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Old 24 Apr 2006, 19:15 (Ref:1594021)   #26
R59
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R59 should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridR59 should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
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Originally Posted by BigDaddy
It seems a little similar to our Aussie V8 Supercar series.
Not quite, we don't have any formal rules (yet!).

It's embryonic, and there's a lot of interest.

Though if it becomes as popular, it'll be really really great! (here's hoping!)

Rob.
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Old 24 Apr 2006, 19:49 (Ref:1594051)   #27
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bigted should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Do we really need ANOTHER set of rules for cars that cost so much and will be redundant in a year or two?
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Old 24 Apr 2006, 19:52 (Ref:1594055)   #28
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No!
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Old 24 Apr 2006, 20:39 (Ref:1594097)   #29
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R59 should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridR59 should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
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Do we really need ANOTHER set of rules for cars that cost so much and will be redundant in a year or two?
The thing that you're missing here (the thread title is misleading, it's not SCV8), is that Mr Tucker's idea is to de-regulate, not to regulate.

The Snetterton opener to the Dunlop V8 Supercar Challenge will run without any regulation what so ever - to see what's what, and how fast some of us are unleashed!

The idea is to make it very simple in terms of rules - intake restrictor based on a well used formula that works. Other than that, very little in the way of restrictions to open the doors to just about anything that meets the category - ie: it's V8 powered.

Look at it this way - here's a few of the car's for Snetterton:

TVR Sagaris (a quantity of them eventually)
TVR Tuscan's (not sure how many)
Marcos' (plural)
DTM Astra
Australian V8 Ford Falcon
V8 Star Opel and Jaguar
Thundersaloon Astra V8 (mine)
Peugeot 407 (as seen at Autosport)
BMW V8's (various)

Lots of obsolete machinery there, all V8 powered, and all very Super indeed.

Rob.
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Old 24 Apr 2006, 20:50 (Ref:1594110)   #30
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Can't see how you can hope to compete against a Tuscan if I am honest. I think they will be the fly inthe ointment along with any other sports car.
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Old 25 Apr 2006, 10:57 (Ref:1594515)   #31
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Can't see how you can hope to compete against a Tuscan if I am honest. I think they will be the fly inthe ointment along with any other sports car.
Very kind of you to say so Al, we do hope so

Actually that's not correct. We'll be very pleased if the Tuscans are competitive, but not so quick they need to be pegged back. Our air intake system would be difficult to modify to fit restrictors, and I don't fancy trying to find a home for a couple of hundred kilos of lead on a car that weighs 870kg (sans pilot & fuel)
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Old 25 Apr 2006, 19:50 (Ref:1594853)   #32
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R59 should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridR59 should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
The issue is that overall, the laptimes should end up similar. The likes of the tuscan will have a braking and handling advantage over the big heavy tintop stuff. My advantage will be grunt and straightline speed. Hopefully, my bigger boots, with better GT spec Dunlop rubber will help a little.

Think of it like Mod Prods Al, lots of different marques, different specs, and when you get the right conditions - you get the 205's mixing it with the Starion Turbo's & Rover Vitesse, and that's what we'll have here, but all having V8's.

Tuscan6 has circa 450bhp, with 870Kg.
I have circa 700bhp, with 1100-1200Kg.
Adam Sharpe has circa 550bhp, but tips the scales at 1500Kg-ish.

But look at the Falcon's performance in Britcar, it's up there, faster than the Marcos, which weighs much less, but has similar power to the Tuscan, so isn't that far away.

We'll all see what's what in just over two weeks time.

I expect the Peugeot 407, which "only" has 550bhp, to be up at the front, simply because of it's chassis. I'll probably be doing an impersonation on a Yo-Yo, blasting 'em from Russell to the Esses, then getting swamped from the Esses back to Russell. I remember being on the other end, racing against Bernie Chodosh in his Corvette in the Birkett. I was in a 1600 Nova, and could climb all over him from the Esses through to Russell, but his 600bhp said bye-bye down the straights. I got him in the end, but it was cat n mouse for about 20 minutes. Great fun. We both enjoyed it.

That's what I hope to have in the Dunlop V8 Supercar Challenge.

Rob.
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Old 25 Apr 2006, 19:56 (Ref:1594856)   #33
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Bernie, he's local to me, do you know his son Sims he drives as well? We are operate similiar businesses and he uses my large format scanner facility occassionaly.

