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Old 31 Aug 2009, 22:29 (Ref:2532173)   #51
Al Weyman
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The one annoying thing I always get from this forum is that I always feel that those who compete in AppK (the supposedly top level) appear to regard those that don't as inferior or that we run 'Hot Rods' which are not true historic race cars.
I tend to agree Moose.


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At some point it is likely that the current top value and rare cars become museum pieces only and the core of weekend by weekend working cars simply evaporates as existing afficiandos become past interest and too little fresh blood joins in to fill the void. I think that was a point that driftwood made a few posts back.
I think you may be wrong on this analaysis. I think once a car is only useful as a musuem piece its value will be slashed and I tell you what brings me to this conclusion.

In my back yard under a tarpaulin I have a car that is one of 15 built, has been raced infront of thousands of people and millions on live TV, been driven by some of the most famous drivers from the 70/80's of all time including F1 drivers of the day and prehaps even Dale Earnhardt and yet is not currently worth me renovating. Why? Only one reason I can see that this car is not worth much more than the last one I see sold at $50,000 in 2007 is the simple fact that because of its spec (tubular spaceframe NASCAR style) it would have virtualy nowhere to race in historic motorsport. There is one of these in the Talladaga Musuem of Speed but how many musuems are there that want stuff like this or indeed any old race cars, no I think the value is in the cars that can still actively be raced like its predecessor the Mark Donague IROC Porsche advertised in this months Octane and they are probably asking so much its 'Price on application', are the ones worth the big money and if Historic Racing does fade away so will the value of these cars.
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Old 31 Aug 2009, 22:48 (Ref:2532185)   #52
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aws should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
lets move on from this saga then bang on about power from engines.. please!!
feel free to name chassis numbers but be sure to have a good lawyer first :-)
you seem to miss the point that i agree with you on cars using identity of another we disagree on continuation.. as a matter of interest what do you race driftwood
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Old 31 Aug 2009, 23:00 (Ref:2532190)   #53
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OK, I once owned a 64 Fastback Mustang with the hi output factory engine 4.7 litres 4 barrel Holly Tri-Y headers all standard with the factory performance package and I think gave something like 210 bhp. I don't think a 210bhp Apps K Mustang would get far today in a race do you? ;-)
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Old 31 Aug 2009, 23:08 (Ref:2532193)   #54
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but engine that are built today to appK are to appK so what is the problem if someone has found a way of getting more hp, as long as they conform to appk the thing you forget is that things have moved on fuel for one is far better than it was 20 years ago, understanding of valve timing, CR, piston wieght better dyno's rolling roads and so on thats where the power comes from not forgetting time and money, not just from bent engines.. well not all the time :-)
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Old 1 Sep 2009, 01:58 (Ref:2532246)   #55
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Originally Posted by Al Weyman View Post
I think you may be wrong on this analaysis. I think once a car is only useful as a musuem piece its value will be slashed and I tell you what brings me to this conclusion.
Al, I take your point but I was thinking more in terms of those few models that have, currently at least, some particular charisma for collectors. They may still take to the track, but rarely and more in show events rather than races, as time moves us on.

The 'workhorse' grid fillers may disappear especially if the potential for outings becomes limited should as active participants start to tend more towards 80s and 90s cars.

I think you are potentially very right about the valuations but then collecting anything, whether for use or storage, is a fickle thing with markets often on a state of flux. Classic/Historic cars have a somewhat volatile price history as I recall. Still, even buying a road car people will justify their decision to themselves as being the best value for money that meets their criteria and have figures to back up the argument - but only if they ignore running costs and allow nothing for unplanned repairs.

I would imagine most historic racers recohise the costs and accept the risk on the basis of the pleasure they get from participating whilst secretly hoping that somewhere along the line the value of what they have, if they start in the expensive desirable end of the market, will enhance enough that they can exit at some point getting as much back as they have paid out over the years.

Such provenance as they have to create the positive ROI (if the timing is right) is where driftwood's argument comes in and I have no problem with that excpet that the whole thing is difficult to police ESPECIALLY when trying to create a chronological record of a chassis/engine or even the specification changes when the car was in period when records at the time of its manufacture were incomplete. Perhaps intentionally so.

