knocked on the head with a ten ton mallet and to me that is a thread on its own!

[Al Weyman]

Well John R has now said that those with more tha 1000 posts can join in I will post again on this thread if I may be so bold and I agree with him lets not start banging on about cheating again in historics.

What you said Driftwood about the pre-66 thing not moving forward is bang on and infact my first post on this thread I asked exactly the same question but deleted for fear of upsetting the majority. But is true just why has it got stuck in pre 66 and to my mind thats some of the problem. All it does is make certain models blessed by the fact that they were fitted with some engine option or other highly desirable (read bloody expensive eg. Lotus Cortina, early Mustangs) and others after that cut off date that could easy compete not so.

I mean is there is a european Ford in the pre-66 catagoury that can stand on its own in true Apps K apart from the Lotus Cortina (maybe GT but reading here I think Zef struggles to catch the LC's) as a 1200cc Anglia dont cut it in my book and yet incredibly there is one in Octane this month for £30,000!!!! I mean think about that £30,000 for a 1200cc Kent engined Anglia on steel wheels its just ridiculous IMHO and I appologise in advance to the owner and any modern affordable 1600cc hatch will blow it out the water.

And forgive me if I again mention CTCRC but we as a club do also move with the times as well as the CSCC and have catagouries for later cars and has also been suggested do allow certain modifications on some models (eg 1500cc Anglia) and I think its about time some of the purist series started doing the same. I mean is anyone going to tell me that my old car that gets attention where ever it appears with young kids getting their dads to take pictures of them with the car and it will be 40 years old next year is not Historic? Yet the beauty with these in traditional GM fashion apart from some cosmetic changes the basic car was about from 1970 till 82 so plenty of oppertunities to build a reasonably priced replica. Same as Capris you can still pick up an old base car reasonably cheaply and I know a championship winner roller less engine for £3500, now compare that to the 1200cc Anglia or the £60,000 I heard someone spent on an A40, I know what I would prefer to drive and what will bring a bigger grin to the majorities faces.

With reference to keeping everything strictly as was instead of a bit of latitude that can be damned expensive as well. Take brakes and trying to get drums or old disc calipers to work. I tried this on my Chevy when I first got it and the single pot sliding calipers pads lasted about one meeting same as the guy I was talking to who runs in HSCC and his pads were well over a £100 a pop, I have Wilwood GN on it now and they cost £140 a set of pads and last a whole season, so maybe this is something at that puts people off it certainly was the Mustang owner. (That was a 71 incidently the old one had four pots, its what they call progress!). Do what we do in CTCRC, original diameter wheels brakes to fit with in do what you want but needs handbrake, job done!

So as Driftwood says maybe this all needs moving on a bit and as the age for cars being exempt from road tax is what 73/74 that sounds a good natural starting point to me.

I'm back down the workshop almost ready for the Rock next weekend! :-)

[driftwood]

Its not just saloon cars that have silly money price tags on rebuild cost on them look at historic F1 F2 Gp 6 sports cars all i hear are prices that equate to house prices not car prices !
IF tighter policing of car specs where introduced the silly money would not be spent by the few who can easily afford it and it forces those who cant really affor dit to sacrifce something to compete or run a car at a lower spec engine/prepped standrd to suit their bank balance
It would also stop these replica continuation fake rebuild cars appearing claiming to be so n so`s car
ALL these cars should be running to teh engine spec power output damper spring length disc size calipre type pad compound as they did in 71 74 78 or whatever the cut off date is
I would even go as far as to suggest the tyre compound shuld be a fixed compound or even harder spec to be more in line with the period
IE Chevron B19 car today laps 3 seconds faster than in period with an aging club racer compared to the young wannabe in its day at International level
Im not in favour of the rule that the Ozzies have for historic cars of the individual car chassis number must run thesame type motor it ran in period BUT i would like to see a limitation on any car running any motor in the chassis and make it a bit more specific
lets say B19 that ran FVC cannot fit BDG of 2009 vintage and spec giving 300 bhp
I dont have the answers right now but there is a way to implement specs and regulations after reading period race reports and data to cap the silly money silly engine specs and some harsh penalties being implemented IE banning that chassis numbered car for 10 years from the series
This will deter the cheats who once banned cannot sell their car

