Official Circuit Photographers

PaulSands · 22 Nov 2006, 11:42 (Ref:1772180)

As its been nearly seven months since I attended a circuit has anything changed with regards to photography rights?
Have any of the circuits adopted an approach similar to Mallory Park? I had heard a rumour that same photographer was planning to stitch up the rights at Donington

Tim the Grey · 22 Nov 2006, 13:24 (Ref:1772255)

I don;t know anything useful, but how the hell is someone NEW supposed to get a foot in the door?
I mean, I have pix up on a site of the LMES. I don't charge for a download, but would I have to take them off if someone OWNED the imaage rights for Donington?
I haven't been to Mallory for a while, but I have to say I'm wondering if I should bother anymore!

Seems to me that folk are taking a short sighted view if this turns out to be the case?

PaulSands · 22 Nov 2006, 13:32 (Ref:1772257)

I think you would know if they did have the rights. At Mallory you have to sign on as a photographer with their resident guys. Last time I was at Donington there wasnt any restriction but I was just wondering if there had been any change.

Tim the Grey · 22 Nov 2006, 13:47 (Ref:1772267)

Sorry, Paul. I'm NOT a 'working' Pro. I'm a punter who PAYS to get in.
If I then stick an image up, that the driver/car owner wants to buy, am I perhaps breaking someone's rules?
I think that's the point I wanted to make.
From your side of the fence (literally!), I can see there being no market for freelancers if this sort of tie in creeps in.
See the thread re the Aussie V8s, and Brit. Superbikes, a while back?
Legal Beagles had strong armed some guy who had pix 'offered for sale' on a website.
OK for the extant guys, but no good if you wanted to come aboard?

PaulSands · 22 Nov 2006, 13:52 (Ref:1772273)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim the Grey

From your side of the fence (literally!), I can see there being no market for freelancers if this sort of tie in creeps in.

which is why I havent been racing since May

**BertMk2** · 22 Nov 2006, 14:06 (Ref:1772281)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim the Grey

If I then stick an image up, that the driver/car owner wants to buy, am I perhaps breaking someone's rules?

In most cases you'd be breaking your terms of entry if you're not a signed on photographer and you sell your images. If you look at the small print on most tickets you'll see that the rights to the images you take belong to the circuit - you can't sell them without their permission. There are some exceptions to this but it's certainly true of Silverstone, Donington and the MSV circuits.

924nut · 22 Nov 2006, 18:52 (Ref:1772478)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim the Grey

If I then stick an image up, that the driver/car owner wants to buy, am I perhaps breaking someone's rules?
I think that's the point I wanted to make.

I think if you search back through the threads you will find many that have discussed this matter - they go into allsorts of copyright rules - unfortunately it is being applied at more and more venues these days.

I personally have encountered this at a kart circuit and been asked to remove certain images - but good luck

Tim the Grey · 22 Nov 2006, 22:31 (Ref:1772619)

So, how exactlu do I sign on, if I'm just a normal cash paying punter on teh gate?
Kinda Catch 22 this, isn't it?
I just read the LMES Donington program. I may ask the Boss, as she's a lawyer, if I have breached Donington's T&Cs, as I have images on a website that I have NO doubt people have downloaded... Not been charged for, but downloaded?

8^(

Takes the fun out of things, don't it?

tim-b · 22 Nov 2006, 23:57 (Ref:1772684)

i'm almost entirely certain that there's nothing wrong/illegal with posting for downloads...the problems arise only if you are trying to sell images.

redshoes · 23 Nov 2006, 08:52 (Ref:1772879)

Don't count on it. The T&C make reference to 'making available for public display' or silmilar. Posting on a website could be seen as public display. I don't know of any specific example where Donington or LMES have taken action but if you check back through older threads BSB certain have threatened to.

Re signing on, you need to be accredited media not a paying punter. Generally speaking can't get accreditation unless you can prove you have a history of pictures being published, and you can't (legal) publish anything unless you are accredited. You're right, it's a big catch 22.

PaulSands · 23 Nov 2006, 09:18 (Ref:1772898)

It goes deeper than that, this years applications for many circuits not only required proof of published images but also proof of published images from multiple meetings at the circuit you wanted to attend. A bit tricky if going for the first time.
However some circuits like Anglesey & Croft seemed happy enough to accept just a letter of accreditation from the editor of the magazine you were covering the event for. Spa sent me mine for the 6 hours without me even having to apply as they have been using images I took in 2003 in their literature and on their website

Ian Sowman · 23 Nov 2006, 09:34 (Ref:1772917)

Generally speaking, if working for a bona fide and reputable publication, the published images requirement will be waived.