In a former life one of the tasks I undertook was to deliver and collect DFVs for the rebuild line at Cosworth. During the course of a GP season there is a good chance that all the components were replaced, probably including the block in the case of most engines. But for documentation purposes, notable customs documentation carnets, the number on the block was always the same. If you consider a chassis well, a tub may survive or be repaired but equally a re-tub could be given the old chassis number. In a season one could expect most suspension components to be replaced a number of times. Wheels and tyres don't count, obviously. Bodywork could get re-used providing it was not damaged of not beyong economic repair. Gearboxes were regularly swapped and rebuilt. About the only thing I can think of that might have continuity would be the roll over hoop - providing it was not replaced due to damage or engineering changes during the year. Provenance is a flexible concept which, to be honest, mostly requires the belief on its reality rather than proof - until such time as someone authorises it with a document of some sort. It's all a question of confidence even then.

So from the poiint of view of an owner with an investment angle in addition to racing - I agrre with driftwood, by and large. But there awill always be some fairly unique vehicles that are of huge interest to a very limited number of potential owners. Some of the vehicles will be everyday items, some will be that even if they should not be due to real historic interest, a few will attract the eyes of thse who like to move on expensive circles and so attract premium prices.


As a spectator and speaking from a race viewing perspective I don't really care (except in wonderment of course) about the value of the car being raced. T70s, genuine original or continuation, are all great sights and sounds to me providing they are reasonably representative of what they used to be. In general I would rather see the spectacle and hear the sounds than be too worried about how close the spec is to its original, especially if the differences mean that the car is more reliable over a race and a season making it more available to come out and play.

I suspect that the non-anorak (not intending any slight to those who might identify as being anoraks in this subject!) new recruits to the historic scene may feel the same way since modern racing seems to have no obvious equivalent for chassis history, etc. as I discussed in an earlier post.

Without attracting new interested individuals both the racing and the investments will either die or at least become a very specialized interest. Quite where the balance is between attracting the wealthy potential car owners for the investment angle and making it easier to fill grids that gather the 'others' for the racing and spectacle I don't know. No doubt we will find it, one way or another, as things evolve. Unless, as I mentioned earlier the entire concept moves almost exclusively to a 'private world' footing that largely excludes the spectator element.
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Old 1 Sep 2009, 05:52 (Ref:2532290)   #56
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Terence you are right that some folk have iffy cars and cos he is a past regular racer possibly with good period cars in collection/raced in their series many years has a larger todger/bigger bank account than most of us and a nice well known prep shop doing his cars its all right for him to run bent cars- isit buggery the rules are the rules if he turns up with bent car send him home humiliated
when he ha shad teh tantrum in his bedroom he can come back to race with hi scar straight
By having draconian punishment they will not transgress in the begining

aws i couldnt give a monkies if the original mechanic welder alloy sheet folder built a car yesterday on the original jigs in the original shed the manufacturer built his 1970`s race cars in its still a FAKE REPLICA call it waht you like "continuation" car its NOT the original car with a line of history
Triggers broom can be traced to teh events a part was replaced it still carried the plate afixed to said tub connected to a wishbone uprights and raced at a certain international or club event by a said driver who then crashed and rebuilt his damaged car as required
THAT car i welcome with open arms to race against NOT the fake replica continuation car PLUS even 20 dd years ago we had folk making new B16 B19 cars to race in the new historic racing series using a plate with a number from a car that was crashed written off later scrapped
want me to recite cars chassis numbers? gladly point them out at race meetings in uk eec and usa

lets move on form this saga what aboit spec BDG todasY 300 BHP
PULEEEESE IN 1972 IT HAD 245ISH bhp IN 1990 I KNOW GUYS THAT HAD 2 LITRE BDG WITH 265 BHP AND THEY FEARED THE CHILDREN WOULD NOT SEE THEIR INHERITANCE
lets get real about spec on motors dampers springs pad & tyre compounds

