Ralt Rt20-486 F.3000

[STEFANO]

Anyaone can help locating the original driver and team

[E.B]

Well I know that according to the race entry list, RT20 #486 was used in 1988 at the 3rd Birmingham Superprix, (the FIA Formula 3000 race held on the Birmingham Street Circuit, England August 29, 1988) by Pavesi Racing for Fabio Mancini. He failed to qualify.

#15 Fabio Mancini Pavesi Racing Ralt RT20 /486/Ford Cosworth DFV DNQ

That was in 1988 though....

However, by tracing back a couple of years I offer the following thoughts.

I believe the only team (in Europe anyway) using Ralt in 1985 were the works team..... but the works 20's in 1985 were officially RB20's as the B was used for cars running Bridgestone tyres. (Some entry lists refer to them as RT20's but officially the Bridgestone shod works cars had an RB chassis prefix)

1985 Ralt Racing
Mike Thackwell Ralt RB20-Cosworth
John Nielsen Ralt RB20-Cosworth

In 1986 the only European entries using RT 20's are as follows

#4 Ralt Racing
Ralt RT20-Honda
John Nielsen

#5 Ralt Racing
Ralt RT20-Honda
Satoru Nakajima

#5 Ralt Racing
Ralt RT20-Honda
Mike Thackwel

#5 Ralt Racing
Ralt RT20-Honda
James Weaver

#16 Bromley Motorsport with Rial
Ralt RT20-Cosworth
Volker Weidler

#16 Bromley Motorsport
Ralt RT20-Cosworth
Roberto Moreno

#27 Arno International
Ralt RT20-Cosworth
Mario Hytten

#28 Bertram Schäfer Racing
Ralt RT20-Cosworth
Altfried Heger

#40 Pavesi Corse
Ralt RT20-Cosworth
Luis Perez Sala

#41 Pavesi Corse
Ralt RB20-Cosworth
Pierluigi Martini * NOTE RB 20 was original Bridgestone (hence RB prefix) shod car (1985 ex works?)

#41 Pavesi Corse
Ralt RT20-Cosworth
Pierluigi Martini


41 original entries. 20 March 86B's sold. 7 Lola T86/50's sold + 2 works cars. 4 Ralt RT20's sold + 2 works cars.

1987

Pavesi used RT 20's at 3 rounds (Pau, Pergusa and Jarama) with RT21's for the balance, but the RT20's were used oddly not rounds 1,2,3 but at selected races mentioned.

These in the following list are the only RT20's used in the European championship in '87 according to entry lists. The works and others were all onto RT21's by then.

#3 Pavesi Racing
Ralt RT21-Cosworth (Other than Pau, Pergusa and Jarama)
Pierluigi Martini (I)

#3 Pavesi Racing
Ralt RT20-Cosworth (Pau, Pergusa and Jarama)
Pierluigi Martini (I)

#4 Pavesi Racing (Other than Pau, Pergusa and Jarama)
Ralt RT21-Cosworth
Paolo Barilla (I)

#4 Pavesi Racing (Pau, Pergusa and Jarama)
Ralt RT20-Cosworth
Paolo Barilla

#37 Racetech 3000 (Only Imola ... March chassis used mostly)
Ralt RT20-Cosworth
Mario Hytten

#39 Bertram Schäfer Racing (Part time entrant)
Ralt RT20/Ford Cosworth
Altfrid Heger

Given we know that RT20 #486 was with Pavesi in 1988, and that they had owned and used two RT20's in both 1986 and 1987 (the RT20's for a couple of rounds,) it would seem highly likely that Pavesi had owned #486 from new in 1986.

Of course nothing is for sure based on that, but it seems unlikely that a team would buy a used RT20 in 1988 when they already had two that were barely used in 1987, left over from their 1986 campaign..

It should give you a solid base to make some enquiries from. Hope it is of at least some help.

[ghinzani]

If its got traces of Orange paint then its most likely Piero's, if its blue then Sala's. I hadforgot they were still trotting them out a couple years later, I know Piero preffered it to the 87 car also. Boy was he quick when he got out of the RB20 and into the RT20 - then again the RB was designed for Bridgies, not Avons which became the single tyre in 86. Piero and Lusi Sala were so quick that summer.

