Discussion - Is our sport on a knife edge at the moment

[Mal]

To pick up on a lot of the discussions in various threads about teams switching either way between sportscars and F1, it seems to me we are on a bit of a knife edge where we could be in for a golden period or it could end in disaster. It is very difficult to judge which way it will go:


QUOTE=Dead-Eye;2471973]F1 = guaranteed massive TV exposure. Sportscars = hardly any TV exposure. What would you support if you were a sponsor? [/QUOTE]

Thats true but you have to ask why that is and what would happen if the big teams left.

Not saying it is going to happen but say for example Ferrari, Renault, BMW and Toyota etc all left in a big hoohaa and all announced an attack on Le Mans and the 'New Sportscar World Series'

F1 would be left to Williams, maybe Mclaren and all these new teams. In this scenario I think much of the media coverage and money would move with them - with a coodinated marketing policy and proper bought in TV coverage for the first year or two it could work. The Format of at least some of the races would have to change to be more TV freindly.

It could work in theory but it would but it would need a proper coordinated approach.

I dont think for a minute it will happen like this but there could certainly be a fall out from this to the benefit of sportscars -this is more likely the more sportscars projects itself as promoting and developing new and efficient technology and allows a broad approach to that goal.

Alternatively if no new teams come in and lots of the existing ones go to F1 and Indycar then sportscars could be about to implode.

Therefore I feel our racing is on a bit of a knife edge at the moment as with a lot of things in this world.

[acox93]

All good points, however I dont think we will know which way its going to go until the F1 entries are confirmed which I think is in july. Correct me if im wrong.

[Speed-King]

If indeed a bunch of manufacturers joined P1, I think we would see a series that looked a lot more like F1 than we would want it.

Single-class-prototype racing, 20 car-grids, TV-friendly 90 minute races, one driver per car. Le Mans would stay the same, but the regular season wouldn't bear much resemblance to current ACO-style sportscar racing...

[old man]

You are right in saying that for sportscar racing to grow in public recognition it has to be more TV and spectator friendly and the class structure is one thing that those who would promote it would want to change. Even enthusiasts have to find ways of following 4 class racing so the man on the Clapham omnibus has no chance but this is possible if the promoters put their mind to it.

Outside the cognicenti who would know the names of sportscar drivers beyond a few like AMcN and TK so we would see GP drivers coming in more for the top drives, not neccessarily a bad thing of course. Overall though your thought that money would follow the big team names is an essential ingredient for TV to be available through terrestial and Freeview type channels

Could make for very interesting times though

[Trussers]

I wouldn't say it was on a knife edge... but as F1 goes through its various tribulations (as it has seemed to manage to do for several years now)... spygate, NOTW Mosely scandal and now budget capping, there may be manufacturers who move away from F1.

I thought that this might have been a likely scenario had F1 gone further down its "spec cars / engines" avenue which was proposed sometime last year.

But I am not sure that sportscars is that likely an alternative. Because: Sportscars should imply endurance - just my opinion of course - but any more than one sprint race (by which I mean two or three hours) per year is too many. And an endurance race is not TV friendly, unless you have a TV company willing to invest in doing it properly with proper summary shows, which is an extremely expensive way of making television.

Manufacturers would probably more likely look at the WTCC, if it were sensibly organised. Or at World Rallying (ditto).

Fact: Manufacturers are like the tide - just a little bit less predictable. But they will come and go. Endurance racing will (I hope) always survive because it always has more depth than the mere manufacturer element.

I can't see any manufacturer pulling away from F1, due to its cost, and then sinking funding into a sportscar project.

Equally, what endurance / sportscar racing provides is not provided by F1, indycar or anything else, so I wouldn't expect the stalwart sportscar teams to drift away either.

Good discussion point, though

[Mal]

The perception of F1 with its constant fighting, indulgent lifestyle and wasteful image is possibly somewhere manufacturers dont want to be at present so perhaps F1's marketing value is waning for some.

Endurance racing on the other hand can offer the opposite image - ie pushing efficient technology making fuel tyres and parts that last longer and a test against the odds etc.

You say too many sprint races wont work but a series with the varied format of ALMS would imo. Besides NASCAR regularly has 3 - 4 hour races and they can get an audience.

With regard to the classes it is the four classes that make the racing always exciting even if the up front battle is poor as there is always overtaking. What is needed is that each class is more visually distinctive - maybe have 2 classes (GT and LMP) but have much broader rules so there is more than one way to approach them - you cannot argue that the racing in ALMS when the P2 raced the P1's was some of the best ever simply because to two classes achieved the similar lap times through different approaches

[Steven Humphrey]

I think we're in for good times in sportscar racing. As Mal points out, it's been pushing green technologies for several years now and is far more relevant to road car technologies than F1 (KERS anybody?).