Totally agree! Draconian? dont think so,we all should be racing under the same set of rules regardless of personal wealth.However,this subject has been done to death in the past.
On the subject of Dampers,you know,those nice Alloy Housing one's-double adjustable ,lightweight versions that have been painted satin black so as not to be noticed. Not exactly period are they.Tyre compounds we are stuck with,we can only use what Dunlop/Avon produce.Engine developement is one of the questions asked somewhile ago untill it was made a major subject by Simon H.Things that came came from that were 'just how much further can this 'developement' go? You can only get a certain sized valve to fit a certain sized combustion chamber.All valve sized have been homologated in period,anything other than those sizes? its called cheating .
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Old 1 Sep 2009, 07:08 (Ref:2532303)   #57
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Impressed by the posts on here but we have had the continuation,fake,replica threads before plus the cheating bit.Went on for months.
The point that has not been discussed before to any extent is the date things become ready for Historic Racing.This also includes the problems preparing cars built after mid 90's due to their complexity and electrical parts.
Should a line be drawn at about 20/25 years?
The bit about old cars and modern generation is not always correct as can be seen by success of VSCC and to a certain extent the Edwardian cars.99% of Pre War cars are driven by drivers born long after the cars raced in period and they are different from modern cars.
The value of cars in museums depends on what cars are being talked about.I am sure if the Collier collection were sold they would raise much more than they cost when entering the museum
If a car took a gang of 20 people to look after in period it will take the same number today unless someone comes up with the formula to simplify the design.
As very few people watch Historic Motor Racing should the spectator have a minority vote and the entrants who own the cars decide the way forward?
When will the organisers have less meetings and an across the board set of rules?
Can Festivals have one organiser rather than several layers all of whom need to make a margin or should certain festivals be a showcase for the major race organisers as happened in the past two years at Silverstone?A departure from the old days of Coys .Monaco,Le Mans Classic and Goodwood are controlled by one organisation and they are the most successful events on the calender.
This lot to keep this rolling along before it vanishes down a V8,B,Cortina,Tin Top Cul de Sac!
Idea is a broad discussion not bits and pieces.The broad brush approach rather than detail.
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Old 1 Sep 2009, 07:50 (Ref:2532321)   #58
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the one organizor/sub contractor one is an interesting one and all I guess ties in with cut off's. Races are totally democratic in so much as the competitor will dictate its success.
I personally feel that late 70's early 80's will become a natural cut off for tin tops as it is difficult to get too passionate about a Sierra 500 etc and other series (sports racers and single seaters) due to the running costs. Euroboss covers 90's F1 already and Formula Renault etc are still being run in formula libre series.
The difficulty that Silverstone Classic has over Monaco, Goodwood and Le Mans is that it has no unique selling point so needs to rely on the support of the series - for that reason I believe it does need the layers, whether that is finacially viable is a different conversation and only time will tell. If I was the organizor I would try and make the infield sufficiently strong that the racing becomes more diluted as an income stream reducing reliance on it and therefore reducing negotiating power of the series...
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Old 1 Sep 2009, 07:51 (Ref:2532322)   #59
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fuel for one is far better than it was 20 years ago
Dunno about that! Cars like the early Rover V8's left the factory with very high compressions and had to be run on 5 star which was phased out and caused problems.

As far as where is an Historic cut off because of the electronics involved on modern machinery well if SR's for the series allowed they can be bypassed and back engineered onto traditional carbs as is already happening in some series. I have done as much on my 87 IROC-Z.

Talking about original cars or not years ago when I worked at Roger Nathans they were building the Astras and I used to go down to a boat yard to collect the wooden monoque. The rest of the car was fabricated in a tiny workshop from basically various diameters of steel tube, the uprights were bought in and were probably off something else and the fibreglass panels were moulded from pucks made in alloy by some very clever ex-Aston Martin guys and that was it. Now if that car caught light all you would have left would be the front and rear subframes and they would be twisted with th eheat the rest would be cinders so where would you go from there if you were to rebuild as the car would in essence have to be brand new and infact a continuation.

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as it is difficult to get too passionate about a Sierra 500 etc and other series
There are some guys racing in our Pre-93's and TTRS (pre-94) that would violently disagree there Simon, I do personally think stuff like Cossies and M3's are iconic and have a very big following for the historic driver of the future and now.
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Old 1 Sep 2009, 07:56 (Ref:2532326)   #60
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simon drabble should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridsimon drabble should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridsimon drabble should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
yet curiously the restored one continually touted by the dealers is rebuilt in a spec Roger cant recall... a very amusing man to have lunch with
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Old 1 Sep 2009, 08:09 (Ref:2532328)   #61
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BTW I wanted to make a point earlier when someone said that its the organising clubs reluctance to police the cars that causes the problems as they are run as a business and are pressured to ensure full grids.