[E.B]

I dug up another couple of references to the Pavesi RT20's in 1988, other than Mancini at Birmingham:

#15 Pavesi Ralt RT20 - Judd Cathy Muller
#15 Pavesi Ralt RT20 - Mader Cosworth Wladimiro de Tommaso

I have not checked what races that they actually entered, only that they were registered in the championship for 1988 under the #15. The #15 entry of Pavesi was more normally used for Barbazza in an RT22 with either a Judd or Mader Cosworth engine..

#15 Pavesi Ralt RT22 - Judd Fabrizio Barbazza
#15 Pavesi Ralt RT22 - Mader Cosworth Fabrizio Barbazza

Edit: OK just checked the entry lists. As far as the Pavesi #15 goes, Muller DNQ'd round 1 at Jerez, followed by Barbazza who qualified only once (at Silverstone) from the next 3 events . Mancini then DNQ'd 3 times from the next 3 entries. De Tommaso also DNQ'd the #15 for the next three races . Not a good year for the #15!

[ghinzani]

Unfortunately the Ralts got worse by the year - even Eric Bernard no less struggled in the works car. The 86 RT20 is arguably their best F3000 car.

[chunterer]

Cracking info E.B

I thought you weren't much of an F3000 fan?!!

Ghinzani is right about the colours of the Pavesi cars, Piero Martini's was certainly a distinctive orange hue and Sala's a sort of mid blue.

Piero had the same colours on his RT21 and '87 teammate Barilla's was yellow.

The Ralt did indeed go just as well as a privately run car as the works cars did even allowing for the engine differences, certainly at times in '86 and sometimes in '87.

E.B is probably right that chassis 486 was likely a Pavesi car, certainly the first 2 or maybe even 3 would have been works cars, presumably 2 plus a spare or 3 and 4 or 5 would've been the first customer chassis, Pavesi being the main one.

Unfortunately the car was indeed awful in 1988 at a time when it really needed to be strong with the arrival of Reynard who re-set the bar for chassis in the fomula by stunning everyone with a dominant win first time out.

Ralt had so many different drivers in the dark blue cars in '88 just to try and maes sense of it. IIRC, someone went pretty well in one of them later in the year with some experimental bits that has been bolted on, was it Pel or Spence or someone like that?

Also I had forgotten Barbazza was at Silverstone for the 1987 opener in a Ralt having returned from his Indy Lights suceeses. I thought he ran a Genoa March but that was much later on that year.. He did go on to be a bloody good driver, particularly in the Crypton Leyton House in 1990 which was a pain to work properly, and didn't disgrace himself in F1. A driver with bags more promise than he ever got to realise in signel-seaters unfortuately.

[E.B]

Originally Posted by chunterer

Cracking info E.B

I thought you weren't much of an F3000 fan?!!

Well, as I mentioned it was not by choice. I moved to Aus basically the year before it all started, well before the internet era, letalone the broadband era, so reliant on the TV, mags etc, but over here at that time if it didn't have a roof and room for the shopping the racing was never seen on TV. I was a major fan of F2, Atlantic etc, but F3000 became a 'what you dont know of, you dont miss', escaped me.

Now with internet and easy info I have been catching up on what I missed out on so it has more or less become a recent interest. (IIRC on your recommendation..)

Just please dont mention Formula Holden or F4000 whatever they call it now. That was close as I ever got to F3000 in real life.

[E.B]

Originally Posted by chunterer

E.B is probably right that chassis 486 was likely a Pavesi car, certainly the first 2 or maybe even 3 would have been works cars, presumably 2 plus a spare or 3 and 4 or 5 would've been the first customer chassis, Pavesi being the main one.

Along those lines (and I dont know offhand the way the chassis # were created or configured. ie car #RT20-486 might have been an indication of RT20 4/86 ie. the 4th made 1986 build RT20.)
Which, expanding on your theory with 3 for the works '4' would likely be the first car delivered to Pavesi.

Just checked and both of the 86 Pavesi RT20's had a race debut on the same day.... at the 1986 BRDC International Trophy at Silverstone on April 13th, with Luis Pérez-Sala in #40 and Pierluigi Martiniin #41.

