Future Grands Prix?

[ScotsBrutesFan]

The biggest issue with the track running without the infield areas is there is very little real breaking, and so energy would have to be harvested on the straights.

[wnut]

Originally Posted by ScotsBrutesFan

The biggest issue with the track running without the infield areas is there is very little real breaking, and so energy would have to be harvested on the straights.

Don't you think we should stop engineering every circuit to suit the cars, this would provide a different challenge for everyone?

[Sodemo]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

That would ruin the Salotto corner. Leave it as it is, it needs to be challenging.

Forgive me, but when has F1 been concerned of late at providing "challenging" race tracks? You can bet your last dollar that every corner will have tarmac paved run off.

[S griffin]

It's a price to pay to see one of the best circuit layouts return

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by wnut

Don't you think we should stop engineering every circuit to suit the cars, this would provide a different challenge for everyone?

In that case I want WEC at Knockhill. It'd be a challenge.

[ScotsBrutesFan]

Originally Posted by wnut

Don't you think we should stop engineering every circuit to suit the cars, this would provide a different challenge for everyone?

The point I was making is that if F1 are going to new countries or returning to old ones. I want to see good racing.

Like it or not, the current breed of cars do have energy harvesting, and the best way of doing that is under braking. In addition the best/only way to overtake in F1 is under braking.

Cars running at "top speed less harvesting" down straights isn't good racing.

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by ScotsBrutesFan

The point I was making is that if F1 are going to new countries or returning to old ones. I want to see good racing.

Like it or not, the current breed of cars do have energy harvesting, and the best way of doing that is under braking. In addition the best/only way to overtake in F1 is under braking.

Cars running at "top speed less harvesting" down straights isn't good racing.

Indeed. It certainly would not be more challenging for the driver to run around harvesting down the straights. But it wouldn't be any fun for us.

[ScotsBrutesFan]

Originally Posted by S griffin

It's a price to pay to see one of the best circuit layouts return

Why was one of the best layouts? It gave the drivers of the day in the cars of the day a real challenge. Driving it well got results, several drivers doing it well gave great racing.

I don't believe that layout 12 would give the drivers of today, in today's car the same challenge.

Tracks have to evolve, don't get me wrong, I hate to see classic corners getting torn up, but if you look at Curva Grande at Monza. It was a long hard challenging right hander where the car had to be balanced on the throttle. As F1 cars have changed, it has become a right hand down a bit on the wheel "straight" taken at full throttle.

[Sodemo]

Originally Posted by ScotsBrutesFan

Why was one of the best layouts? It gave the drivers of the day in the cars of the day a real challenge. Driving it well got results, several drivers doing it well gave great racing.

I don't believe that layout 12 would give the drivers of today, in today's car the same challenge.

Tracks have to evolve, don't get me wrong, I hate to see classic corners getting torn up, but if you look at Curva Grande at Monza. It was a long hard challenging right hander where the car had to be balanced on the throttle. As F1 cars have changed, it has become a right hand down a bit on the wheel "straight" taken at full throttle.

More than F1 cars race at Monza and other tracks. That same corner is still a challenge in other cars today. I hate seeing tracks torn up for essentially one weekend of the year when the F1 circus is in town and then the other 362 days they have to live with the mess of a layout forced on them by Charlie Whiting.

[S griffin]

That's true, drivers are increasingly rabbiting on about corners no longer being corners, Eau Rouge for example you had to have skill to take it flat, now it's easy for everyone

[wnut]

Originally Posted by Sodemo

More than F1 cars race at Monza and other tracks. That same corner is still a challenge in other cars today. I hate seeing tracks torn up for essentially one weekend of the year when the F1 circus is in town and then the other 362 days they have to live with the mess of a layout forced on them by Charlie Whiting.

Back to get the aero off the cars and all these problems magically disappear!

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by Sodemo

Forgive me, but when has F1 been concerned of late at providing "challenging" race tracks? You can bet your last dollar that every corner will have tarmac paved run off.

I live in hope and though neither is preferable, tarmac run off would be better than sticking a chicane in the middle of the Salotto corner.

[wnut]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

I live in hope and though neither is preferable, tarmac run off would be better than sticking a chicane in the middle of the Salotto corner.

Decent gravel trap would be better than either tar or a chicane.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by wnut

Decent gravel trap would be better than either tar or a chicane.

I thought about a gravel trap. Do they race bikes on that circuit layout?

[wnut]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

I thought about a gravel trap. Do they race bikes on that circuit layout?

I am not sure where this business of the bikes needing paved run offs comes from BJ, but here is Catalunya which is the ultimate purpose made bike circuit, an all the run offs are gravel.

Phillip Island is the same!

I don't think that huge paved run offs are a motorcycle requirement (Bernie Red Herring?), am I missing something?

[wnut]

The dog leg on the top right of the picture was added after Salom's fatal crash, caused by no retardation across the only paved run off and slamming into the barrier.

