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Old 8 Sep 2017, 09:42 (Ref:3765364)   #826
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Originally Posted by chillibowl View Post
it is a pretty big pay check and frankly Alonso doesnt have many places to go.

i wouldnt go so far as saying he is toxic but his options are limited.

personally i would like to see him go to Williams as that could be a truly inspired choice all be it a choice with a much smaller pay check.
Alonso states that McLaren's engine choice is not the main factor in deciding his future.
He gives LMP1 regulations, Indy aero and Andretti's plans as factors which suggests a multi-discipline future possibly?

http://www.crash.net/f1/news/881974/1/alonso-mclaren-f1-engine-call-not-biggest-factor-in-deciding-future
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Old 8 Sep 2017, 09:51 (Ref:3765367)   #827
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Deadline was for McLaren to make a decision. Not an announcement.

We'll have to wait a little bit longer for that.

It was never going to be the Tuesday after Monza. Too many issues to be sorted. Crofty was a bit too eager.
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Old 8 Sep 2017, 10:22 (Ref:3765376)   #828
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Well hopefully we'll know by Singapore
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Old 8 Sep 2017, 10:29 (Ref:3765379)   #829
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Originally Posted by S griffin View Post
Well hopefully we'll know by Singapore
Both Boullier and Alonso have only committed to being 'hopeful' of knowing the situation by Singapore.
It sounds like McLaren still haven't decided their CoA.

Is Wolff's latest comment aimed at RBR/STR?

http://www.crash.net/f1/news/881976/1/wolff-stresses-importance-of-respect-between-f1-manufacturer-rivals
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Old 8 Sep 2017, 10:51 (Ref:3765387)   #830
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How about... Renault engines show up at McLaren, and they are badged as Hondas... like the TAG Heuers at Red Bull Racing

Honda can shift their own rabble to Toro Rosso.. and figure out what is missing from their program.. and come back to McLaren if necessary.

Easy?
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Old 8 Sep 2017, 11:11 (Ref:3765390)   #831
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Well they are all competitive, but must at the same time have respect, so they all know where they are with each other
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Old 8 Sep 2017, 11:51 (Ref:3765407)   #832
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chunder should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridchunder should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridchunder should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
I very, very much doubt you could badge an engine as a rival brand.

That is never going to happen, maybe you could badge as Renault as a Nissan or infiniti obviously, but not a brand that has nothing to do with the source manufacturer.

AS what is the point? everyone would know it's really a Renault, same as everyone knows Red Bull use one, I never understood why they did that in the first place!!
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Old 8 Sep 2017, 12:05 (Ref:3765411)   #833
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Yes, that definitely won't happen.
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Old 12 Sep 2017, 17:05 (Ref:3766334)   #834
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wolfhound should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridwolfhound should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridwolfhound should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridwolfhound should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
McLaren Honda will shortly be no more as McLaren Renault is about to become a reality for 3 years up to the end of the 2020 season.

http://classic.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/131767

McLaren will have nowhere to hide as they will have the same motors as Red Bull and an improving Renault.
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Old 12 Sep 2017, 17:32 (Ref:3766342)   #835
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I'll await the official announcement but it looks like I'm due a trip to the chocolate hat shop as I've said all along that McL will have to stick with Hon next yer.
(Perhaps my wife is right, she's always telling me that I'm wrong...)
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Old 12 Sep 2017, 17:38 (Ref:3766345)   #836
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numerous sites now reporting it including motorsports.com...between that and autosport i would say its official.

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/m...ership-952183/

about time too!

however it turns out in 2018 for Mclaren, Honda, Renault, STR, and RB, its going to be a fun ride!

very excited to see what they all can do now...pretty much have already shifted my focus to 2018. the 2017 is now dead to me!
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Old 12 Sep 2017, 18:49 (Ref:3766361)   #837
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wolfhound should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridwolfhound should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridwolfhound should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridwolfhound should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
It could be interesting if McLaren were to kick Red Bulls 4$$ to be top dog in the Renault stakes, but it should be fun to watch.
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Old 12 Sep 2017, 22:27 (Ref:3766398)   #838
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Originally Posted by chillibowl View Post
numerous sites now reporting it including motorsports.com...between that and autosport i would say its official.