I can only agree with this in part as the organisation I run with is run by 100% unpaid amatuers but we still have the pressures to fill grids and its not financial pressures as such but pressures from the MSA to pull the plug on championship status and pressure from the BARC to have sufficient starters to cover the track hire cost (which in turn becomes financial pressures).

Also is it so easy for an organiser to simply chuck a car off the grid? In my experience its a little more complex than that and I have been told unofficially even steps like sealing engines for later post race inspections on championship winners engines after the car has left the circuit will not hold water with the MSA. So what exactly are the clubs expected to do, I personally think it must be down to fellow competitors to self police but has also been my experience as chairman of an organising club for 11 years that competitors for what ever reason (throwing stones in their own glass houses prehaps or the damned cost of a protest or simply the fact no one wants to be seen as a grass) are very reluctant to do. I mean all the examples I have read on here over the years from the likes of Terry, Andy Bacon etc. alleging cheating has any of them ever actually put in an official protest?
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Old 1 Sep 2009, 08:14 (Ref:2532331)   #62
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the answer is for all series to run their races as invitational ones.... short term pain for long term gain
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Old 1 Sep 2009, 08:36 (Ref:2532340)   #63
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Crikey, I've only been away a couple of days, and this has really kicked off. It's difficult to accuse anyone of taking this thread off topic since JR's original post was pretty wide ranging. I have lots to say really, but it may have to wait. However, in the meantime:-

1) It is inevitable that some repetition of subjects is going to arise - eg cheating and enforcing regs, because until the issue is resolved, it'll keep arising.
2) I've come to the conclusion that I don't like the use of the word 'mafia' in this context because, apart from the connotations, it is clear that one poster's view of who 'our' mafia is, is different to another's. So who do we mean when we use the word, because, I sure as hell don't know. It's true and inevitable, that there are factions, with their own preferences in 'Historics', and I can't see why people are not allowed to discuss their preferences. If the particular subject is not an area of your 'interest', don't post.
3) When we are discussing particular events, I would like everybody involved in historic racing, in whatever capacity, whether it is driver, organiser, club official, marshal, owner, prepper, spectator, to contribute; yes even the drivers of Safety/Course cars, because, for me, it all adds flavour and info. about that particular event. We are documenting them in a way that more structured forms such as magazines and news/reporting websites cannot possibly emulate since they have word/space constraints that we don't have. As I have said before, I occasionally find it a bit soul destroying when I put on a whole sequence of posts covering an event without any response/input from anyone else. I am however, encouraged to see more and more photos from other posters; keep them and your comments coming.

I know that only addresses some of the issues but I think that it is enough from me, for now.
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Old 1 Sep 2009, 09:30 (Ref:2532358)   #64
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The whole idea of internet and forums, like this, is the free flow of information and thoughts about different issues.

I find that if a subject comes way of of line, or the atmosphere in discusions get too "tense", it is the persons that are responsible for the site that can react.

Otherwise I find that anything is "legal" to discuss within the perimeter of the forrum´s theme.

Let the discussions florish.
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Old 1 Sep 2009, 09:52 (Ref:2532370)   #65
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I find that if a subject comes way of of line, or the atmosphere in discusions get too "tense", it is the persons that are responsible for the site that can react.
Correct, and we do, of course have a set of rules - please see the FAQs. A couple to remember:-

1) Attack a post, constructively, but not the poster - there must be no personal remarks/abuse.

2) Don't say anything that might cause difficulties for the mods; they give their time for free, to try to keep this pleasant for all to use

3) Don't go off topic, although I tend not to get too concerned about this because in some of the discussions we have a change of direction sometimes flows naturally, but for idle chitchat, as Simon says, we have 'The lighter side'.