Also by rolling cut off dates forward this will stop the silly price tags of certain cars as well as bring in new blood who dont want to race the old cars they never saw racing but like the 1980`s spec car

[Al Weyman]

See I cannot agree with having to run everything as per period thisis when you get the one model coming to the fore because someone or other happened to homologate something in period. This is why we have the bizarre situation with the Corvette where the 350 Small block has to run with drum brakes but the big block can run with discs (or the other way round feel free to correct me), where is the sense in that? And also a lot of this flexing of the regs is simply because with such a vaste range of models I can imagine its virtually impossible for the scrutineers. So why not just move it forward and say externally identifiable engine running at the correct cc all other internal mods free, electronic ignition OK, gerabox and transmission as per originals but allow exceptions if one model has inherent weaknesses or parts are no longer available, brakes free as long as they fit in the standard wheel diameters, oh s*** I have done it again, just described the CTCRC regs. Opps sorry.

[driftwood]

i totally disagree
you let it be free we have higher costs on fancy parts big bore heads recast to accomodate larger valves etc
may i respectfully suggest to stop quoting saloon car stuff as your datum
Historic racing is much more than that
For saloon cars there is a homologation sheet as far as i am concerned rules are set in black n white no point btchin n whinin that the 67 car has better parts then the 66 car the cut off date is set so you have to work within that window
with sports cars F1 F2 cars there where period parts specs that have been taken off the car thrown out the window and now cars are running modern dampers brake pad compound tyre specs short springs

chassis with repositioned pick up points ride hieghts etc etc
engines are new head block castings new design of rods and materals used to make them reprofiled cams etc all giving 20-35% more power than in period
bodywork made in kevlar wings that have been reprofiled with 2009 knowledge and nopt the 73 profile as they ran

Add to this guys buying the real car to restore then actually building new chassi uprighst engines etc to make the car fitting the plate
show me the real car and its in the shed only the plate being the original item off the car
then we have the continuation build cars what nonsense that is

[Al Weyman]

you let it be free we have higher costs on fancy parts big bore heads recast to accomodate larger valves etc

I said externally identifiable as the original did'nt I? As for the rest carry on as before then and have the spectacle of the £30k Anglebox, I will carry on doing what I enjoy for a fraction of the cost. Funny thing was Driftwood I must have misread your post as I thought you were saying one of the problems was the pre66 cut off thing and not moving forward which I agree with and why I posted back, I was obviously wrong so excuse the intrusion and back out to the garage :-).

Dont you guys get it you are all moaning about bent cars but it seems to me there is no way to stop it so let in certain modifications and have done just check what you can externally!

[terence]

Totally agree driftwood,most of those points having been discussed many times over but as Simon H suggested is now the time to call a halt to all of this 'development'?.IF the policing HAD been carried out without bias or fear of loosing a few cars off of any grid 12/15 years ago,the development would not have continued un-abated in the first place.It is human nature to always look for an advantage over a rival,thats what needs controling!

[Al Weyman]

You know the more I think about this the more I come to the conclusion the whole problem is because in period when these rules were set there was so much more at stake and it was all new like the equivilant championships today. There where manufacturers involved who would spend probably the equivilant of a few hundred grand by todays prices on homologating a certain specific component and maybe millions homologating a car because it was obviously worth it to see their cars in the winning circle also the scruts would have been bang up to date with all the latest info. What do you have these days, a bunch of amature racers and amature (by that I mean unpaid) scruts so how can this level of checking of cars that happened in period be maintained, it simply can't surely or you would have no racing at all. You have a few minutes per car in the scrutineering bay so how can these extensive tests you are calling for be carried out and what is at stake, a bit of amature pride and red faces getting found out nothing compared to a manufacturer getting rumbled in period with the damage it would do the product they were trying to promote and no one willing to protest and this is not just in the upper echelons of historic racing trust me.