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/m...ership-952183/

about time too!

however it turns out in 2018 for Mclaren, Honda, Renault, STR, and RB, its going to be a fun ride!

very excited to see what they all can do now...pretty much have already shifted my focus to 2018. the 2017 is now dead to me!
Autosport & Motorsport.com are the same news source, operated by the same group of people..
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Old 13 Sep 2017, 10:08 (Ref:3766474)   #839
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At last, they have a decent engine in the back of their car. Hopefully Fred and Stoffel will be in the top ten where they belong more often.
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Old 13 Sep 2017, 10:10 (Ref:3766477)   #840
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BBC reports that the driver pairing at McLaren remains unchanged for 2018.
Renault and STR driver position probably next to be confirmed.
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Old 14 Sep 2017, 19:28 (Ref:3766895)   #841
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Ive just found an interesting stat, Alonso retired more (12 times) with engine/drive train related issues at Honda then he did in his whole career from 2001 onwards (11 times).

2001, France, Minardi
2003, Austria, Renault
2003, France, Renault
2003, USA, Renault
2003, Japan, Renault
2006, Italy, Renault
2008, Spain, Renault
2009, Hungary, Renault
2010, Malaysia, Ferrari
2014, Italy, Ferrari
2014, Japan, Ferrari

------------------------------------------


2015, Malaysia, McLaren
2015, Monaco, McLaren
2015, Canada, McLaren
2015, Italy, McLaren
2015, Mexico, McLaren
2016, Spain, McLaren
2016, Austria, McLaren
2017, Bahrein, McLaren
2017, Canada, McLaren
2017, UK, McLaren
2017, Belgium, McLaren
2017, Italy, McLaren
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Old 15 Sep 2017, 11:59 (Ref:3767065)   #842
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Now that everything has been confirmed and Honda is going Toro Rosso what are the chances there are any new Honda updates for the McLaren this season? I think they have rumbled about new versions and engine builds but will McLaren be happy with them testing new stuff to help STR for 2018 this season? It's not like anything Honda will show up with this season could possibly be passed to, or wanted by, Renault; legally of course but would anyone want information from Honda other than don't do that?
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Old 15 Sep 2017, 12:21 (Ref:3767079)   #843
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Question: McLaren Honda, can they compete?


In a timeline....

Quote:

May 16, 2013 – McLaren and Honda confirm that the two parties will reunite for the 2015 Formula 1 season, rekindling a partnership that delivered multiple titles in the late 1980s/early 1990s.

2014 season – Mercedes vaults to the front while McLaren is mired in the midfield, amid suggestions that the manufacturer has provided lacklustre service and sub-par treatment, compromising McLaren's prospects, while ensuring Honda cannot learn from the Silver Arrows' power unit.

November 25, 2014 – Following a brief shakedown at Silverstone, Stoffel Vandoorne gives the Honda-powered MP4-29H/1X1 a public run during the two-day post-race test following the Abu Dhabi season finale. Vandoorne manages only five full laps across the two days, amid problems, with the car twice stopping out on track. "We all want to go into Melbourne thinking we can win the race," says an optimistic Eric Boullier.

December 11, 2014 – McLaren confirms that it has signed Fernando Alonso on a three-year deal to partner Jenson Button. "I am joining this project with enormous enthusiasm and determination, knowing that it may require some time to achieve the results we are aiming for, which is no problem for me," explains Alonso.

February 1-4, 2015 – McLaren's MP4-30 makes its debut at Jerez but the car is unreliable, finishing bottom of the mileage charts, while the best lap is seven seconds off the pace. The team, however, insists that there is nothing to worry about.

February 22, 2015 – Fernando Alonso crashes heavily through Turn 3 at the Circuit de Barcelona-Catalunya and is hospitalised as a precaution, with the cause of the accident remaining a mystery. Alonso ultimately withdraws from the final test, and opening race in Australia, as technical problems persist, leaving the team firmly on the back foot.

March 15, 2015 – The first race of the partnership is a troubled affair. McLaren qualifies as the slowest team while Kevin Magnussen is unable to even take the start after smoke trails from his engine on his reconnaissance lap. Jenson Button finishes as the final classified runner in 11th place, having been lapped twice by race winner Lewis Hamilton.