If these credit card busting mods I am doing work you never know I may have a play one day as long as they don''t want no fancy registration fee cause I ain't paying no more out.
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Old 25 Apr 2006, 20:10 (Ref:1594873)   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Al Weyman
Bernie, he's local to me, do you know his son Sims he drives as well? We are operate similiar businesses and he uses my large format scanner facility occassionaly.

If these credit card busting mods I am doing work you never know I may have a play one day as long as they don''t want no fancy registration fee cause I ain't paying no more out.

lol Well said Al.
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Old 26 Apr 2006, 05:20 (Ref:1595115)   #35
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Racing 59
The Falcon over there, (I think I have seen it on a Brit Car website, I think ex Seton for Austalians reading) you mention 450 HP, do they run with some form of limiters
Our cars with a lot of controls (basically only the cam is free) get well over 600 hp. 630 is a common figure - not bad from a 5000 cc push rod V8
When they get a few years old and move in to Sports Sedans they tend to get re-engined with bigger motors (6000cc limit) but producing similar HP so they last longer. Bigger valves and no rev limit help as well.
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Old 26 Apr 2006, 05:52 (Ref:1595125)   #36
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R59 should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridR59 should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
I think the figures that they were quoting for Adam's car was 550bhp at the wheels, which is circa 610-620 at the flywheel if the losses through the gearbox and the diff are around the 10% area.

I was looking to buy a Falcon that was running in the Konica series (ex-Michael Simpson), but funding fell through, so it didn't happen - that was about two years back.
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Old 27 Apr 2006, 12:01 (Ref:1596173)   #37
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Is that XV8r not just the 405/Jag rebodied (yet)again - look at the contacts there are some familiar names from the SCV8 days.
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Old 27 Apr 2006, 15:40 (Ref:1596319)   #38
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630bhp out of a 5 litre with just a cam change! I mean who am I to doubt that but I have a Chevrolet V8 5.8 with Elderbrock fully ported race heads and manifold, racing pistons, full roller cam, steel rods and crank, headers, auminium flywheel etc etc etc built to rev to 7800rpm and built by a top builder overhere and I would be lucky to get within 100bhp of that figure. Does not add up to me. 100bhp per litre out of an overhead cam engine used to be a bench mark but 630 from a basically stock 5 litre push rod engine?????? Some of those horse power figures look like some good old Red Neck BHP figures to me :-)

Last edited by Al Weyman; 27 Apr 2006 at 15:45.
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Old 27 Apr 2006, 17:04 (Ref:1596375)   #39
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R59 should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridR59 should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
They're about as stock as a BTCC engine!!

The Holdens are 18degree engines, not 23 like your ol' Chevy (that's worth 70-100bhp).

Here's the spec that they run:

5000cc Max, 10:1 Compression Ratio, 7500rpm limit.
Bore 101.473mm diameter or greater.
Cylinder head mods are free, based on it be recognisable as the original part, spark plugs must remain in the original position, and the valves must be closed by conventional coil springs. The largest inlet valve size is 2.125", max stem size is 7mm, and must be solid stems.

Pistons must not protrude above the top of the block face, and must weight more than 500gm (including pin, but excluding rings and retainers)

Rods are free but have to be "ferrous" and weigh 500gm minimum.

Crank is free providing the crankpin "phasing" is standard, and it's throw must be between 75.2 and 77.2mm.

Cam is free, but location and quanitity is standard, no variable valve timing.

Flywheel must be steel.

Induction system is fairly free, so they use multi-body injection.

That's about it.

That's "fairly stock" if you ask me!

Rob.
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Old 27 Apr 2006, 18:30 (Ref:1596433)   #40
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Yeah and not good for 630bhp unless they have a different method of measuring it of course.
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Old 27 Apr 2006, 19:05 (Ref:1596466)   #41
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R59 should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridR59 should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
With the right cam, an 18degree head flowed properly, and multi-throttle body injection, I would expect to see more than 100bhp/litre out of a Chevy/Holden. Looking at some of the stuff I've found in the last couple of years on Chevy tuning, 110bhp/litre is attainable from a 23deg engine with a 4 barrel carb.

Ric Wood's Holden ran at 6.3 litre, and turned out a healthy 738bhp on his own dyno, so that's British horsepower.

http://www.ricwood.com/v8_page.htm

I remember talking to Ric when he'd just fitted multi-body injection to his Calibra, and according to him, it was worth about 100bhp over the big 4 barrel carb (and much more economical too!).

So, 630bhp from a factory tuned, money no object 302ci lump, yep, easily possible.