Who knows maybe CSCC have a point with their regs that hardly require a scrutineer and just get by penalising faster and winning cars with a longer pitstop.

[driftwood]

Al yes you had mis read posting
1 i refered to HSCC pre 90 cut off however i was also applauding the logical move the CSCC made with pre 57 then pre 65 ( FIA went pre 66) and onto pre 74 pre 81 for saloon cars as it drew in new blood
2 why make external parts look the same its INTERNAL where the $ is spent clamp down on cheating with draconian punishments
the rich folk will cast new blocks with old casting numbers a la mini and ford 289 and install newer logic that you cannot see

also please note people are far more wealthier today than 20 or 30 years ago and will pay more money than sense for a car that gets them to the "right" event or onto the podium just look at the prep shops of today staffing levels trucks etc used
let alone tyres used spare engines in truck etc etc weekly testing infamous guest drivers in enduro races that have palms crossed with silver to get the car up front so owner can take car over the line to "win"

The problem is WHO should "police" it? FIA? well the stuffed it all in first place with HTP nonsense that "legalised" the fakes and bitsa`s plus allowed the continuation cars
RACMSA are bound by FIA rules
Many FIA insepctors know which cars are "wrong" but have no powers now thanks to basement Max
only people who can clamp down are the series organisers but all have false teeth and the courage of the lion in Wizard of Oz as they dont want to scare away the "paying" customer

[aws]

the problem is spec and who makes sure its right, not when or who a car is built, that only becomes a problem when you say you have the particular car and its a very minor part of that car, for sure should anyone wish to spend say 500K building a D type because they didnt want to spend 2.5 Mil on a real one is no matter unless they then say it a 57 Le Mans car, to a degree HTP's are good, how many MGB's were originally race cars or for a few more bucks a Shelby. the HTP's to some degree have made historics more affordable...
a FAKE is only that if you try and pass it off as a particular car
a FAKE is some thing that looks like it should on the outside but built on a mondeo chassis
FIA papers dint stop moody cars not by a long shot
At least the HTP's use to state year represented although that has changed a little and the wording may not seem right anymore
To a large degree we all know the real and the not so

[aws]

Oh to make it clear for just a few more bucks you cant turn a MGB into a Shelby!!

[Redneck Rocket]

Originally Posted by driftwood

I know of around 10 drivers who have bus passes and soon pension books who will soon retire in the coming years some have no younger family members to drive the collection and so it will be sold but WHO will buy these older cars?

as grantp said earleir the 25 30 somethings of today doing club events will not want in say 10 years time to buy a race car they never saw racing and will seek out cars they saw as kids or a bit older that their fathers talk about

Not all of us!!! I was born in 1980 and the vast majority of the cars I would choose to have a go in if I had the chance were built and raced before I was born. I have friends for whom the same is true. Went to a press day at Brands a couple of years back and we were all offered demonstration rides - Matt Neal in his BTCC, the big trucks, back of Kyonari's Superbike, WTCC Mercedes... everyone cued up for a go in those and we were the only two down the other end of the paddock strapping into the passenger seat of Richard Meins' GT40.

[Moosehead]

Thought this thread was about this forum and where it was going?

Why does it have to go anywhere? Its an open forum to discuss the various merits etc of Historic racing as it happens today. Its a pretty useful media for getting information on upcoming events and also provides 'insider' info on past meetings.

As to the actual racing................well, I think that we are lucky that there are series/championships to suit just about everyones pocket and also varying levels of 'modification'. I certainly could not afford to run my car in the supposedly more standard spec of App k racing whereas the CSCC with its' more open rules allows me to run cheaper off the shelf parts.

Its a shame that the 'top level' of the sport contains so many bent cars but rules breed cheaters and always has.

The one annoying thing I always get from this forum is that I always feel that those who compete in AppK (the supposedly top level) appear to regard those that don't as inferior or that we run 'Hot Rods' which are not true historic race cars.

Oh, and yes I'm talking about saloons because that is what I own. I would love a T70 and be able to talk about that but I'm just an average working guy with a mortgage and unless my numbers come up said T70 is but a dream.