Just a thought.,

[ghinzani]

Originally Posted by E.B

Just checked and both of the 86 Pavesi RT20's had a race debut on the same day.... at the 1986 BRDC International Trophy at Silverstone on April 13th, with Luis Pérez-Sala in #40 and Pierluigi Martiniin #41.

Just a thought.,

Nah Piero raced an RB20 from 85 in the first round I am sure. Possibly the round after too.

[ghinzani]

Actually if there were 3 works cars then the 4th would have been Salas.

[E.B]

Originally Posted by ghinzani

Nah Piero raced an RB20 from 85 in the first round I am sure. Possibly the round after too.

In 1985 Pierluigi Martini did not appear in F3000 (at European Championship level anyway). During 1985 he was pretty busy in F1, having a full season of that with Minardi, having had a run with Toleman in F1 at Monza in 1984, a year he spent otherwise mainly in WSC driving various Lancia LC-2's in the FIA World Sports Car Championship. (Jolly Club, Martini Racing, and BP Résidences Malardeau at the LM24hr.

His first ever F3000 Euro race was (according to the records) as mentioned, in the Pavesi #41 Ralt RT20 at the Silverstone International Trophy in April 1986.

Re the RT/RB 20, in 1985 only the 2 works entries (#1 & #2) ever appeared on the official results for the year.

In fact the following are the results of every RB/RT 20 that appeared in the 1985 Championship / Race results.


1) March 24, 1985
37th BRDC International Trophy
Silverstone
FIA Formula 3000 race

Fin Grid Driver # Owner Car Laps Status Laps

1 2 Mike Thackwell 1 Team Ralt Ralt RB20/Ford Cosworth DFV
2 5 John Nielsen 2 Team Ralt Ralt RB20/Ford Cosworth DFV


2) April 8, 1985
Jochen Rindt Trophy
Thruxton Circuit
FIA Formula 3000 race


2 1 Mike Thackwell 1 Team Ralt Ralt RB20/Ford Cosworth DFV
17 8 John Nielsen 2 Team Ralt Ralt RB20/Ford Cosworth DFV 47 not classified


3) April 21, 1985
Grande Premio de Portugal Support
Autódromo do Estoril
FIA Formula 3000

1 2 John Nielsen 2 Team Ralt Ralt RB20/Ford Cosworth DFV
12 1 Mike Thackwell 1 Team Ralt Ralt RB20/Ford Cosworth DFV 40 not classified


4) May 12, 1985
38o Gran Premio di Roma
Autodromo Vallelunga,
FIA Formula 3000

2 3 John Nielsen 2 Team Ralt Ralt RB20/Ford Cosworth DFV
14 1 Mike Thackwell 1 Team Ralt Ralt RB20/Ford Cosworth DFV 36 accident


5) May 27, 1985
Grand Prix de Pau
Circuit de Pau, Pau, France
FIA Formula 3000

9 5 John Nielsen 2 Team Ralt Ralt RB20/Ford Cosworth DFV 9 suspension
11 2 Mike Thackwell 1 Team Ralt Ralt RB20/Ford Cosworth DFV 2 accident


6)June 2, 1985
1e Grand Prix F3000 de Belgique
Circuit National de Spa-Francorchamps, Belgium
FIA Formula 3000

1 3 Mike Thackwell 1 Team Ralt Ralt RB20/Ford Cosworth DFV
7 8 John Nielsen 2 Team Ralt Ralt RB20/Ford Cosworth DFV 25 engine


7) June 30, 1985
1e Grand Prix F3000 de Dijon
Circuit de Dijon-Prenois, Dijon, France
FIA Formula 3000

2 2 Mike Thackwell 1 Team Ralt Ralt RB20/Ford Cosworth DFV
3 1 John Nielsen 2 Team Ralt Ralt RB20/Ford Cosworth DFV

8) July 28, 1985
23o Gran Premio dell Mediterraneo
Autodromo di Pergusa, Sicilia, Italy
FIA Formula 3000

1 1 Mike Thackwell 1 Team Ralt Ralt RB20/Ford Cosworth DFV
11 8 John Nielsen 2 Team Ralt Ralt RB20/Ford Cosworth DFV 17 overheating