May 24, 2015 – After a string of difficult events, as it becomes clear that Honda lacks energy deployment at the end of straights, the partnership scores its first points in Monaco, as Button comes home in eighth place. Further problems follow across the summer, amid difficulty developing due to the token system, before a double top 10 finish is achieved in Hungary.

Mid-2015 – Honda insists the relationship with McLaren remains healthy, and continues to target podium finishes across the remainder of the year, despite engine penalties racking up. However, motorsport boss Yasuhisa Arai comments: "We knew it wouldn't be easy, but perhaps we didn't imagine that it would be this hard."

November 14, 2015 – Alonso, having humiliated Honda at Suzuka by labelling his power unit a "GP2 engine", stops on track during qualifying at Interlagos. Alonso slumps trackside in a deckchair and briefly sunbathes, before he and Button make their way to the podium, demonstrating some black humour.

November 29, 2015 – McLaren finishes the year in ninth position in the Constructors' Championship, having amassed just 27 points, taking points in only five of the 19 Grands Prix.

February 23, 2016 – Honda confirms that it has replaced Arai with Yusuke Hasegawa.

Pre-season 2016 – McLaren-Honda demonstrates improved pace and reliability, putting itself into the midfield fight. Button labels the gains the "biggest improvement yet", while Hasegawa says Honda was able to "confirm the improvements in reliability, deployment and engine performance that we focused on during the off-season".

Mid-2016 – Honda remains the weakest power unit but gains enable McLaren to fight in the midfield, regularly finishing in the points, as reliability also improves. Boullier labels the transformation from 2015 to 2016 as "day and night", and says "Based on where they are today and what we expect them to step up, we will get there. We will get there. I don't know if it will be in six months, one year or two years. But we will get there." Boullier also hints that the new 2017 regulations can be seen as a reset for everyone – including McLaren.

November 15, 2016 – Following years of power struggles, Ron Dennis announces that he has been forced to stand down as Chairman and Chief Executive Officer of the McLaren Technology Group, ending his 36-year tenure. Six days later, Zak Brown is appointed to head the team, while two months later Formula 1 CEO Jost Capito departs, amid a winter of upheaval in management roles.

November 27, 2016 – McLaren finishes the season sixth in the championship, with 76 points, an improvement of three positions on 2015, having taken points finishes in 13 of 21 Grands Prix.

January 7, 2017 – McLaren confirms that Honda has redesigned its power unit, aided by the removal of the token system, believing that the 2015/16 approach had a lower performance potential than the revised design. Honda reveals in February that it is a "high risk" approach.

February 24, 2017 – McLaren unveils a new-look for 2017, mixing orange with black, in a nod to its team history. Alonso says the team is aiming to look "respectable", while commenting: "The start of the season will be a challenge. But I'd like to think we can target the second half of the year as a time when we'll really be able to start making useful performance steps."

March 8, 2017 – Pre-season testing turns out to be an abysmal period for the partnership, amid an absence of reliability and performance at the Circuit de Barcelona-Catalunya. Alonso comments: "We have only one problem at the moment and that is the power unit; there is no reliability and there is no power... I think we are around 30 km/h down on the straight, every straight." Boullier admits the partnership is at "maximum strain". Hasegawa concedes Honda is slightly "scared" about its performance deficit.

March 16, 2017 – Reports emerge that McLaren has sounded out Mercedes regarding a potential power unit supply for 2018. "Together with Honda we are considering options," a spokesperson tells without rejecting suggestions that such a situation has occurred.

March 26, 2017 – Alonso makes it through to Q2 before retiring with a suspension issue at the Australia season-opener, while Vandoorne finishes at the back, two laps down. "I think in normal conditions, at a normal circuit, we should be last," says Alonso.

April 12, 2017 – McLaren announces that Alonso will participate at the Indianapolis 500 rather than the Monaco Grand Prix, following a tie-up between the team, Andretti and Honda.

April 28, 2017 – At just the fourth event of the year in Russia, Vandoorne takes on his fifth engine elements, earning him a grid penalty for exceeding his allocation. Alonso, meanwhile, estimates McLaren is losing 2.5s/lap on the straights, before his car fails on the formation lap. "Every weekend is the same," comments Alonso.