[driftwood]

a FAKE is only that if you try and pass it off as a particular car
a FAKE is some thing that looks like it should on the outside but built on a mondeo chassis
FIA papers dint stop moody cars not by a long shot
to me a fake is a car NOT made in period by the manufacturer ie some one who takes 762 march tub and build s761 car with dfb fg400 gerabox and makes new parts
or a man with flat alloy sheet folds & rivets it into a lola T290 tub
or length of tube creates B8 16 19 car and then adds a plate to it
or takes the number of a car that was well documented in period as being crashed destroyed never rebuilt again
Fake replica same thing to me
I will accept the original car being grandftahers axe with 3 new uprights 1 new tub/chassis as that is general wear n tear racing crashing rebuilding of a car
i can even accept a reasonable original car being stripped re revitted on chassis new body fitted ( economically cheaper to fit new GRP body than repair old unit and paint)
i have a pair of old work boots now on 3rd sole 5th set new laces still my old work boots

the HTP allowed the moody car sto become "legit"
FIA never had central data base hence 3 cars with same chassis number across EEC usa UK
i know chevron B16#36 is replicated twice with not a single original car part fitted BUT the real chasis body plate went to usa 1972 been there ever since now is rebuilt

[aws]

thought the thread was about historic racing and where that goes .. sorry my mistake.. as for what spec a car is, i think its good that there is all sorts of levels and dont regard app K as be all and end all, only that cars run in what they should which sounds exactly what you ae doing Moose...
I for one dont subscribe to the 'better than youww' crowd far from it, i'm an ordinary workin guy with a morgage too.. just happen to have customers more fortunate (finacially) life is like a sh!t sandwich the more bread you got the easyer it is to swollow.. but we'er all still eating sh!t, but more bread may mean more of the other!!!

[aws]

Driftwood how can you call a car built last week to the exact spec as it should have left its original manufaturer in period a fake, when possible it is built to a more orignal spec the the real pukka car, it is only a fake if it is passed off as original car.
Triggers broom with 5 new handles and 10 new heads is not the original broom
if an xkss is converted back to a D is that a fake, jag built it originally as a D or is a fiberglass D is ok from what you say!!!.
turning something into something it wasnt is wrong using the same identity on several cars is wrong, build a new car to exact spec and calling it a recreation continuation.. sorry but i dont see the problem , the only thing you could say is that owners may risk a repo over the real thing and thats not fair on the real car owners.

[terence]

One other thing to consider is the organizing clubs. Is it not true that most 'historic' race organizers have their own take on what should/shouldn't be allowed? Surely if a car is classed as conforming to say,the HSCC,that same car SHOULD be ok to race in any organizers series? Sad as it may be,this doe's not seem to be the case.Historic/FIA whatever=one set of rules.Not bending them just in order to let Bert race his bent car because he has raced with us for donkeys years/has a rather large bank account,is on the board.ONE rule for everyone.This thread will take on everything else that has been said time and time again,unless action is taken soon,historic racing will disappear up its own inconell exhaust pipe.

[aws]

maybe if you have a car that races in HSCC that lets say is not appp K, thenwants to race in masters lets say should be app K then have a sub class within that race that allows for period cars not conforming to app K, i thought there was something like this already but maybe not!!??

[grantp]

Originally Posted by Redneck Rocket

Not all of us!!! I was born in 1980 and the vast majority of the cars I would choose to have a go in if I had the chance were built and raced before I was born. I have friends for whom the same is true. ........ we were the only two down the other end of the paddock strapping into the passenger seat of Richard Meins' GT40.

Exactly what I was attempting to say earlier. Whilst there will always be people with what we could think of as special interest that are not directly related to their formative period in their teens and twenties (come on, admit it how many of you still relate to your mid 20s as memorable times and the rest has just been life ...) there are typically far fewer who take an active interest in earlier times. Some for sure, but not too many.

In another thread today someone marshalling at Oulton mentioned the pleasure of seeing a big Healey being driven at its (or the driver's) limits.

