Schuey race wins total - 75 not out

[DavidStHubbins]

http://www.planet-f1.com/drivers/ran...l/pf1?cat=Wins

Maybe I'm the only one but hasn't Schuey's race wins total just shot up to a ridiculous number? Not so long ago he beat Prost's total.

Looking at the above link shows just how many he's won compared to everyone else. Soon he'll have won as many as Prost and Senna combined

For the record, so far he has won more GP's than the combined total of the following champions or champion contenders:

Jean Alesi, Juan Pablo Montoya, Eddie Irvine, Keke Rosberg (WC), Phil Hill (WC), Mike Hawthorn (WC), Gilles Villeneuve, John Surtees (WC), Jochen Rindt (WC), Jacques Villeneuve (WC), Stirling Moss, Jody Scheckter (WC), and Kimi Raikkonen....

=74 race wins combined, 1 less than Michael Schumacher.

I'm starting to agree that he should retire.

[Andrew2001]

Well I'm starting to agree that he should try winning a championship without the assistance of another driver season long.
He has never won a championship on his own, there has always been a driver on the grid driving the same car working for HIS results. Senna never had that luxury, nor did Prost, and if Schu does indeed beat Prost and SEnna combined, regardless that its a different era, it will be the 2nd biggest joke in the history of F1.

[Gt_R]

Haha..a delluded guy.

Quote me the years that he "never won a championship on his own", or was assisted "season long" as you claimed?

Maybe somebody else raced his car for him!!

another poor attempt by rival fans to taint his achievement and ruin another thread. If we take away the number of wins his teammate "gave" him, and add in the number of wins he "gave" his teammate, i think we'd be approaching 80.

[freud]

I agree with both David and Andrew..

I realize that TGF is as good as he is, my only worry is that the all-time historical records of f1 are being so easily broken by him. I really feel for Prost, Senna, Stewart and other f1 legends who had to battle not only the grid but their teammates as well and a victory mwant so much more. Even one victory was savored and was 'worth' something. Can you imagine (compared with Schum.) how much more did Prost had to fight for each of his 51 victories? His teammates were not lapdogs but legends like Senna, Lauda, Mansell...

Again, I dont care whose fault is it. Some can say that TGF is only happily taking what Luca and Co. are willing to give him... others will blame the FIA. I really think that its an irony that all-time f1 records (50 years or so of sweat and blood) are being blown away so easily.. May be Bernie, Luca, Todt or Max Mosely does not realize what an asset these f1 records are, what does it take to achieve them. There are drivers who have died on track while trying to add just one GP victory to their names.

[climb]

Freud David, etc: in many other threads has been underlined that the greatness of dirvers like Senna, Fangio, Prost, Villeneuve etc is not related to numbers.
This problem doesn't exist; numbers are made for statistics, but mean nothing about the real evaluation of a driver.
Thus let's allow MS to establish all the records of this world, it will never shade the big names of the past.

[fog_shadow]

I realize that TGF is as good as he is, my only worry is that the all-time historical records of f1 are being so easily broken by him.

records are meant to be broken. one day Shumachers records will also be broken. at least i know, that those records are broken by a driver who has had the guts, determination, mental fortitude and sheer talant to achieve what Michael has achieved thus far.

how many drivers will join a dud team at the peak of their careers and still achieve what Michael has achieved? how many have succeeded inspite of all the odds, as Michael has done.

Ferrari are not a philanthropic organization as most people would like to believe. they don't pay Schumacher an outrageous amount of money because he has a big chin or has great hair. he is the best, he does an amazing job, never gives up even when faced with the impossible, and is rewarded as such.

we all know what happened to another driver who tried to emulate Schumachers achievements and see where he is now.

[freud]

Climb.. I am afraid MS's records ARE shading the big names already and thrashing each and every record in the books (except for may be the pole position).

I just wish Ferrari top brass had the moral courage to realize and change this. Patrick Head opined the same same time ago.


Fog, I am afraid you arent getting to the logic behind the thread. We all know MS is great. He's got good hair and chin and yes he drives well. But so did Prost and Senna and Stewart and Mansell and Villeneuve and 100s of others who have drove before him. Point again is that if MS had achieved all that he has with a teammate like a JV or a JPM or a Kimi or an Alonso or a Mika or even a DC, I would've applauded him. You and I well know what treatment Rubens get at Ferrari. Have you forgotten his famous words after Austria 2002 that Ross Brawn hardly even spoke to him during his first season with Ferrari (year 2000)??

[Gt_R]

Here we are talking about how numbers and records don't mean a thing, but bothered when the records are broken.