[S griffin]

And there was no point to that tarmac run off, as the F1 men don't use that corner

[AoB Special Stage]

Originally Posted by S griffin

And there was no point to that tarmac run off, as the F1 men don't use that corner

Well, they used to.

[Kempi]

Wasn't the chicane introduced to improve overtaking options for F1 on the front straight, the thinking being that the two sweeping right handers were too fast for cars to follow each other close enough?

Before the chicane F1 was using the corner with the paved run-off.

[hondafan37]

Formula 1 commercial chief Sean Bratches says there have been around 40 expressions of interest from potential grand prix venues since Liberty Media took over earlier this year.
Bratches doesn’t expect to see more permanent Tilke-style tracks built in deserts, on swamps, or on farmland: “In terms of the next tranche of where we’re going, I don’t think you’re going to have too many more purpose-built tracks built.
“We’re going to have an apportionment between city tracks, heritage tracks, and purpose-built. The next objective is to put our shoulders behind more city races. For the reasons I stated, we think that’s a very attractive proposition from our perspective.”
Bratches says that grouping races by regions will be of benefit, especially in terms of transport costs. However, he also believes that it will be good for fans.
"Right now we’re jumping all over the globe with no thoughtful cadence. In an ideal world, and forget the order, but you’d have kind of the first third of the races in Europe, the second third in the Americas, and the last tranche in Asia.
“What that does is allow you create efficiencies in terms of travelling this circus. When we go through Europe, there are 350 18-wheelers that take it around, and north of 10 747s that fly us around the world. So creating efficiencies is I think a big opportunity.
“The other opportunity from a fan standpoint is being able to say to a fan [that] for the next two or three months you’re going to have to get up early to watch the grands prix, and for the next two months it’s midday, and [then] night. So for a navigation of fans to drive audience and viewership, I think it’s very interesting."

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/n...atches-950905/

[S griffin]

25 is too much for the teams. It's ok for NASCAR as they are in one country

[Purist]

The two main examples being thrown about of corners not being challenging anymore aren't very convincing. Curva Grande at Monza was eased, making it faster, when they went in to add run-off on the outside. Eau Rouge was also re-profiled, and even if it hadn't been, the track has been widened since the new course came about in 1979-80, which in effect, eased basically all of the corners. Not to mention, Eau Rouge/Raidillon has an ocean of paved run-off that the drivers aren't shy about abusing, which makes those turns easier still.

I think the effects of aero often get overblown in road racing, while the impact of the accordion effect is all but forgotten. Maybe those last two turns at Catalunya were a bit tough for following, but the problem is, that chicane is so slow, you get a HUGE expansion in the physical gap between the cars as they accelarate out of there and on around to the pit straight. So, I feel confident in saying that at that track, you're farther back, at a lower speed, than you would have been without the chicane. Furthermore, having a bigger physical gap at a lower speed significantly cuts down on the effectiveness of the slipstream.

NO, outbraking is NOT the ONLY way to overtake. The run from La Source to Les Combes provides a great illustration of all THREE main methods. Those are, getting a better exit out of the corner at the start of the run, slipstreaming, AND THEN, outbraking.

[S griffin]

Eau Rouge was only widened because they didn't bother grassing over where it used to go before 1983. This might have something to do with the fact it was a public road at the time. But it wasn't easily flat even when it was wide. After they put in the temporary chicane, they then narrowed the corner with increased run off. Now it's easily flat, especially with the tarmac runoff

[Purist]

From what I'm able to gather online and through print sources, Eau Rouge/Raidillon was eased for 1995, compared to 1993. Obviously, they had that chicane in there as an emergency measure in 1994.

[Purist]

As for Buenos Aires specifically, I imagine they'd use layout 15-S, unless they change or use a shorter pit entry. If they use the existing, long pit entry road, they'll want to slow the cars down more than Tobogan does to aid cars pulling off to the pits, like the WEC has done at the Nurburgring with their switch to the tighter iteration of the chicane there.

I'm not sure if the modern cars will take the first part of Salotto flat-out; I expect that they will do on the second part, but that loop brings something else into the equation. How much do you trim the car out? There's enough of the lap made up by long straights in that case to where taking drag off may be quite beneficial for overtaking using the slipstream.

And for those concerned, Ascari will provide a very effective braking zone for overtaking, as well as a recharge zone. Assuming they use #15, Turn 7 will be a notable braking zone also, though I don't expect it to be a terribly good overtaking zone.

Now, IF they use #12, Parga should definitely also be an effective outbraking and recharging zone.

In addition, I wonder if Siervo won't be flat-out, in which case, getting the line right will be absolutely essential, or else you're a sitting duck on the run up to Salotto.

It's too bad the Horquilla hairpin is no longer available. Then, they could use Tobogan, have a new pit entry after the hairpin, and improve overtaking potential at the end of the lap as well as possibly into Siervo.