[WEC] Toyota LMP1 Discussion

[gustavobamba]

Originally Posted by TF110

Ask Autosport, who most likely posed the question!

From back in the prologue, Toyota was only 4kmh down on Porsche's top speed. They were also one of the first to do a 1:39. I dont know if Toyota is keeping their cards close. Apparently they made a very low drag car that wouldnt work so good at Spa. But Anthony also said its a package thats designed just for LM. Those two things give me confidence they should be a lot more competitive. I think every car from the current 3 will be under 3:17 or 3:16. I hope Nissan is there in the sub 3:20's.

Nissan sub 3:20´s?!?!?!?!?

I don´t think so, i think they will go 3:25 at the best but… let´s hope i´m wrong

Imagine 4 brands laping under 3:20´s UUUAAAUUUU!!!!

[hcl123]

Originally Posted by Articus

The Toyota still goes faster down the straights than the Audi. That's the only thing that matters. Despite the dramatic crucifying in this thread, I'm sure we'll all be eating out words or something to that effect.

I think we all have been underestimating how easy it is to look extremely bad. It could be one big thing or many small things to create big problems. For Toyota the aero package looks to have issues because the drivers are understeering out of the track boundaries at every opportunity. Give the Le Mans aero a chance. Toyota will sort the aero out.

Well compared with last year 2 first races Toyota was absurdly faster on straights than Audi, but then for LM it reverted slightly in favor of Audi (in spite of Toyota's rear movable wing)

Watch circa 18 min in this video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lvinG73iSA4

A lot of things can change from one race to the other, its a matter of tuning in tuning up...

Audi engine is still the most powerful of the 3 top contenders in the regular race usage band ( on qualifying the more fuel allocation of petrol allows then to push more and revert this), though the differences in engine power are rater small the hybrid power is not ( at least 50% more for petrol) penalizing a little Audi overall, but that engine has a huge amount of torque which allows then to run very well with a relative very high downforce bias and take the corner speed crown (a tradeoff)... you can't compare the tradeoff of Audi for the 2 first races for corner speed in detriment of straight speed, and extrapolate for all other races

Like last year i expect Audi to be much faster on straights than it has been so far... last year they not only toke the fast lap but also the straight speed record of the race ( other posters pointed this)...

Of course Toyota will also try to tune in tune up properly... so it will be very interesting to watch... but it seems Audi already came up with 2 versions of the tub, it has made a lot of investments already, perhaps they can surprise with a 3th iteration based on the Spa low drag version, now low drag low downforce... wonder if Toyota will be willing to commit the same kind of investments, becasue with at least 6 direct competitors ( 3 Audis and 3 Porsches) doubt very much Toyota can win on a *budget* tuning ( unless a crazy damn once in a lifetime luck)...

[tyronnezx]

Originally Posted by gustavobamba

TOYOTA are really in position to Win Le mans this year

Mind games or just PR stuff, toyota are in the position that Audi was last year the underdog…

I don´t know why but…. they will blown us away with their LM package

Mr. Rob Leupen is putting the pressure on Audi and Porsche side… and he want them to fight each other to let Toyota do their game

Bit this is just a guess

I hope everyone here isnt hoping that being an underdog when you're this far off the pace is a good thing. last year Audi was a fraction off the pace, but reliable. This Year they arte fast and reliable against a Toyota that is phonemically slow.

[tyronnezx]

Originally Posted by gustavobamba

TOYOTA are really in position to Win Le mans this year

Mind games or just PR stuff, toyota are in the position that Audi was last year the underdog…

I don´t know why but…. they will blown us away with their LM package

Mr. Rob Leupen is putting the pressure on Audi and Porsche side… and he want them to fight each other to let Toyota do their game

Bit this is just a guess

I hope everyone here isnt hoping that being an underdog when you're this far off the pace is a good thing. last year Audi was a fraction off the pace, but reliable. This Year they arte fast and reliable against a Toyota that is phonemically slow.

[hcl123]

Originally Posted by MyNameIsNigel

Indeed.

budget tuning...

Wonder how Nissan will behave with their all about straights design... but rookies at LM never had much luck...

So the favorite to me is Porsche due to the incredible straight speed they have demonstrated, that is, if on the 'reliability' side they can withstand the 24 hours long Audi assault... Toyota can't complain now about the rules, because then FIA/ACO would have to penalize petrol... they would be better asking for more money, there is still time for a lot of changes.

