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Old 19 Jun 2017, 15:55 (Ref:3745229)   #166
V8 Fireworks
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the traditional Holden vs Ford fight, which has now been pretty much extinguished with the exit of both manufacturers from the local scene. Sure they will have imported models seeking to fulfill the role of the previous Commodore and Falcon models but without a V8 engine it won't be the same.
But Ford Australia do not want to race in Supercars, as far as they are concerned it gives a bogan image that they want to distance themselves from.

Holden and Nissan support are not guaranteed either, the latter seems to be based on personal relationships than hard results and worthwhile ROI.

Whereas Audi and Mercedes go out of their way to associate themselves with the techy, sophisticated image of TCR, GT3 and Formula 1.
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Old 19 Jun 2017, 15:59 (Ref:3745231)   #167
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Their cheap Hyundai/Kia/Toyota is solely a means to commute to Uni and back!
If you hadn't noticed Kia and Hyundai are now full of Germans who are charged with churning out new performance models and running motorsport programs.

While under Toyoda-san's leadership toyota are becoming more sporty and gettng involved in more motorsports. For the first time, even the Prius has been given IRS and apparently it now has fairly sporty handling a bit like a mazda or alfa!
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Old 19 Jun 2017, 18:55 (Ref:3745280)   #168
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I've seen some fantastic racing with Citroen 2CVs. If the racing is good, the overall speed doesn't matter.

Other than they'd take a long time to come round again at Bathurst...
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Old 22 Jun 2017, 03:05 (Ref:3745898)   #169
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So... Let's just use GT3 cars, they have heaps of downforce and are by far the fastest option?
Except... They are becoming eye-wateringly expensive to buy and repair, and there is no broad-based manufacturer support, like you could _claim_ TCR has.
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Old 22 Jun 2017, 16:20 (Ref:3746075)   #170
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The way I see it, long term, the first question to answer is what do VASC want, and what do the teams that are currently invested in VASC want? First and foremost, do they want to continue in the current mode of building cars up from scratch, or do they want to buy customer cars? What rules and control parts could VASC set in place if going down the build-our-own path

If they do want to build their own, that pretty much rules out "pure" GT3 and "pure" TCR, as both utilise customer cars manufactured almost entirely in Europe. In my opinion GT3/GT4 should not be in the VASC picture anyway as the evolution has always been down the touring car path. Let sports/GT cars continue in their own right.

Also, if building our own, Oz Touring Cars via VASC have pretty much been independent of the rest of the world since group A finished. So why not continue down that path? 2 doors or 4 doors should not be an issue - it should be more about interior space and/or wheelbase. Set those limitations, and the vehicles then define themselves. Manufacturer involvement? I don't know; did MARC require approval from Ford and Mazda before going down their path? Power and engine type? That's a big issue, with various paths that could be followed. Then there's control parts - reduce them, or leave as they are? BoP, parity, or neither?

It's not going to be an easy jigsaw to put together.
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Old 23 Jun 2017, 03:28 (Ref:3746171)   #171
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It's not going to be an easy jigsaw to put together.
I agree with your summary RZM.

The important other factor though is that they have to look over their shoulder at what the fan base wants. And that in particular should include the fans that are NOT watching now, both at the track and on screens.

Certainly OZ fans have always liked top have a distinctively local content in engineering as being either dominant, or at least challenging the imports. Does that apply to the young people who are currently ignoring Motor Racing.
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Old 23 Jun 2017, 03:58 (Ref:3746173)   #172
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Also, if building our own, Oz Touring Cars via VASC have pretty much been independent of the rest of the world since group A finished. So why not continue down that path? 2 doors or 4 doors should not be an issue - it should be more about interior space and/or wheelbase. Set those limitations, and the vehicles then define themselves. Manufacturer involvement? I don't know; did MARC require approval from Ford and Mazda before going down their path? Power and engine type? That's a big issue, with various paths that could be followed. Then there's control parts - reduce them, or leave as they are? BoP, parity, or neither?
MARC has proven you can make something look good and race fast, and still have some showroom look to it, but we're still talking a $250k car to build, right?

Maintenance costs are lower, but if we want a sustainable series without million dollar manufacturer involvement, we need to think about how to put on the same sort of show without the huge spend.
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Old 23 Jun 2017, 04:39 (Ref:3746174)   #173
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MARC has proven you can make something look good and race fast, and still have some showroom look to it, but we're still talking a $250k car to build, right?