Please note that if you are unhappy with a post, you can always hit the 'warn' button which will engage our attention.
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Old 1 Sep 2009, 11:01 (Ref:2532397)   #66
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John don't worry about people not commenting on your excellent reports and contributions I am sure they are being read and well received, on the CTCRC forum where strangly enough I am top poster by a million miles and moderator I have put many posts on there trying to generate interest and replies and have had little response then I check and see how many people have viewed and it can be quite a lot so obviously people are reading but sometimes too shy to comment (unlike some of us on here :-) ) .
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Old 1 Sep 2009, 11:17 (Ref:2532410)   #67
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The bit about old cars and modern generation is not always correct as can be seen by success of VSCC and to a certain extent the Edwardian cars.99% of Pre War cars are driven by drivers born long after the cars raced in period and they are different from modern cars.
I think there will always be some people who take an interest in things outside their direct formative experienc, and a few who 'inherit' the interest from older family members and friends. But I suspect the numbers decline over time making reducing the level of activity.

I can't prove that. It might be an interesting subject for study.

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The value of cars in museums depends on what cars are being talked about.I am sure if the Collier collection were sold they would raise much more than they cost when entering the museum
That and to some extent scarcity sionce scarcity and uniqueness seem often to be correlated to percieved valuation. The world of art seems to rely on that form of value assessment at the top end.

Undoubtedly the use of a car, in historic circles that implies eligibility for events that people might wish to attend, adds to its base value bit that possibly has more effect for the lower value cars in terms of turnout and their owners' willingness to take the risks and cover the event costs on the basis that there is a chance that the underlying investment - the car - will at least hold its value. Maybe turn a profit providing one excludes running repairs and preparation.

Of course the same would be true without an value at all for the car at time of purchase and time of sale! Doesn't make for much of an over dinner conversation though.


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If a car took a gang of 20 people to look after in period it will take the same number today unless someone comes up with the formula to simplify the design.
If 20 skill sets are required then I agree. If 20 people were required simply to get the work done to refurbish between events and then run pit stops then I tend to disagree. Less work load should mean less man hours required. However the difference may not be proportionate.

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As very few people watch Historic Motor Racing should the spectator have a minority vote and the entrants who own the cars decide the way forward?
You mean they don't?

I imagine than some people become preparers/competitors having first been spectators, thus the appeal to spectators might be important for introducing nw blood, especially as the natural 'from my younger days' component fades away.


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Idea is a broad discussion not bits and pieces.The broad brush approach rather than detail.
Yep.

Whether there would be a benefit in havibng fewer events is interesting. It seems to me that in recent years there has been a stronger interest in historics (good for attracting and retaining new blood?) and that has been reflected in good grids and more meetings. This year not so good for well documented reasons but then again the 'modern' events seem also to have suffered, perhaps to a greater degree.

It might be interesting for organisers, if they feel the need, to stage a few races offering track time for the next 10 years of cars beyongd the current cut-offs, assuming there is enough consistency in the period to support a 10 year span.

Other than the BTCC type tin tops (can we call them tin-tops?) and presumably F3/ Formula Vauxhall for the open wheelers, I have to confess other possible club level categories don't spring to mind. I was not a regular circuit visitor during the 80s and 90s. Group C would be a possibility and is covered from time to time but realistically the costs involved if one wanted a regular events with a good grid are beyond the funding ability of the less wealthy competitors even if they had the desire to participate. Plus the cars are scattered around the world and now too many were created primarily for customer use as was the case with Marches, Lolas, Chevrons and so on in earlier times.

So what COULD be the basis for extended Historic racing into later eras, technical issues notwithstanding? Wiould the categories be interesting enough?
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Old 1 Sep 2009, 11:27 (Ref:2532419)   #68
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John don't worry about people not commenting on your excellent reports and contributions I am sure they are being read and well received, on the CTCRC forum where strangly enough I am top poster by a million miles and moderator I have put many posts on there trying to generate interest and replies and have had little response then I check and see how many people have viewed and it can be quite a lot so obviously people are reading but sometimes too shy to comment (unlike some of us on here :-) ) .
Ditto.

I enjoy all the reports but I think it would seem a littel gratuitous (perhaps even self promoting) to comment on every one. I could imagine that if all the readers posted to say thanks you would have a series of very long threads with sparse useful comment! Maybe a button to offer a vote of thanks would work? Is there something like that already available?