The old 100bhp per litre rule has been well and truly hammered since 3L F1 cars were hitting 1000bhp, and now we have 2.4L V8's doing 800bhp.

New ideas are moving through to head tuners, piston manufacturers, etc.. and we're seeing things moving forwards for all engines, not just F1 exotica.

I think that with advancing technology, you could say that the rule of thumb would be 125bhp per litre for 2 valve engines, and 200bhp for 4 valve engines with conventional springs, and then over 300bhp per litre for 4 valve with pneumatic / hydraulic valve closing.

Rob.
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Old 27 Apr 2006, 19:58 (Ref:1596510)   #42
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Sorry I cannot see throttle bodies adding 100bhp over a properly sorted 4 barrel setup. Maybe a good increase in low down power and wider torque band but I can't see another 100 bhp at the top end. I remember a guy who raced with us a big straight six motor and spent absolute fortunes with a northern tuner on throttle bodies and I don't think it was any quicker than when he ran it on DCOE's (I still beat him with me 4 barrel) :-). There is a lot of bull talked in this game you know.
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Old 27 Apr 2006, 20:50 (Ref:1596537)   #43
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Indeed. I don't for a moment believe we get a full 450bhp from our Tuscan engines, but it has a nice ring to it down at the pub....
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Old 27 Apr 2006, 21:33 (Ref:1596559)   #44
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R59 should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridR59 should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
I thought that's what the TVR AJP V8 was supposed to put out in race trim?

Perhaps I was listening to someone in a pub again!

Rob.
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Old 28 Apr 2006, 07:39 (Ref:1596734)   #45
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I spent quite a time with the owner of EDA when he first brought a brand new Superflow Dyno, we built a 400 cu engine, flat tappet cam, camel hump heads, fully worked, fair lump but nt ultimate. We got 475 bhp (or was it 450, I have the read out I will check later) and 420lbs of torque out of it and he reckoned that the figures would have made many of the so called massive power big blocks built in the states and sold as 600 this 700 that bhp look sick, when bolted on the dyno they did not produce anything like the claims.

An accurate dyno soon weeds out the bullsh1t from the genuine builders. Oh he also showed me how easy it was to 'tweak' the read out if required. Quite frankly I take a lot of these figures banded about with an enormous pinch of salt.
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Old 28 Apr 2006, 15:44 (Ref:1597037)   #46
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I thought that's what the TVR AJP V8 was supposed to put out in race trim?

Perhaps I was listening to someone in a pub again!

Rob.
450bhp is what TVR claim from it. But you have to remember that there are horses, ponies, and then there are Blackpool donkeys

In the pub I have a 450bhp full race engine.

In the paddock (unless I've won) then I have 420bhp (Blackpool Horse Power)
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Old 29 Apr 2006, 02:15 (Ref:1597299)   #47
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Notso Swift should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Trust me with the V8 Supercars I know an Engine bulider at GRM (the Valvoline team), he motokahna's an supercharged 1100 mini special, and over 600 is right. All the teams have thier own dyno's and guys working full time on engines. GRM are not considered to be the best motors out there, so I am sure that there guys with better torque for the same power. These motors are a long way from stock, though you could call them "production derived" There is a lot more than a cam change, but the cam is the component that the guys work the hardest on.
They a built with a life of about 1200 km. Cost About $80k each, and a refresh is $30k.

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Old 29 Apr 2006, 06:43 (Ref:1597338)   #48
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1200 kms life thats not bad, in UK club racing that would equate to about three seasons without a teardown, sure many racers overhere would settle for that:-)

I think some of this confusion and figures must be down to the different ways of measuring bhp, (SAE and the other method(s) compared to how it was done, not sure of my facts).
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Old 29 Apr 2006, 17:27 (Ref:1597627)   #49
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R59 should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridR59 should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Converting that into GBP, that's just over 33K for a new engine, and 12.4K for a rebuild. That's about on-par for a British built motor of similar spec (going on what I've been quoted in the past - full house, with injection, around 1200km race life, which works out at around 8-10hrs).

I know of a good V8 builder that's sent his engines "the other way" over to the US, and they were astounded by his 550bhp Chevy's that blew away 650 and 700bpp (broken pony power) US built units.

I'll keep quiet about my engine woes for now.

You be sure to come back soon for tales of woe from the "smoking gun".

Rob.
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Old 29 Apr 2006, 18:26 (Ref:1597654)   #50
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The guy that built my engine does just that Rob or used to, bit of a coals to Newcastle situation but if there is better coal tham Newcastles finest then so be it.
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