The thing that i judge MS isn't by what numbers he acheived, but like climb say how having more numbers won't diminsh the greats of the pasts, even if MS hadn't achieve half the figures he did have now, he is still unmistakenly one of the best drivers ever to grace F1.

And even if we are to argue with numbers, sure, having no WDCs/wins doesn't make you a dummy, winning one WDC may be a fluke (no names)...but winning 6 with 2 different teams speaded over a decade? No doubt about the ability of the driver.

Team orders...i won't deny at times MS got the benefit of team orders, but to say that his achievements are made by his teammates, his WDC a gift and such are exaggerations. Even in 2002, the 4 points he gained from the "switch" proved not to make any difference. MS didn't win WDCs because of the points he was "given"

And people who claim that MS didn't have to fight...just because he trashed his teammate doesn't mean he doesn't need to fight. Ferrari didn't give Rubens a worse car, didn't sabotage Ruben's races,nor issue orders restricting his chance at WDC unless it is obviously clear who is the better driver. If Rubens had by mid-season 40points ahead of MS by merit, Ferrari would have do what they've done for MS in the past for Rubens.

Bar a couple of races, the others are well earned and well deserved and speaks much of MS's abilities.

[DavidStHubbins]

I didn't start this thread to bin other drivers, nor to hail Michael either. I just wanted to point out the mammoth statistics he is creating.

[freud]

Gt_R, I just have one question for all MS fans...

Imagine an experienced Kimi Raikonnen (he's double WC) driving for Ferrari in 2000, 2001, 2002 and 2003 instead of MS. All other rules apply (ie Rubens lapdog status, plus Ferrari management)... Dont you think he'll do the same as MS?? Remember MS was a double WC already in 2000, not a novice.

[Gt_R]

Quote:"JV or a JPM or a Kimi or an Alonso or a Mika or even a DC"

Please...don't kid ourselves..IF Ferrari does hire Mika/DC to partner MS, and MS wins again, there'd be stories of how Ferrari chose inferior teammates..

If Ferrari hired JV/Kimi and MS wins..it'd be team orders/lousier cars..

If JPM's hired, anything goes wrong or even if nothing goes wrong and MS wins, JPM will call for sabotage and unfair treatment.

Point is, no matter what, the critics would build up new stories to say. And when Ferrari first signed Rubens, RB is one of the best drivers available and had done a good year for a struggling Stewart, consistently quick. And he did a good job for Ferrari, and is still a more sensible options than some of those you listed.

[freud]

RB might be good, his 'contract' isnt.. I'm really not kidding myself

[Gt_R]

"struggling" stewart isn't really fair..but at least, not a top line team.

But the thing is freud, your situation doesn't happen...if i was to put Webber and Alonso in Prost and Senna's shoes at Mclaren....they are going to replicate the achievements too.. and what are we going to achieve with such imaginery situations?

Give Kimi the car MS had in 2002, i had little doubt Kimi could win the WDC too. BUT did Kimi build the Ferrari up to where it was in 2002? No. And if Kimi had what Ferrari gave MS in 1996, would Kimi had won 3 races? Doubt not. And if Ferrari had given JPM last year's F2003, would JPM win it like MS? Again, no...because the Williams had a better package over the whole season and JPM didn't win. And maybe DC could have won in 2002 if he drives for Ferrari, but what would be the margin of victory? No where near MS, and i'd be surprised if he wins with more than 2 race in hand.

And i stress again. The policy of Ferrari is not to donate to Michael's personal bank account. If Rubens had put on a fairly good fight and been performing better than MS, he'd be given his shot at WDC. But when did Ferrari tell a driver who's ahead of MS in the championship standings to ease up and assist MS?

[Gt_R]

Yeah..conveniently his "contract".

Since you believe RB's "his famous words", then why didn't you believe when more than once, RB came out and clarified that there is no contract which forbids him from winning a WDC nor to restrict his job to a "lapdog of MS"?


*expecting another conveniently weaved reason*

[Glen]

It is disingenuous in the extreme to take the fact that occassional team orders mean that all his races are gifted to him - it is in fact an extremely race occurence. Rubens just can't get near Schumacher this year, simple as that and nthing to do with these contracts that all you priviledged guys have apparently seen.

[freud]

Yes, I agree, hypothesizing is not the way.

But again, as Hubbins puts it above, its time for MS to retire.. Sooner the better!

[DavidStHubbins]

He should be banned for being too good.