April 30, 2017 – Honda announces that it will supply Sauber with power units in 2018, "in addition to the partnership with McLaren", which labels the new deal a chance to "double R&D" for the Japanese manufacturer.

May 25, 2017 – Brown outlines that McLaren will stick with Honda in 2018, commenting: "We have been very consistent and we are committed to Honda – there will be no change."

May 28, 2017 – Alonso competes at the sharp end of the pack during his run at the Indianapolis 500, only to retire due to an engine failure.

June 7, 2017 – Brown comments that McLaren has "serious concerns" over Honda, believing the engine supplier to be "a bit lost". "Our preference is to win the World Championship with Honda," he says. "But at some point you need to make a decision as to whether that's achievable. And we have serious concerns. Missing upgrades, and upgrades not delivering to the level we were told they were going to, you can only take that so long. And we're near our limit."

June 8, 2017 – As doubts swirl over Alonso's future, he makes an emphatic statement in Canada, declaring: "If we are winning before September or something like that, [when] I will make a decision, then I will stay." Clearly, it is noted by observers, McLaren will not be winning by September…

June 9, 2017 – As the situation deteriorates, Brown says of McLaren's 2018 options: "We have a plan B, a Plan C. We have some plans." Hasegawa responds, stressing: "It is very unfortunate that we can't give them a good [power unit], we can't convince them that we can do that. Of course, we need much improvement from the performance and reliability point of view – we will do everything and we need to do everything."

June 11, 2017 – Following a dismal performance in Canada, as the team remains rooted to the foot of the standings, without a point, Brown declares that McLaren will take a "proactive" approach to the situation.

June 17, 2017 – After a barrage of criticism across the Canadian weekend, Hasegawa accepts Honda is "frustrated" by its predicament, but it does not mean McLaren wants "a divorce".

June 20, 2017 – Mercedes boss Toto Wolff insists the manufacturer will "not interfere" in the McLaren/Honda saga. "This is not our priority at the moment. First, we would like to see Honda and McLaren sorting out their relationship. If you are being considered as the new bride, you want the couple to divorce first, before you jump into the bed."

July 7, 2017 – After an evaluation during practice in Azerbaijan, and Alonso scoring the team's first 2017 points in an attrition-filled race, Honda brings its Spec 3 power unit to Austria. Only Vandoorne runs it in the race after Alonso suffers reliability problems following Friday practice.

July 19, 2017 – Brown outlines that Alonso wants to stay at McLaren, before commenting: "The relationship with Honda has been and remains fine on a personal level, but as we've made it widely known we need a much more competitive power plant and that is the conversation we're having. We're continuing to have conversations with them in how we're going to get ourselves more competitive next year."

July 27, 2017 – Sauber announces that it has cancelled its planned partnership with Honda for 2018, with Honda revealing that "differences in the future directions of both parties" were behind the split.

July 30, 2017 – McLaren has its most competitive run of the year, aided by the reduced importance of power at the Hungaroring, as Alonso takes sixth, with Vandoorne 10th, finally moving the team above Sauber in the championship.

August 2017 – Boullier outlines that McLaren has a September deadline to decide its 2018 power unit partner, while Honda feels that latest improvements have brought it to the level it expected to be at during testing, effectively leaving it half a season behind its development curve.

August 24, 2017 – Honda accelerates development by bringing an updated engine to Belgium – with Alonso running Spec 3.5 and Vandoorne using Spec 3.6, though the Spaniard plays down the upgrades.

August 25, 2017 – Renault boss Cyril Abiteboul confirms speculation that the French company has held discussions with McLaren, but plays down the connection, commenting that "they [McLaren] are not necessarily pushing for anything".

August 26, 2017 – Honda explains that it hoped to bring its Spec 4 power unit to Belgium but "failed", while Vandoorne suffers a problem with Spec 3.6, and reverts to Spec 3.5.

August 31, 2017 – Honda deliberates over whether to run Spec 4 at Monza but settles on trialling Spec 3.7. Meanwhile, Alonso quashes suggestions that he has issued a 'me or Honda' ultimatum to McLaren, labelling such talk as "absolutely not true".

September 1, 2017 – Hasegawa confirms that it is "very clear" Alonso does not want to commit to Honda, unless substantial gains can be made. "If we don't introduce anything, and stay with the current performance, McLaren or Fernando doesn't stay with us – it is very clear," Hasegawa laments.

