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Old 8 Jan 2004, 09:15 (Ref:831301)   #1
Super Tourer
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Bernie - F1 will need to move out of Europe.

We have debated the F1 calendar long and oft on 10/10, with the undercurrent that F1 will be left to chase the tobacco dollar around the globe - seemingly wherever it is 'welcome' or governments intervene to effectively fund races.

In an interview with Max magazine Bernie offers his opinion. http://www.pitpass.com/news2/news.cfm?newsid=8290

"We will have to cancel some of the European races sooner or later," he told German magazine Max. "Our sponsors want us in growing markets, and Europe isn't a growing market."

He goes on to add "As I see it, Europe will be part of the third world in 10 years," he added, a statement he has made several times in the past, "while Asia and America will be dominating the world. We must be established there."

As we know what Bernie E thinks is what happens, so it's likely the calendar will continue to add venues outside of Europe, with many races in the Euro Zone being dropped.

Much of this can be blamed on tobacco advertising, or rather many F1 teams inability to wean themselves off it financially. Whilst some countries will turn a 'blind eye' to Tobacco advertising legislation, granting F1 an exception, most European country's are politically sensitive to granting exceptions, with neither the will or resources to make up the shortfall themselves.

It's been alleged that Canada (from whatever means) is having to 'compensate' F1 to the tune of a rumoured $2M per team, in order to keep the race on the calendar, without tobacco branding appearing on the cars.

Yet again F1 enters a new dawn, despite the fact that nearly 80 country's have signed up to the WHO tobacco advertising ban - including some of the 'new' entrants onto the F1 calendar.

Come 2006, (the date for the voluntary F1 tobacco advertising ban) how many tobacco companies will vacate F1 I wonder, bearing in mind most teams (William's apart)inability to find significant other sponsors, able to part with those sort of budgets?
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Old 8 Jan 2004, 09:41 (Ref:831314)   #2
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climb should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridclimb should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
This speech itself is a complete nonsense IMO.
Sponsors are not, I guess, interested at (some thousands of) people who attend the race on the track, but at those (dozens of millions) who watch it on TV.
And they are global, regardless the place where races are held.
On the contrary, a race held on a very traditional track (Silverstone, for instance, or Monza) is much more attracting worldwide.
I mean, Chinese fans will certainly prefer a Silverstone Gp than Bahrain.
Arabian fans will prefer Silverstone to China etc.
On the whole, I think that such a speech, is basicly an attempt to save the toibaco advertising via blackmailing the EU countries.

Last edited by climb; 8 Jan 2004 at 09:42.
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Old 8 Jan 2004, 10:08 (Ref:831344)   #3
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Tobacco opening up China

http://www.grandprix.com/ns/ns12333.html

'The Chinese tobacco giant Hongta has just begun producing West-branded cigarettes in China, as part of a deal with the Imperial Tobacco Group'

'Marlboro remains the biggest foreign company active in China, a key market for the tobacco companies in the future and thus an important target for F1.'

I guess this adds to Bernie's point about moving races out of Europe - due to the 'needs' of sponsors....

Last edited by Super Tourer; 8 Jan 2004 at 10:09.
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Old 8 Jan 2004, 11:41 (Ref:831417)   #4
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Just a small point. How old will BE be in 10 years and will he still be at the reins of F1? I doubt it somehow.
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Old 8 Jan 2004, 12:02 (Ref:831439)   #5
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I am afriad Bernies comments about the EU becoming a third world state are ringing truer and truer in general outside F1.

With the EU ramming political and religious correctness down everyones throats, forcing ludicrous working standards, not taxing the out sourcing of work to cheap Asia, soon Asia will be the cash cow and we will be on the slide to a poor "nation" if you look at Europe as a nation.

Anything Bernie wants to do to promote F1 in Europe is being phased out due to everything having to be "correct" no fag advertising, no booze advertising, the next thing you know grid girls will be called "Grid People" EU has lost is common scense and is forcing too much equality and less freedom of speech and choice.

If I was Bernie I'd keep a few key EU races, and jet off to Asisa where Europe is plowing money into instead of its on people, and go to the USA where you can still strike up a deal without the EU humanitry rights groups sticking their nose in.
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Old 8 Jan 2004, 12:39 (Ref:831469)   #6
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Most people watch the races on television and wouldn't know one track from another if you held a gun to their heads. They just tune in to watch the racing. Bernie and Co. have said repeatedly that they don't care if anyone shows up at the track at all; all they want is the eyeballs on the TV sets.

When the tug of war was going on about the Montreal GP, it was suggested, half jokingly, that since the general attitude was the terrified parents would not want their babies exposed to actual race cars with tobacco branding, but would allow them to watch the same cars on television, why not hold the race but refuse to let anyone in to watch it live -- just broadcast it? Then babies would be protected and Montreal would still get the money from visitors.