[TF110]

Originally Posted by tyronnezx

I hope everyone here isnt hoping that being an underdog when you're this far off the pace is a good thing. last year Audi was a fraction off the pace, but reliable. This Year they arte fast and reliable against a Toyota that is phonemically slow.

Wrong. First they were more off pace last year than Toyota is this year. Toyota #8 (Davidson & co) did a best of 2:01.327. Toyota #7 did a 2:02.089. Audi's LM package? The #3 car did a best of 2:03.383. Thats over 2 seconds in race trim, their high d/f car was closer. This year Audi did a best of 1:57.996 and 1:58.077 vs Toyotas 1:59.528. So 1.5 seconds back with their high d/f car vs Audi's low drag car. Like for like, the high d/f Audi did a 1:59.797 this year. How do you quantify being reliable? Both cars left in 2014 changed turbo's. In this year's races they have shown issues on both packages. Porsche and Toyota aren't immune either. I think if Audi can turn around and keep relatively good pace with their LM package last year, Toyota can do it as well. Plus theyre actually closer than is being credited.

[MyNameIsNigel]

More worrying than Toyota's apparent performance deficit is the current shortage of spare monocoques. These are long lead items and Toyota are apparently under great time pressure to produce those in sufficient number for the Big Race. I do hope that their upcoming test at Spa on May 19th-20th and the Le Mans Test Day will run smoothly for them.

[Artur]

Originally Posted by TF110

I think every car from the current 3 will be under 3:17 or 3:16. I hope Nissan is there in the sub 3:20's.

The 3 big ones surely will be way faster than that. Last year, Nakajima's pole was 1.21.7 and, iirc, it was wet on the latter parts of qualifying when the times would normally go further down.

The improvement is between 4 to 5s on 1.40-1.55 min tracks. At Le Sarthe, this will mean around 7,5s of improvement, methinks.

If it stays dry all through qualifying, I think Porsche will break into the 3.13

[Chuliandred]

Originally Posted by MyNameIsNigel

More worrying than Toyota's apparent performance deficit is the current shortage of spare monocoques. These are long lead items and Toyota are apparently under great time pressure to produce those in sufficient number for the Big Race. I do hope that their upcoming test at Spa on May 19th-20th and the Le Mans Test Day will run smoothly for them.

Short question which is maybe a little bit offtopic but I started to wonder of the last year why the monocoques of LMP1s are so often damaged compared to F1. I can only remember a few times over the last ~20 years that monocoque damage was a topic there. Are they just so oversupplied that they don't care and don't make it public, are they physical stronger, or are there other factors which make it easier to damage a lmp1 monocoque?


@Topic: I think it is a little bit unfair how harsh the comments against Toyota often are. In Spa they were ~5kmh faster than last year (when you look at Laps without slipstream). They were ~2 seconds faster in race pace (roughly estimated by looking on the numbers, not crunching them in detail). That is quite an impressive improvement. Their cars are fast!
The problem for them is that the VAGbros are absolut aliens this year. If you look at their improvements you could think they stepped up from lmp2... Hopefully the LeMans spec Toyota is closer to them and we really have a battle of three beasts in LeMans.
Nevertheless, i think that we will see a great race of attrition. I wouldn't be surprised if we see a LMP2 team on the podium this year. They have to run so close to the limits this year that we will see failures, mistakes, and other racedestroying problems.

[Spyderman]

I don't often comment on Toyota or Audi, however , I too think that Toyota's evolution is quite good when one considers that they are racing with the same chassis, motor , hybrid system and in the same hybrid class as last year. Their evolution is I suppose, what is to be expected given that set of parameters. The main problem is that both Porsche and Audi changed the parameters with which they were playing the game. Both went up in hybrid class, and both have essentially brand new cars.
Having Porsche achieved the maximum hybrid class that is currently allowed, I strongly suspect that Porsche's evolution next year will proportionally look very similar to Toyota's evolution from last year to this year.
The cars are just at different stages of their life cycle.

[Damian Baldi]

Originally Posted by Spyderman

I don't often comment on Toyota or Audi, however , I too think that Toyota's evolution is quite good when one considers that they are racing with the same chassis, motor , hybrid system and in the same hybrid class as last year. Their evolution is I suppose, what is to be expected given that set of parameters. The main problem is that both Porsche and Audi changed the parameters with which they were playing the game. Both went up in hybrid class, and both have essentially brand new cars.
Having Porsche achieved the maximum hybrid class that is currently allowed, I strongly suspect that Porsche's evolution next year will proportionally look very similar to Toyota's evolution from last year to this year.
The cars are just at different stages of their life cycle.