September 2, 2017 – Amid rain delays at Monza, representatives from Renault, and Red Bull's Christian Horner, are seen entering McLaren's Brand Centre in the paddock.

September 3, 2017 – Brown comments that it is "very likely" Alonso will stay with McLaren for 2018, if it uses Renault power.

September 15, 2017 – After almost a fortnight of rumours, McLaren finally confirms that it will part ways with Honda at the end of the season, moving on to a three-year supply deal with Renault, covering 2018-20.


Answer: No.



http://www.gpupdate.net/en/f1-news/3...-hope-to-hell/
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Old 15 Sep 2017, 16:04 (Ref:3767144)   #844
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Yes it seemed they had finally got there last season, now they've just slid back down again. It's bizarre
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Old 16 Sep 2017, 12:34 (Ref:3767365)   #845
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its a poor descision on many levels (financially, logically, strategically), i think the only way it made sense was emotionally (which just makes it an even poorer descision).

by the way, am i the only thinking that alonso and the team did so many japanese etiquette no-gos, that at the end, it wasnt even mclaren's descision? i mean based on how early this season honda made obvious moves to secure another team (even way before the matsushita/sauber friday test), i have a feeling that their thinking process was to focus on another team regardless, and just wait for mclaren to dig their 80 million dollar grave by ending the deal prematurely.

of course its just my speculation, but thats how it came across to me. im no expert but my father has a business involvement in japan, and he says that openly making a japanese person/product/idea a subject of ridiculousness (something alonso often did, claming that he drives a gp2 car, etc, etc just to make sure that the whole world understand how bloody good he is, and how bad honda is) is a fatal thing to commit in japanese business circles.
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Old 19 Sep 2017, 17:06 (Ref:3768595)   #846
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An interesting take, from Honda motorsport chief Masashi Yamamoto. I liked the cuisine analogy.

http://classic.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/131892
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Old 19 Sep 2017, 17:29 (Ref:3768601)   #847
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Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith View Post
An interesting take, from Honda motorsport chief Masashi Yamamoto. I liked the cuisine analogy.

http://classic.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/131892
I saw this posted and discussed elsewhere. I find this part more interesting than anything else...

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The McLaren Formula 1 team is a "systematic" company that finds it hard to adapt to change, according to Honda motorsport chief Masashi Yamamoto.
So, the public criticism of the entire McLaren/Honda saga has so far been pretty much one sided. With fans, the media and McLaren heaping blame upon Honda. And... they deserve a great deal of blame. But it has been very one sided. Honda has so far both accepted most of that criticism but also talked up the partnership with McLaren. Generally McLaren has been painted as blameless other than the occasional comments about insisting upon a "size zero" solution.

Now that it is effectively over (even if they have to finish out the season together), it seems Honda is maybe a bit more willing to have their say. I have seen it written elsewhere that "maybe" what Honda is speaking to is that McLaren may have had a voice in which of the earlier engine concepts should move forward. And that the concept that was selected (speculation on my part) might have been selected due to it's low weight (maybe part of the size zero solution). And that maybe this was contrary to what Honda had wanted to do. That one of the other concepts may have shown more promise, but would have been a heavier solution or some other issue ended up making it less attractive to McLaren.

Or it might be that McLaren just didn't like whatever forward thinking that maybe Honda was pushing (which might be the solution they tried to use and it failed). As I say... lots of speculation.

Either way, I have no doubt there is MUCH more to the story than what we have heard up to this point. I suspect Honda may continue to be relatively tight lipped on whatever internal disagreement they may have had (or still have) with McLaren. Of course, who wouldn't want to know!

Richard
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Old 19 Sep 2017, 23:50 (Ref:3768661)   #848
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its a poor descision on many levels (financially, logically, strategically), i think the only way it made sense was emotionally (which just makes it an even poorer descision).

by the way, am i the only thinking that alonso and the team did so many japanese etiquette no-gos, that at the end, it wasnt even mclaren's descision? i mean based on how early this season honda made obvious moves to secure another team (even way before the matsushita/sauber friday test), i have a feeling that their thinking process was to focus on another team regardless, and just wait for mclaren to dig their 80 million dollar grave by ending the deal prematurely.

of course its just my speculation, but thats how it came across to me. im no expert but my father has a business involvement in japan, and he says that openly making a japanese person/product/idea a subject of ridiculousness (something alonso often did, claming that he drives a gp2 car, etc, etc just to make sure that the whole world understand how bloody good he is, and how bad honda is) is a fatal thing to commit in japanese business circles.
I agree with what you say here in principle, BUT, I do feel that Honda are guilty of never having come to the dance.