If we could just get back to personal responsibility and stop trying to make the world safe for unsupervised toddlers, all these problems would vanish.
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Old 8 Jan 2004, 13:05 (Ref:831493)   #7
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thats the spirit Liz,

Car speed limits around parts of the area I live are dropping to 20 - 15 MPH, why ? because it is residentual and a kid could step out in front of the car. Why spend the money educating kids to NOT step out in front of cars (I know this is harsh) but the whole world cannot simpley stop everything to project "the future of the planet"
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Old 8 Jan 2004, 13:48 (Ref:831537)   #8
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I don't think its the team's inability to wean themselves of toabcco money, its their inability to locate a sponsor willing to come up with a monetary package that would equal the gross national product of a medium sized country. Formula 1 is going to kill itself by it pricing itself out of the market.

The teams are spending more and more money every year. The FIA is getting larger and larger sanctioning fees every year. And during all of this, the racing has not really improved. Its pale shadow of its former self. The cost saving rules implemented for this year will not change the status quo, it won't make it any cheaper to race in F1. It will just allow the teams with money to spend it elsewhere.

I cannot imagine being a team owner like Eddie Jordan or Peter Sauber spending millions on top of millions, fighting tooth and nail to get minor sponsors that may or may not pay, all to run for 6th place if they are very lucky. Especially when there are racing series out there they could easily be competitve in with one third the budget. In my opinion, they think too highly of their participation in F1.
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Old 8 Jan 2004, 14:00 (Ref:831559)   #9
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Though supervised my toddler loves going racing but I draw the line at her smoking
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Old 8 Jan 2004, 15:20 (Ref:831652)   #10
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I don't care as long as Spa stays on the calendar.
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Old 8 Jan 2004, 23:39 (Ref:832147)   #11
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If the economic or political climate doesn't stay peachy, Spa will be history as fast as any other race. The quality of the track is about as important as teh quality of the hotdogs being served in the stands as far as the promoters are concerned.

Also, I think this has a lot less to do with tobacco advertising than most F1 fans may think...

There is definately some truth to what Bernie says actually... there is definately a trend towards moving business to asia for cheaper labour and more relaxed laws. It's huge in high-tech right now, and I'm sure that's not all. It's not just manufacturing anymore - but R&D. It's creating a startup atmosphere in asia, which is helping to drive their new and budding economy. I think it will eventually create a much stronger asian economy and who knows about North America and Europe.

It no longer matters where your employees are located, so locate them where it's cheapest and the laws are most favourable. Compared to Europe and North America, most countries in asia are very very friendly to businesses with few if any labour laws, few restrictions and governments that are willing to do ANYTHING to get major North American and European businesses to setup shop, or if they already have, to expand... And of course, with the businesses goes the money... and the sponsors.

I have no doubt that F1 could have several races in asia - with 100,000, 200,000, heck maybe even 3 or 400,000 people at some races. There is absolutely no correlation between how much tradition is in a race track and the ratings the race gets. And the F1 fans around the world will always have their eyes glued to their sets - whether the race is at Silverstone or Bahrain, so what's to complain about? (at least from Bernie's point of view)

That said, I think Stephen Green has a good point too... when there's a change at the top, who knows what we'll get; however, don't assume that the replacement will be any more sympathetic.
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Old 8 Jan 2004, 23:49 (Ref:832160)   #12
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I can't see the problem with unsupervised toddlers and F1, most of them seem to be driven by unsupervised toddlers anyway!
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Old 9 Jan 2004, 00:52 (Ref:832191)   #13
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I agree that Formula 1, to be considered the real World Championship, needs to expand beyond Europe moreso than it has at the present. However, I disagree with Bernie's reasoning that Europe will be "third-world" within a decade. It would take an economic disaster of unprecidented proportions for the entire continent to fall apart like that. Also, while Europe's population is not expanding at a rapid pace, it is still stable, which is more than what you can say for many of the Asian and South American countries whose population is growing so fast that it cannot sustain itself properly. In addition to that, Japan is going to be "third-world" just as soon, if not sooner, as Europe will be, as an entire generation of Japanese are forgoing starting families altogether to get ahead in the business world, consequently leaving behind no one to pick up the load. South Korea's in the same shape. Asia's economy in it's present state revolves around Japan, so unless a new Asian power rises in the next twenty years or so, if Japan goes down, all of Asia goes down.