I think Toyota is bidding to consistency and reliability

[carbon_titanium]

Originally Posted by Spyderman

I don't often comment on Toyota or Audi, however , I too think that Toyota's evolution is quite good when one considers that they are racing with the same chassis, motor , hybrid system and in the same hybrid class as last year. Their evolution is I suppose, what is to be expected given that set of parameters. The main problem is that both Porsche and Audi changed the parameters with which they were playing the game. Both went up in hybrid class, and both have essentially brand new cars.
Having Porsche achieved the maximum hybrid class that is currently allowed, I strongly suspect that Porsche's evolution next year will proportionally look very similar to Toyota's evolution from last year to this year.
The cars are just at different stages of their life cycle.

very good point!! and toyota should switch to batteries next year if am I not wrong. Anyway as shown by last specs lifespan 2011-2013, the best improvement jump is between first and second year; so surely in 2016 will be very unlikely to see cars being able to run 4 seconds faster than previous season.

[sssssssss]

pretty sure the aco will slow all of them down next year to at least what they were in 2014, if not even slower.

[hcl123]

Originally Posted by Artur

The 3 big ones surely will be way faster than that. Last year, Nakajima's pole was 1.21.7 and, iirc, it was wet on the latter parts of qualifying when the times would normally go further down.

The improvement is between 4 to 5s on 1.40-1.55 min tracks. At Le Sarthe, this will mean around 7,5s of improvement, methinks.

If it stays dry all through qualifying, I think Porsche will break into the 3.13

Linear extrapolations is the mother of all f..k ups lol

I don't think that much, something like 3.13 perhaps would mean 380Kmh (~235mph)or more in the straights, and the ability to fly low on the Porsche curves and Indianapolis/Arnage... the problem being the needed downforce to be able to do this last part will damage straight speed seriously(and vice versa) ...

If someone breaks into the 3.17 in qualifying will already be astonishing ( 2014 cars were not that slow).... normal race pace can be around 3,21 3.22 from 3,25 3.26

[hcl123]

Originally Posted by Chuliandred

@Topic: I think it is a little bit unfair how harsh the comments against Toyota often are. In Spa they were ~5kmh faster than last year (when you look at Laps without slipstream). They were ~2 seconds faster in race pace (roughly estimated by looking on the numbers, not crunching them in detail). That is quite an impressive improvement. Their cars are fast!
The problem for them is that the VAGbros are absolut aliens this year. If you look at their improvements you could think they stepped up from lmp2... Hopefully the LeMans spec Toyota is closer to them and we really have a battle of three beasts in LeMans.
Nevertheless, i think that we will see a great race of attrition. I wouldn't be surprised if we see a LMP2 team on the podium this year. They have to run so close to the limits this year that we will see failures, mistakes, and other racedestroying problems.

The problem is that Porsche and Audi improved 4 to 5 sec... and its not harsh criticism is a facing of reality. To improve that much in 1 year means not only a better car but fine tuning for *any* particular circuit... which means a big team a lot of infrastructures and a big expense.

The solution for Toyota... or comes with a real *superior* car... or it has to have that same kind of big expense. We have seen some suggestions in interviews that the mother house don't seem too bend to embarque in this *money war* (and its not only the question of 3 cars for LM)... perhaps they thought they had that superior car... the awakening can be rude... and now the big question is will they spend to compete or will they leave after 2016!?..

[hcl123]

Originally Posted by carbon_titanium

very good point!! and toyota should switch to batteries next year if am I not wrong. Anyway as shown by last specs lifespan 2011-2013, the best improvement jump is between first and second year; so surely in 2016 will be very unlikely to see cars being able to run 4 seconds faster than previous season.

Or the other way round... it can switch to a much higher energy density capacitor [there are already commercial capacitor offerings with more than double the energy density of the numbers suggested for Toyota of around 10 KWh/kg (and hybrid capacitor techs with more than lead acid batteries >90KWh/kg)]... meaning lighter packs with enough energy holding for the 8MJ.

The big question i pose, is not the energy storage, but if 'regenerative braking' ALONE is enough for the 8MJ... that is, is not a problem of storage but of harvesting (Porsche has double harvesting method, braking and exhaust alternator)... perhaps has hinted may be enough for a couple of the more favorable circuits, but perhaps not enough for the others.