One of the joys of most, if not all, forms of Historic racing as that the cars do that. As they did in period. (Well, mostly given modern tyres and stuff ...).

So, if I was a young person wanting to experience the joys of tail out motoring without the mud and gravel of a rally, naturally I would gravitate to .... well, probably drifting I guess.

Ultimately I don't really think the issues about Historic Motor Sport relate to whether or not cars fit within the rules or even come close to the spirit of the rules. At some point it is likely that the current top value and rare cars become museum pieces only and the core of weekend by weekend working cars simply evaporates as existing afficiandos become past interest and too little fresh blood joins in to fill the void. I think that was a point that driftwood made a few posts back.

So presumably the balance shifts with older cars moving towards a graceful retirement and just a few races per annum available to them and their specal supporters, and whatever can be salvaged as an historic concept from the 80s and 90s will come to the fore. At that point interpretation of the rules will get very interesting since it seems to me, thoug I may be wrong, that much of the more attention grabbing racing in that time was using entirely specialised vehicles that the average person would have no chance of operating.

So will historics become a form of silhouette not unlike the way that some of the 90s F1 cars are re-developed - indeed have to be if they are to be seen in action at all - to be able to use angines, gearboxes and other components to replace items that are simply not likely to be available again as originals? Once you accept the need for that compromise in one set of rules the decision to compromise elsewhere also becomes easier.

I know of a chap in the States who bought and renovated, over a period of many years, a Porsche 907 with a good pedigree. It looks good. He takes it to shows and has from time to time put it on track in historic events. But he is not an especially rich man and engine reliability is a worry since the replacements and parts are simply not available. So should he drive it and break an engine he is in for a huge bill that would be difficult to justify personally. On the other hand the car is probably worth a lot of money and he could potentially sell it (a bit if a wrench having put so much effort into it over such a long period), buy something less exotic but still historic and go out and have some fun. Newcomers presumably would have similar concerns to deal with before they dive in.

Of course there are some cars that might be considered timeless and still look as good today as they did when they were first built. Many of the sports cars from the mid sixties to mid 70s seem to fit into that in a way that later dedicated racing sports cars, awesome as they were, simply do not. In that respect there are opportunities to attract new, young blood into the historic world.

And that is, perhaps, where this forum and others like it could help. The joys of driving historic cars, he different styles required and the engineering challenges they represent to those who choose to 'play' with them might, when well presented, entice fresh (and younger) interest and provide a source of continuity.

Maybe.

[driftwood]

Terence you are right that some folk have iffy cars and cos he is a past regular racer possibly with good period cars in collection/raced in their series many years has a larger todger/bigger bank account than most of us and a nice well known prep shop doing his cars its all right for him to run bent cars- isit buggery the rules are the rules if he turns up with bent car send him home humiliated
when he ha shad teh tantrum in his bedroom he can come back to race with hi scar straight
By having draconian punishment they will not transgress in the begining

aws i couldnt give a monkies if the original mechanic welder alloy sheet folder built a car yesterday on the original jigs in the original shed the manufacturer built his 1970`s race cars in its still a FAKE REPLICA call it waht you like "continuation" car its NOT the original car with a line of history
Triggers broom can be traced to teh events a part was replaced it still carried the plate afixed to said tub connected to a wishbone uprights and raced at a certain international or club event by a said driver who then crashed and rebuilt his damaged car as required
THAT car i welcome with open arms to race against NOT the fake replica continuation car PLUS even 20 dd years ago we had folk making new B16 B19 cars to race in the new historic racing series using a plate with a number from a car that was crashed written off later scrapped
want me to recite cars chassis numbers? gladly point them out at race meetings in uk eec and usa

lets move on form this saga what aboit spec BDG todasY 300 BHP
PULEEEESE IN 1972 IT HAD 245ISH bhp IN 1990 I KNOW GUYS THAT HAD 2 LITRE BDG WITH 265 BHP AND THEY FEARED THE CHILDREN WOULD NOT SEE THEIR INHERITANCE
lets get real about spec on motors dampers springs pad & tyre compounds