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Old 9 Jan 2004, 08:08 (Ref:832403)   #14
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It's being so happy that keeps us all going isn't it....sheeeesh
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Old 9 Jan 2004, 08:49 (Ref:832423)   #15
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QUOTE]We will have to cancel some of the European races sooner or later[/QUOTE]

Do you think as we have rejected the Euro we can claim to be British & not Europeans?
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Old 9 Jan 2004, 11:30 (Ref:832543)   #16
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Quote:
Originally posted by PenelopePitstop

Do you think as we have rejected the Euro we can claim to be British & not Europeans?
I prefer to call myself English, as opposed to British OR European
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Old 9 Jan 2004, 11:36 (Ref:832547)   #17
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Quote:
Originally posted by PenelopePitstop
QUOTE]We will have to cancel some of the European races sooner or later


Do you think as we have rejected the Euro we can claim to be British & not Europeans?
[/QUOTE]

I'm not sure we have rejected it - I believe Mr Blair is still 'thinking about it' - in anycase, I don't remember being asked !
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Old 9 Jan 2004, 12:09 (Ref:832564)   #18
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Since Canada's unofficiaL second language is now Mandarin Chinese, do we count as Asia now?

Jay's right, it's a whole new world now and nobody cares where the business is done as long as it's "cost effective" (cheap) and the people running the place have a relatively free hand. Why should F1 be any different?

I also agree with whoever said that the cars are now being driven by unsupervised toddlers, except for McLaren, where the toddlers are in fact strictly supervised.
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Old 9 Jan 2004, 12:40 (Ref:832590)   #19
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IMVHO, Bernie should be shot on sight.
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Old 9 Jan 2004, 14:33 (Ref:832693)   #20
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If Bernie thinks he can blow off Europe, and head to such "hot" spots as Bahrain, India, and China, and be successful, it will lead to F1's demise.

Every sport needs to have a home, and for F1 its Europe, and England specifically. Thats where your drivers come from, and your fan base is. If you start heading off to these third world countries, the teams will eventually have to put on inferior drivers from these countries to keep governments and sponsors happy. Europeans will quickly lose interest when that happens, and all you'll be left wth are poorly attended races that nobody cares about.

That situation has happened here in the US with CART. Its an American based series, that neglected the American fan, went international, and now has no American drivers left. No American drivers=No American fans. For F1, no European drivers=no European fans. Now CART is out of business, and nobody in this country cares. The same could happen to F1.

I don't think teams like Ferrari, Williams, and Jaguar, want to spend hundreds of millions of dollars to be seen in countries where their cars aren't even sold!

Leave Europe, Bernie? At your own peril...
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Old 9 Jan 2004, 15:49 (Ref:832755)   #21
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A different thought... Does F1 need Europe at all? If the big markets are in asia, and the European economy has been depleted, would those that run the sport care whether or not F1 is big in Europe?

Although, I think as long as there are two or three races in Europe, the F1 fans will continue to follow the sport like the zealots they are - regardless of where the races are. Most F1 fans around the world have never been to a Grand Prix, and probably never will - yet they'll still tune in every Sunday. So does it really matter where hte race is held?

CART was a completely different business - relying much more heavily on the success of its individual events, with low ratings (even at the height of CART, ratings were quite low compared to other TV shows). CART's market was North America, where as F1's is the entire world. For example, F1 has millions of fans in Africa and Asia with only two races in asia last year. I don't see why F1 couldn't have millions of fans in Europe with only 2 or 3 races there...
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Old 9 Jan 2004, 16:23 (Ref:832786)   #22
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"F1 has millions of fans in Africa and Asia with only two races in asia last year. I don't see why F1 couldn't have millions of fans in Europe with only 2 or 3 races there..."

Most people in Africa are verry happy with 2 pieces of bread + a glass of milk each day. Now I don't see how the average european will put up with that..
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Old 9 Jan 2004, 16:27 (Ref:832795)   #23
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We'll come back and check up on you in a couple of years.
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Old 9 Jan 2004, 16:31 (Ref:832799)   #24
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Bernie move out of Europe - F1 stays! all he is interested in is making more money - Greeeeeeeeeeed
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Old 9 Jan 2004, 17:04 (Ref:832836)   #25
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GP Racer,

What a 'spot on' post.

Jay - I try to get to two or three GP's a year and have visited most of the European tracks, so I for one would be very fed up, if F1 only had a few races per year in Europe.

If you have ever been to a European race, (or any F1 race) you would see the fantastic time the fans have, before, during and after a race, so I disagree with your point about it not mattering where a race is held. Many nationalites attend, get on well with each other and most important of all 'Enjoy' their sport - live and 'in ya face'.

European/American/Australian/Far Eastern fans, can afford to go to the races, I can't see Bernie dropping the ticket price in Africa(or where-ever,)to £5 for a three day pass - can you?

I will join ASCll Man in his VHO - Bernie should be shot.
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