I wonder if they thought that making the McLaren operation dependent on Honda and delivering a sub standard PU into the McLaren operation may have opened up the possibility of acquiring McLaren?

This Honda power unit has just been bad beyond belief, and has to have compromised the McLaren brand and its attractiveness to third parties.

Succeeded in getting rid of Ron for a whole bunch of reasons.

Zak Brown still does not seem to have brought new sponsorship on board.

Tin hat time?
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Old 20 Sep 2017, 02:46 (Ref:3768699)   #849
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Originally Posted by Richard Casto View Post
I saw this posted and discussed elsewhere. I find this part more interesting than anything else...



So, the public criticism of the entire McLaren/Honda saga has so far been pretty much one sided. With fans, the media and McLaren heaping blame upon Honda. And... they deserve a great deal of blame. But it has been very one sided. Honda has so far both accepted most of that criticism but also talked up the partnership with McLaren. Generally McLaren has been painted as blameless other than the occasional comments about insisting upon a "size zero" solution.

Now that it is effectively over (even if they have to finish out the season together), it seems Honda is maybe a bit more willing to have their say. I have seen it written elsewhere that "maybe" what Honda is speaking to is that McLaren may have had a voice in which of the earlier engine concepts should move forward. And that the concept that was selected (speculation on my part) might have been selected due to it's low weight (maybe part of the size zero solution). And that maybe this was contrary to what Honda had wanted to do. That one of the other concepts may have shown more promise, but would have been a heavier solution or some other issue ended up making it less attractive to McLaren.

Or it might be that McLaren just didn't like whatever forward thinking that maybe Honda was pushing (which might be the solution they tried to use and it failed). As I say... lots of speculation.

Either way, I have no doubt there is MUCH more to the story than what we have heard up to this point. I suspect Honda may continue to be relatively tight lipped on whatever internal disagreement they may have had (or still have) with McLaren. Of course, who wouldn't want to know!

Richard
It seems very un-Japanese to take a partner to task like that.
It was a comment at the end of a short article, so we may have missed the nuances of context too.

I wonder if you could take the 'fine French cuisine' labelling as a team that is very demanding, that they have previously dealt with first rate partners before and know what should be expected from them, and when Honda's solutions to failures were not logical to McLaren bods, or were fixes to something there was already a Honda 'fix' supposedly in place for, tempers on the team side would undoubtedly get short.

Toro Rosso may be used to second string supply, as in few developments or pushing the absolute edge of performance because of their paradigms of budget, technical capability/capacity or some other thing. And maybe Honda thinks Toro Rosso are going to let stuff slide...

It will be interesting down the back of the grid next year, the Sauber/Haas/Toro Rosso battle for last place will be a fight to the end!
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Old 20 Sep 2017, 10:35 (Ref:3768759)   #850
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It seems very un-Japanese to take a partner to task like that.
It was a comment at the end of a short article, so we may have missed the nuances of context too.

I wonder if you could take the 'fine French cuisine' labelling as a team that is very demanding, that they have previously dealt with first rate partners before and know what should be expected from them, and when Honda's solutions to failures were not logical to McLaren bods, or were fixes to something there was already a Honda 'fix' supposedly in place for, tempers on the team side would undoubtedly get short.

Toro Rosso may be used to second string supply, as in few developments or pushing the absolute edge of performance because of their paradigms of budget, technical capability/capacity or some other thing. And maybe Honda thinks Toro Rosso are going to let stuff slide...

It will be interesting down the back of the grid next year, the Sauber/Haas/Toro Rosso battle for last place will be a fight to the end!
I have said it before and I'll say it again, McLaren are just as much to blame as Honda......it all went wrong when McLaren pushed Honda into the size-zero axial turbine route.....McLaren have confirmed time and time again they clearly do not grasp modern F1 powertrain requirements.
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