Endurance racing will never make good live tv but highlights packages are an option. But circuits can get good attendances if they put on lots of off track activities. Long races give spectators lots of time to wander around so fairgrounds, live music & kids activities are all big attractions. In fact it's one of the few types of racing that can appeal to families if it's marketed & promoted properly. Silverstone had 57000 visitors last year for the LMS, mainly because Peugot gave out loads of tickets and put on lots of off track stuff.

[courageous]

if f1 teams joined sportscar racing, it would ruin the sport for the short-medium term as they would demand shorter races, shutting out any entries who were not on their pace and the shutting down of the fan friendly accesabile atmosphere.

If we lost prodrive, Epsilon Euskadi, the Acura teams, RML etc... To single seaters, then as much of a dissapointment that would be, there are Pescarolo, ORECA, Zytek, Creation, Lola, plus any works teams who fancy a crack.

Basically, the more gained, the more we loose.

[TWK]

Originally Posted by acox93

All good points, however I dont think we will know which way its going to go until the F1 entries are confirmed which I think is in july. Correct me if im wrong.

June 12

[Mal]

Originally Posted by TWK

June 12

Yes with that announcement on the 12th and Luca starting Le Mans the next day it will be a shame if they use Le Mans as a pawn in the posturing between FOTA and the FIA.

[Bob Riebe]

How different is racing and politics over there.
There you have the, from reading your posts, sports cars verses formula one political game; whereas here it is more like someone has a knife to the jugular of most "major" motorsports, and there is no-one and nothing to stop the knife from being pushed down.

[Mal]

Originally Posted by Bob Riebe

How different is racing and politics over there.
There you have the, from reading your posts, sports cars verses formula one political game; whereas here it is more like someone has a knife to the jugular of most "major" motorsports, and there is no-one and nothing to stop the knife from being pushed down.

no - its a F1 politics game which Sportscar may well get embroiled into to its benefit or otherwise.

[Tom87]

Good points by all so far.

I would agree that Sportscars cannot capture the audience that it seeks because the races are just too long. My girlfriend has developed a passing interest in motorsports from living with me but sportscars are just a step too far - she watches all the F1 races and enjoys the spectacle of live motorsport but 6 hours of the same thing is just too much for many racing fans, let alone the general public.

I'm not entirely sure I see a possible influx of manufacturers as a good thing, the racing in sportscars is good as it is and has a reasonable privateer to manufacturer balance. Manufacturers want the rules to suit them and it's hard enough keeping everyone happy with the handful we have now, let alone adding Toyota, Ferrari, BMW (Prototypes), Renault etc. Any series requires some degree of manufacturer support to gain TV exposure but it is a double edged sword.

Finally, I can't see lack of teams causing the ALMS or LMS to dissapear in the near future as the fame and prestige of Le Mans is enough on its own for teams to warrant entering even a much more dilluted series (as we are already seeing in the ALMS). There were 80 or so entries for 55 places at Le Mans this year so even with teams folding and moving to other series' Le Mans is in good shape.

[kdr]

Due to sportscars being more cerebral than f1 i can never see it becoming the new f1.

I can however see a part return to the halcyon days of 99 Le Mans. I suspect that the likes of Toyota, Nissan and Renault look at the success of Audi and how it has rubbed off on their sales with envious eyes. Toyota in particular must say to themselves what were we thinking..

[Wims]

I dont really think the F1 teams would switch to sportscars, maybe they'll attend LM once or twice, but i think if they split from F1 they would start their own openwheeler series with similar rules to F1

[Satorian]

Originally Posted by Wim Sjøholm

I dont really think the F1 teams would switch to sportscars, maybe they'll attend LM once or twice, but i think if they split from F1 they would start their own openwheeler series with similar rules to F1

Or, considering that we are talking about manufacturers who want to create the pinnacle of racing, yet distance themselves as far apart from F1 as possible, might create some superprototype racing. I mean, current LMP1 aren't that far away from hanging with F1. More power, more downforce, less weight, 2l-Biturbo-Hybrids with KERS with alternate fuels.

Well, one can dream...