[fog_shadow]

heck, if Kimi decides to join Minardi and struggle for the first 3-4 years but later get's all the pies, i'd say he deserved it as well.

nobody will offer you sucess on a silver platter. and certainly no one offered it to MS. he deserves every bit of sucess that he gets today. he's earned it.

i'm not disputing that Senna, prost et al were great racers who worked hard for their success. the point is, they had their day in the sun, the records are the effect and not the cause. records will be set and will be broken. JPM, KR, and perhaps most likely Alonso are all welcome to break Schumi's records. doing so will not take anything away from what Michael has acheived, just as Prost, Senna, Fangio, Gilles will always be remembered as legands. not for the numbers on a book, but for what they did.

as i said earlier, it's a cause-effect sort of thing. you appear to be unable to distiguish between the 2.

shadow

[Gt_R]

i agree with you fog.........but really winning for Minardi!??!?! I think it's beyond MS/Senna/Prost..let alone Kimi!

[climb]

Climb.. I am afraid MS's records ARE shading the big names already and thrashing each and every record in the books (except for may be the pole position).

Freud, just make me an exasmple of a MS's record that made the world downgrade Gilles Villeneuve, Senna, or Prost.

[jj2728]

Originally posted by freud
I agree with both David and Andrew..

I realize that TGF is as good as he is, my only worry is that the all-time historical records of f1 are being so easily broken by him. I really feel for Prost, Senna, Stewart and other f1 legends who had to battle not only the grid but their teammates as well and a victory mwant so much more. Even one victory was savored and was 'worth' something. Can you imagine (compared with Schum.) how much more did Prost had to fight for each of his 51 victories? His teammates were not lapdogs but legends like Senna, Lauda, Mansell...

Again, I dont care whose fault is it. Some can say that TGF is only happily taking what Luca and Co. are willing to give him... others will blame the FIA. I really think that its an irony that all-time f1 records (50 years or so of sweat and blood) are being blown away so easily.. May be Bernie, Luca, Todt or Max Mosely does not realize what an asset these f1 records are, what does it take to achieve them. There are drivers who have died on track while trying to add just one GP victory to their names.

yeah, i feel for these guys too...such a tough life they had having to battle for grand prix victories.........yo uthink ms does'nt savor each and every victory?.....his enthusiam shows alot more than messers prost, senna, et als., ever did on the podium.....50 years of records?....records are made to be broken, simple as that....and what in the world does the fact that drivers have died trying to add another victory to their names have to do with anything at all?....

[Glen]

If he's braking the records so "easily" how come someone doesn't stop him? Should be "easy".

Perhaps you might have to consider, freud, that he's making it look easy - which quite a different thing.

[dcp2685]

Opinion on the MS records....yes his records are WAY above those of the rest. It's time for him to retire.

Opinion on the MS records. I think it does shade over what the other legends have done in the past. MS is a great driver he's proven this time and time again. When he's running in 3rd and the 2 ppl in front of him pit, then he cranks the next 5 fastest laps of the race to come out 1st in the race. That's amazing. Very boring and non race like but it's still an amazing testiment to his skill in driving a car. No one can deny that.

But i do agree w/ the fact that his teammate (Rubens, Eddie) work for his results. If there were a JPM, or MW sitting next to him as a teammate not wanting to play second fiddle, i think we would have seen different results. But then again, MS and Ferrari would never have let that happen.

As for his results, has he earned them...of course. After all he won all those races, however i would also say 15-20% of them did involve a lot of help from his teammate for him to score the win. And having the best equipment on the grid for 5 straight years doesn't hurt.

For that reason is why i'm a Willams Fan and not necessarily a driver of any particular type fan. I want to see the best 2 drivers on the grid in the same team duke it out over and over again w/out crashing the cars in a real race situation. This is why i want to see a Webber/JV combo next year. I don't want to see Ralf come off second hold up the pack while JPM drives off into the sunset. That's just not racing IMO.

[Mattracer]

Originally posted by Andrew2001
Well I'm starting to agree that he should try winning a championship without the assistance of another driver season long.
He has never won a championship on his own, there has always been a driver on the grid driving the same car working for HIS results. Senna never had that luxury, nor did Prost, and if Schu does indeed beat Prost and SEnna combined, regardless that its a different era, it will be the 2nd biggest joke in the history of F1.

What was the 1st biggest joke?

[fog_shadow]

dcp2685,
you do have a point there. even as a MS fan, i got to admit that it does stink a bit if RB holds the rest of the field back and allows MS to drive off into the distance.

however it was at Malaysia 99 that Michael did the same for his then team-mate and you got to admit, having the much better McLaren behind him driven by Mika Hakkinen none the less, Michael did a ****ing brilliant job.

i suppose such tactics could be justified if your car is not as good as the opposition. and to be honest, when Ferrari was not dominnant, these tactics may have come into play, but i've yet to see this happen when Ferrari were the dominant team as in 2002 and 2004.

imo, barring Williams, most if not all other teams especially those at the top of the field use team orders to the benefit of one driver and the detriment of the other driver.