And so its not a small problem solved by batteries... it would imply perhaps not only a profound redesign of the hybrid system, but perhaps of the all car with a real *innovative engine* if they stay on NA tech.

[ just to remind that to have *SUPERIOR* release strategies you have to harvest in general more than 8MJ per lap (usually more but also suspend harvesting for moments to not overregen)... its not like brake/harvest & release linearly, some brake zones can't have enough for what is more suitable for the next corresponding straight section (so you have to have a good reserve) ]

[TF110]

At Le Mans, braking energy is sufficient enough for 6mj at least. From the two straights then mulsanne to indy is probably enough to recover more than half that total. Didnt seem like Toyota had any trouble harvesting all the total last year, at least at Le Mans. But obviously they improved on that. Interesting that the LM package this year is very unique, reiterated again by Pascal Vasselon. I guess its closer to what Nissan views as its approach. Making the car suit Le Mans and the other races are a secondary concern.

[MyNameIsNigel]

Fitting a 2015 nose on a 2014 monocoque ?

[tyronnezx]

Originally Posted by MyNameIsNigel

Fitting a 2015 nose on a 2014 monocoque ?

I sure as hell hope not. No idea what they are upto there but that looks like the high DF aero

[MyNameIsNigel]

Originally Posted by tyronnezx

I sure as hell hope not. No idea what they are upto there but that looks like the high DF aero

Indeed, that looks like the high-downforce aero.

Considering that Toyota are supposed to run a "radical" (or maybe not so "radical"... we shall see) LM-spec car at LM, what was the purpose of the "low-downforce" car that was tested at Paul Ricard ?

Originally Posted by MyNameIsNigel

Thanks Hiro. Juste took the liberty to extract and post the direct links to the comparison shots coming from this article:

[Gingers4Justice]

Originally Posted by MyNameIsNigel

Indeed, that looks like the high-downforce aero.

Considering that Toyota are supposed to run a "radical" (or maybe not so "radical"... we shall see) LM-spec car at LM, what was the purpose of the "low-downforce" car that was tested at Paul Ricard ?

Are we sure that they didn't run the Ricard-style LD car at Spa? Shouldn't we call it the NSLD car in any instance? (Not So Low Drag)....

The difference between the two specs we saw at Spa isn't immediately obvious. Maybe they ran a version of the NSLD package at Spa. Or maybe the NSLD package at Spa didn't throw up the kind of numbers they were expecting, and they decided to develop a VMLD package? (Very Much Low Drag).

Or maybe I'm just talking my usual nonsense.

Whether I am or not, from what Toyota are saying, we can expect that the LM-spec car will be more obviously different from a standard TS040 than whatever we saw at Paul Ricard.

EDIT: This observation is by no means conclusive in any way, but the opening you highlight on the #2 in the above pictures very much seems to be the same opening we see on the TS040s at Spa. I need to look more carefully at the other features, but this makes me believe that this NSLD package was intended for Spa and possible Fuji, and not for Le Mans.



Also, by examining the way the splitter follows the fender, it also would seem from this picture that the cars were running the Ricard LD package. Note also the curved dive plane which you can also see in one of MyNameIsNigel's pictures.

[Artur]

Originally Posted by hcl123

Linear extrapolations is the mother of all f..k ups lol

I don't think that much, something like 3.13 perhaps would mean 380Kmh (~235mph)or more in the straights, and the ability to fly low on the Porsche curves and Indianapolis/Arnage... the problem being the needed downforce to be able to do this last part will damage straight speed seriously(and vice versa) ...

If someone breaks into the 3.17 in qualifying will already be astonishing ( 2014 cars were not that slow).... normal race pace can be around 3,21 3.22 from 3,25 3.26

In this case, any kind of explapolation wouldn't be too acurate because it relies a lot on each track's layout and how that, particularly, impacts the major points of improvement from the cars. For example, if a car have the same power/torque but majorly improves it's L/D so that the drag roughly stays the same while downforce greatly increases, it will reduce several seconds of laptime on a track like Barcelona or Silverstone but in a track like Monza, that extra downforce will have very little impact on laptime. Conversely, if the aero stays roughly the same while power/torque greatly improves, you'll see big improvements on a track like Monza but much smaller one in Barcelona.

I think Spa's layout is not that much different from Le Sarthe. They, basically, have long straights, some medium/fast corners and a couple of hairpins/slow corners.

I think some engineer from Toyota already said that they expect to lap under 3.20 on race pace.