As we are discussing that, does the view count include any passing web trawling applications? I recall checking 'active' users on other forms in the past and finding among the anonymous 'users' that only one or two of several 'active' readers were real people and the other ten or twenty were robots. (OT but not worthy of a thread in the appropriate forum since the answer is likely to be simple.)
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Old 1 Sep 2009, 11:33 (Ref:2532424)   #69
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It might be interesting for organisers, if they feel the need, to stage a few races offering track time for the next 10 years of cars beyongd the current cut-offs, assuming there is enough consistency in the period to support a 10 year span.
We already are and have been doing so for some time and as you suggest is in approx 10 year steps. :-)
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Old 1 Sep 2009, 12:24 (Ref:2532444)   #70
john ruston
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john ruston has a real shot at the podium!john ruston has a real shot at the podium!john ruston has a real shot at the podium!john ruston has a real shot at the podium!
No Mafia so old lags?
Me,Peter M,Al,Terrance,Simon D and a few others
It was a term of endearment!

Back on topic for rest of you.
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Old 1 Sep 2009, 15:04 (Ref:2532535)   #71
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driftwood has a lot of promise if they can keep it on the circuit!
and who is the Don?
not sure if i am in da mafia but ive been called far worse!
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Old 1 Sep 2009, 16:27 (Ref:2532574)   #72
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terence should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridterence should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Problem facing the yoot of taday [oop's,letting my past show] is,will Astra's,Nova's and the like ever be looked on with moist eye's.?[apart from the memories of getting nicked in one] 'Our' historic cars were so widely used by parents,grand parents they became part of our lives when we would be 'helping' by handing spanners to dad/grandad,if you were interested enough,that help would have had the progression to doing the odd job on the car maybe even servicing it.The thing now is because of the complexity of modern multi valve,automatic advance/retard systems not to mention e.c.u's that can be readilly re-mapped without getting you hands dirty,the youngsters of today simply cannot do much in the way of hands on tuning without the required electronics knowledge.I think that it will only be a very small minority who are fortunate enough to be involved in the type of cars we talk about,that invariably will come from the parents or maybe even friends.
As for 'one organizer running one meeting',thats how it used to be done,without the advantage of our electronic helpers.
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Old 1 Sep 2009, 19:11 (Ref:2532667)   #73
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Al Weyman has a real shot at the podium!Al Weyman has a real shot at the podium!Al Weyman has a real shot at the podium!Al Weyman has a real shot at the podium!
I think you under estimate the resourcefulness of younger people, some young guy who races in our Pre-93's was showing me how he had bypassed the ecu controlling the Honda Civic Variable timing by patching in a toggle switch (he lost me!) and remember some big gains can be had on this modern kit without even touching the engine just the managment ECU infact there is a young guy racing in our Pre-93's with a virtually stock Vauxhall Astra and he is going very well and the guy with the Honda Civic was bloody quick as well and the engine on both these cars was untouched and ran faultlessly. The biggest threat maybe this governments silly scrappage scheme!
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Old 1 Sep 2009, 19:35 (Ref:2532689)   #74
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terence should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridterence should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Point taken Al,but that is only one person,we need a few more.My point is that cars of ten years or younger,could they ever be viewed as a future classic/historic?
Sorry but kids of today do not have the mechanical interest of thirty to forty years ago when most car owners had to fix their own car,usually they are more content sitting in front of a computer.This is shown by the lack of bright lads seeking a mechanical apprentiship,admittedly there are a few,but they are few and far between.
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Old 1 Sep 2009, 19:43 (Ref:2532698)   #75
Al Weyman
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Al Weyman has a real shot at the podium!Al Weyman has a real shot at the podium!Al Weyman has a real shot at the podium!Al Weyman has a real shot at the podium!
No that was two guys plus we have guys like young Ryan Gorman who looks so young he is nicknamed 'The Baby Faced Assassin' he races a BMW 325i (a future classic?) and last weekend was out in the ex-Jack Stanford BMW 2002 that his uncle has just bought and had a good run out and they all get their hands dirty, another young guy was pulling the head off a Pug 205 at Brands and does all his own work. We have other young guys out in Pre-93's as well that are all enjoying themselves so I am confident the continuation of historics maybe not as with respect you see them as I doubt the meetings you go to have series like Pre-93's and 94's but it proves there is a future just look at the amount of M3's, Cossies, Starions, Mazda's, Tomcats etc racing in these championships and series that will all be desirable in years to come.
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