[Dead-Eye]

I think we can put the idea of a mass exodus of manufacturers from F1 to rest by now.
What might be worth considering is Ferrari's dilemma: They have a budget of a couple of hundred million a year and will only be allowed to spend a fraction of it in the near future. If they have that money anyway, could they do an additional program with it? The same goes for the likes of Toyota, Renault and BMW: Is there something to gain from running two programs instead of sizing down your operation to work with the new budget?

[HORNDAWG]

While I do not think it will happen, I think it would also be wrong to dismiss the possibility until after the 12th!



L.P.

[joeb]

Originally Posted by Dead-Eye

I think we can put the idea of a mass exodus of manufacturers from F1 to rest by now.
What might be worth considering is Ferrari's dilemma: They have a budget of a couple of hundred million a year and will only be allowed to spend a fraction of it in the near future. If they have that money anyway, could they do an additional program with it? The same goes for the likes of Toyota, Renault and BMW: Is there something to gain from running two programs instead of sizing down your operation to work with the new budget?

That is a good question, assuming Ferrari and the likes are ultimately more interested in the exposure they get from F1, what is there to gain from a sportscar program? Could they try some new technology? I'm sure somebody at Ferrari has thought of a few ideas.

[Mal]

Originally Posted by joeb

That is a good question, assuming Ferrari and the likes are ultimately more interested in the exposure they get from F1, what is there to gain from a sportscar program? Could they try some new technology? I'm sure somebody at Ferrari has thought of a few ideas.

I must admit I see Ferrari staying in F1 and if any resources are available a Maserati or Alfa sportscar programme added. However it would make some sense yo could kick it off as a Ferrari programme to gain publicity and later switch it to Maser or Alfa.

Such an announcement at Le Mans next week would lead to massive publicity for the sportscar and help with their bargaining over F1. They could then back down later by switching the sportscar programme to a different brand

[porsche91722]

Originally Posted by Mal

I must admit I see Ferrari staying in F1 and if any resources are available a Maserati or Alfa sportscar programme added. However it would make some sense yo could kick it off as a Ferrari programme to gain publicity and later switch it to Maser or Alfa.

Such an announcement at Le Mans next week would lead to massive publicity for the sportscar and help with their bargaining over F1. They could then back down later by switching the sportscar programme to a different brand

Sounds great, I hope Ferrari are thinking the same way as you. If indeed, it pans out that way, everybodys a winner. From what I heard earlier today the Max and Bernie show don't seem to be changing their tune just yet.

[Tom87]

Originally Posted by Mal

I must admit I see Ferrari staying in F1 and if any resources are available a Maserati or Alfa sportscar programme added. However it would make some sense yo could kick it off as a Ferrari programme to gain publicity and later switch it to Maser or Alfa.

Such an announcement at Le Mans next week would lead to massive publicity for the sportscar and help with their bargaining over F1. They could then back down later by switching the sportscar programme to a different brand

Forgive me if this has been established, but is there actually any evidence (aside from Montezemolo starting the 24hrs) to suggest a Ferrari sportscar project or is just speculation at this point?

[Mal]

Originally Posted by Tom87

Forgive me if this has been established, but is there actually any evidence (aside from Montezemolo starting the 24hrs) to suggest a Ferrari sportscar project or is just speculation at this point?

No its just speculation from people who want to see it - except

1/ It has been mentioned in the F1 press that Ferrari is considering it and Luca has mentioned it.
2/ Luca and Stefan Dominecelli are attending Le Mans this is year theory to celebrate Ferraris anniversary at the event - but they have never been for any other anniversary
3/ Sportscars are the only obvious place where F1 teams could head for that has sufficient history and potential prestige and a ready made set of race that could be used that in many cases have good attendance and in some cases good exposure in the US market.

[porsche91722]

Originally Posted by Tom87

Forgive me if this has been established, but is there actually any evidence (aside from Montezemolo starting the 24hrs) to suggest a Ferrari sportscar project or is just speculation at this point?

I just pinched this off the Ferrari site, it's a few weeks old now, but I don't think anything has changed -

"If it is not possible for all parties to reach agreement, then in line with the decision of the Main Board, taken on 12th May, Ferrari will not enter its cars in a competition that, with the planned scenario in place, would see a watering down of the characteristics that have endowed Formula 1 with the status of the most important motor sport series and that have specifically led to the Maranello marque’s uninterrupted participation in the world championship since 1950. In this situation, Ferrari will continue to compete in races of a calibre worthy of the marque, matching its level of innovation and technological research."

[Tom87]

Thanks guys, I guess the concern is that Ferrari are using Le Mans as a threat to Mosely etc, rather than having any real intentions of entering.