From 3.21 to 3.13, it's only a 4% difference. Because they have been that much faster on previous tracks, we can assume they are cornering quite faster this year, it can't be all down to power increase(Toyota improved a lot too and they remained on the 6MJ, even if they managed to improve power with what they got, it wouldn't be by much). If they improved speed, on average of all corners, by 4%, that will require even less than 4% increase on top speed to reach 4% improvement on laptime because drag drains quite a lot of the power/torque advantage you have on the lower speed acceleration zones(like getting out of Arnage or Mulsanne corner). Btw, 4% increase in top speed would mean 346kmh over the 333kmh of last year(Nakajima's top speed on qualifying). What I'm pretty confident is that you will need nowhere near 380kmh(of speed trap) to lap on 3.13

Anyway, let's wait and see to which time they get closer to, but I think your 3.17 guess is quite conservative

[hcl123]

Originally Posted by TF110

At Le Mans, braking energy is sufficient enough for 6mj at least. From the two straights then mulsanne to indy is probably enough to recover more than half that total. Didnt seem like Toyota had any trouble harvesting all the total last year, at least at Le Mans. But obviously they improved on that. Interesting that the LM package this year is very unique, reiterated again by Pascal Vasselon. I guess its closer to what Nissan views as its approach. Making the car suit Le Mans and the other races are a secondary concern.

Yes i suppose is like that.

I suppose harvesting at brake from the font axle is good enough for 4 MJ... there is a transfer of weight upon braking into front, it can be very efficient harvesting from there, at least Audi doesn't seem to have problems with that.

Harvesting from the rear axle is much more tricky... there is the question of less efficiency at braking but also the engine torque to count on that also has an additional braking effect upon braking... and you can't overbrake the engine and lower too much the reving, because in the sequent acceleration phase the work on the engine will have to be harder... and you lose not only efficiency but also part of the benefice of having more energy to release(and lose fuel allocation if you try). So its not a small problem for Toyota and 8 MJ.

For Nissan the premisses will be very identical... they have a direct no round trip losing energy harvesting method, but they don't seem to have the ability to harvest from the rear axle(no MGU in the rear axle or link with this rear axle)(only Toyota has a rear axle MGU, or a gearbox MGU more precisely)... its a all front design ... so taking Audi in comparison, with the more efficient harvesting method perhaps Nissan is good enough for 6MJ, but don't count on more, they probably are already having lots of problems pushing for 6 MJ...

[hcl123]

Originally Posted by Artur

From 3.21 to 3.13, it's only a 4% difference. Because they have been that much faster on previous tracks, we can assume they are cornering quite faster this year...

The problem with that linearity is that for a lot of the track distance the speed with be quite identical... there is so much you can do for a lot of circuit parts, and this even counting with *general* higher top speed and higher cornering speed... so from 3.21 to 3.13 is much more than 4% where it matters.

Then there is the catch22 of fine tuning for some particularities, you can try to be blazing fast on the straights compared to 2014... but risk being slower than 2014 upon the more twisty parts...

[MyNameIsNigel]

Originally Posted by Gingers4Justice

Are we sure that they didn't run the Ricard-style LD car at Spa? Shouldn't we call it the NSLD car in any instance? (Not So Low Drag)....

The difference between the two specs we saw at Spa isn't immediately obvious. Maybe they ran a version of the NSLD package at Spa. Or maybe the NSLD package at Spa didn't throw up the kind of numbers they were expecting, and they decided to develop a VMLD package? (Very Much Low Drag).

Or maybe I'm just talking my usual nonsense.

Whether I am or not, from what Toyota are saying, we can expect that the LM-spec car will be more obviously different from a standard TS040 than whatever we saw at Paul Ricard.

EDIT: This observation is by no means conclusive in any way, but the opening you highlight on the #2 in the above pictures very much seems to be the same opening we see on the TS040s at Spa. I need to look more carefully at the other features, but this makes me believe that this NSLD package was intended for Spa and possible Fuji, and not for Le Mans.



Also, by examining the way the splitter follows the fender, it also would seem from this picture that the cars were running the Ricard LD package. Note also the curved dive plane which you can also see in one of MyNameIsNigel's pictures.

Unless I am mistaken, the only spec that was raced by Toyota at Spa was the HD spec; the same one that was raced at Silvertsone. What's the purpose of the LD or NSLD spec that was tested at Paul Ricard ? Have Toyota changed their mind and been working on a more extreme LD package in an attempt to catch up ?