Piglet · 23 Nov 2006, 13:14 (Ref:1773201)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim the Grey

but would I have to take them off if someone OWNED the imaage rights for Donington?

They do, the circuit owner/operator own all the rights for events taking place on their land and the series owners own the rights to their own events.

Mainly circuits and series owners are fairly relaxed about people just displaying images but start doing more than that (either with or without media accreditation) and you are starting to ask for trouble.

Tim the Grey · 23 Nov 2006, 13:40 (Ref:1773218)

I have no issue with the fact that the pictures were taken ON private property, as I say, I'm just a mug punter who has expensive kit, and pays at the gate to get in.
I'm wondering about, say, my son, who MAY want to do this sort of thing as a paying hobby/living, in a few years. How is HE supposed to 'break in' when he cannot SHOW a portfolio to a prospective employer.

As I said, Catch-22!

PaulSands · 23 Nov 2006, 13:48 (Ref:1773230)

Nothing to stop him building a portfolio from the punters side to start with.

badgerbaiter · 24 Nov 2006, 10:31 (Ref:1773904)

if you sold or displayed photos from the punter side of the fence then to be honest the circuit would stand pretty much 0 chance in court of winning. buying a ticket that has some small print on the back of it is hardly a binding contract and is more just to scare you.
however selling photos of some famous drivers can land you in hot water as you need consent from them if they are recogisable.

did you even know that some buildings are copyright? the london eye is an example. you cant sell photos of the london eye without getting permission first. go onto a stock photography website and look for a photo of the london eye, you wont find one.

Snapperjack · 24 Nov 2006, 12:00 (Ref:1773970)

Quote:

Originally Posted by badgerbaiter

if you sold or displayed photos from the punter side of the fence then to be honest the circuit would stand pretty much 0 chance in court of winning. buying a ticket that has some small print on the back of it is hardly a binding contract and is more just to scare you.

Thank you for your learned advice.

PaulSands · 24 Nov 2006, 12:04 (Ref:1773974)

So back to the original question, other than Mallory & possibly occasionally Anglesey there are no "official" point of sale photographers elsewhere to anybodys knowledge?

Happy Snapper · 24 Nov 2006, 12:32 (Ref:1773992)

Not that I have come across, for race days as you say Mallory & possibly occasionally Anglesey, mid week track days is a different question.... And JP has his own "team" at Bedford

PaulSands · 24 Nov 2006, 23:12 (Ref:1774394)

Thats a point I know MSV has an official photographer as I spoke to him in '05 at Silverstone (covering the Formula Audi Palmer). Having said that though they contacted me to use an image from Cadwell cos they didnt have one of their own there. I have actually inquired of Mallory if the situation remains the same for 2007 and also when the tender might be up for renewal, no answer yet thoough

Happy Snapper · 25 Nov 2006, 07:29 (Ref:1774536)

Best of luck if you do get to bid for it, can only be an improvment.....

PDS · 25 Nov 2006, 19:06 (Ref:1774834)

Quote:

Originally Posted by PaulSands

Thats a point I know MSV has an official photographer as I spoke to him in '05 at Silverstone (covering the Formula Audi Palmer).

That photographer may only cover the Palmer Audi series, he certainly does not do the bulk of the photography for JP at Brands Hatch!

I don't think MSV circuits will go the same way as Mallory, infact I hear through the grapevine that things at Mallory may change for the better!

**Snapper Baz** · 25 Nov 2006, 20:49 (Ref:1774890)

Pete, tell us more if you can-we're all ears! Though to be honest it hasn't affected me too much this year (at the moment!!) but it woiuld great news if it were to change for the better for all. Paul, have you really been away that long-it seems like weeks ago I saw you last!!

PDS · 25 Nov 2006, 21:03 (Ref:1774899)

Which bit Baz?

Mallory Park? The story I heard is that are having problems over, of all things 'ownership of copyright'!

It has given them a major problem that they never had before. It has been suggested they may drop the idea.... 'Allegedly'

PaulSands · 25 Nov 2006, 21:07 (Ref:1774903)

May Day bbank holiday at Anglesey was my last outing...I've been shooting girlies in jodphurs for the last 6 months (lifes tough sometimes

)

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