Maintenance costs are lower, but if we want a sustainable series without million dollar manufacturer involvement, we need to think about how to put on the same sort of show without the huge spend.
TA2

http://ta2racingaustralia.com/
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Old 23 Jun 2017, 05:19 (Ref:3746175)   #174
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TA2
In the style of the successful South American series, still not sure I'm a fan.

I mean they are great aggressive looking cars but even more "silhouette" than current Supercars.
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Old 23 Jun 2017, 05:27 (Ref:3746176)   #175
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In the style of the successful South American series, still not sure I'm a fan.

I mean they are great aggressive looking cars but even more "silhouette" than current Supercars.
You would think the current supercars format as a mustang would be easier to achieve
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Old 23 Jun 2017, 08:16 (Ref:3746190)   #176
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V8 Fireworks should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
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MARC has proven you can make something look good and race fast, and still have some showroom look to it, but we're still talking a $250k car to build, right?
IMO can't build a fully fledged racing car for much less than $100k-150k at a minimum, it's just a question of the hours involved to build it as well as the components. Not if you are paying for the labour like a professional racing team, unlike the club racers doing over a few beers with their mates.

$10k for a professional grade suspension
$5+k for brakes including calipers and rotors
$10k for a brand new production crate engine, $100k for a supercars spec racing engine
$2+k for an aftermarket engine control unit
$20k for a racing sequential gearbox
$5k for a mild steel roll cage, more for the Supercars style chrome-moly
$1k just for the carbon race seat!
Hydraulic jacking system, CNC machined uprights, fabricated control arms etc
Plus all the labour hours, shop space, equipment, overheads

It all adds up, I think? :/

Even a simple thing like springs: I think Supercars team used to use the Australian-made King racing coilover springs, $150/pair, these days at the top level they probably use the Swift springs (which are lighter and have better tolerances to their nominal spring rate) which are $400-500/pair for springs IIRC. And obviously a supercar team will carry all the spring rates from 3, 4, 5, - 17, 18, 19, 20 kg/mm... That's a lot of pairs of springs!

Even TCRs are $150k turn-key, and they are using basic stock block production engines.

A question of build quality too... If you look at Brocky's 1993 Advantage Racing VP it's pretty rudimentary, whereas this 2011 Walkinshaw Commodore is beautifully turned out: https://duttongarage.com/Holden-VE-C...Supercar~17768 It's all lots of expensive labour hours!

Last edited by V8 Fireworks; 23 Jun 2017 at 08:24.
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Old 23 Jun 2017, 08:28 (Ref:3746196)   #177
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You would think the current supercars format as a mustang would be easier to achieve
Ford aren't interested in Supercars, so what's this about a Mustang?

It would be focus on the actual participants manufacturers: Holden and Nissan, and design some regulations to meet their requirements. V6 twin-turbo Captiva vs X-Trail? SUVs are where the market is at after all, why hang on to sedans, which are an unpopular segment.
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Old 23 Jun 2017, 08:40 (Ref:3746199)   #178
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You would think the current supercars format as a mustang would be easier to achieve
But TA2 could be used for a series that requires no manufacturer support.
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Old 23 Jun 2017, 08:43 (Ref:3746201)   #179
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Ford aren't interested in Supercars, so what's this about a Mustang?

It would be focus on the actual participants manufacturers: Holden and Nissan, and design some regulations to meet their requirements. V6 twin-turbo Captiva vs X-Trail? SUVs are where the market is at after all, why hang on to sedans, which are an unpopular segment.
if you followed the conversation you would see we referring to a TA2 discusion, which included camaros, challengers and mustangs.

If Ford are interested or not may be irrelevant. besides no one knows if they are interested. Maybe they are just looking for the right arrangment which they have not been offered yet
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Old 23 Jun 2017, 09:19 (Ref:3746206)   #180
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if you followed the conversation you would see we referring to a TA2 discusion, which included camaros, challengers and mustangs.
Indeed, I am watching the American Trans-Am series seems to have three classes.

Trans-Am 1: Heavily sculpted Vipers, Corvettes, "Mustangs" with much more aerodynamic shape, & also Porsche cup cars for some reason (!?)

Trans-Am 2: The Camaros, Challengers and Mustangs with somewhat production shaped fibre-glass bodies, they seem to be more standardised.

Trans-Am 3: Production based muscle cars

Certainly it could be a good model for Supercars to follow. The Trans-Am 2 class seems to be the closest and most fun. The random mix of cars in Trans-Am 1 seems a bit strange. Trans-Am 3 is probably a bit like improved production or GT4.
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