9) August 17, 1985
Grosser Preis F3000 von Österreich
Österreichring, Spielberg, Austria
FIA Formula 3000

2 6 John Nielsen 2 Team Ralt Ralt RB20/Ford Cosworth DFV
9 5 Mike Thackwell 1 Team Ralt Ralt RB20/Ford Cosworth DFV


10) August 24, 1985
1e Grote Prijs F3000 van Nederland
Circuit Park Zandvoort, Zandvoort, Netherlands
FIA Formula 3000

2 6 Mike Thackwell 1 Team Ralt Ralt RB20/Ford Cosworth DFV
4 2 John Nielsen 2 Team Ralt Ralt RB20/Ford Cosworth DFV


11) September 22, 1985
Donington Park, Castle Donington
FIA Formula 3000

13 2 John Nielsen 2 Team Ralt Ralt RB20/Ford Cosworth DFV
20 1 Mike Thackwell 1 Team Ralt Ralt RB20/Ford Cosworth DFV 0 accident

[Tourer]

Originally Posted by ghinzani

Unfortunately the Ralts got worse by the year - even Eric Bernard no less struggled in the works car. The 86 RT20 is arguably their best F3000 car.

The 87 factory team RT21s were fast but some silly mistakes like running Moreno out of fuel in two races hurt the results (but the customer teams didn't seem to do as well).

For sure, the 88 cars struggled in comparison to the Reynards. Ron seemed to be at his best when he could start out with something about right and then work on the details through testing and racing. Of course, with a Carbon tub he wasn't able to make big changes to suspension pickups etc and the carbon cars just didn't seem to quite have that "it".

[E.B]

Ron was always, it seemed, more conservative than other designers, even back in his F1 days designing the Brabhams. I think Brabham were the last team to go to a full monocoque, and even then, when they did with the BT33, it was near on 10 years after Chapman introduced the concept to F1. Tauranac always said that a good tube chassis was as stiff as a monocoque and done properly was lighter.

Again with carbon fibre, Brabham, (by then Gordon Murray run rather than Tauranac) were the last to go the full carbon-fibre tub (IIRC the 1985 BT55 was the first full C-F Brabham tub). Not relevant to Ralt of course.

However, returning focus to Ralt, they were also a late convert to C-F for the tubs, partially as a result of ease of repair of aluminium tubs over C-F varieties. (Remember Ralt's core business was building of customer cars, so ease of maintenance, repair costs and other customer team related influences were major design considerations.) F1 was into C-F tubs back in 1981, and by 1985 even Brabham were using them. It was the chassis / tub material of choice for most top open wheeler categories well before Tauranac converted.

The first Ralt full C-F tub was in fact the RT22 car for 1988. (It was ironically also the last Ralt fully designed by Ron as the boss at Ralt, as he sold the business to March in 1998. The RT23 was the initial March built Ralt after the take over, although the RT23 was clearly still partially inspired by Ron. I think Ron was still retained for a while in some sort of consultancy or employment, but as far as design went March had the services of a bloke called Adrian Newey back then.

[davyboy]

I wonder is this the car that started the thread above ?

[PeterMorley]

According to the Black Books:
RT20-4-86
Luciano Pavesi Racing

1986
Driven by Luis Sala
1st place in Pergusa
1st place in Birmingham

1987
Paolo Barilla drove RT20 86-4 at Pau, Pergusa, Jarama
Presumably the same car with the chassis number recorded differently.

1988
Fabio Mancini drove RT20 86-4 at Brands Hatch & Birmingham
Wladimiro de Tomaso at Le Mans & Zolder

[nistfan]

Ralt RT20 Chassis Update
Just reading an old Autosport (June 26 1986) with a Track Test by Tiff Needell.
He confirms the Following
Ralt RT20-1 Nakajima, Thackwell at Pau, Weaver at Spa
Ralt RT20-2 Nielson,
Ralt RT20-3 Spare, Would need to Check Race Reports to see if this was used.
Ralt RT20-4 Luis Sala
Ralt RT20-5 Weidler
Ralt RT20-6 Heger
Ralt RT20-7 Martini

[CRD]

Hi, we are currently restoring an RT20 here in Melbourne that is a Formula Holden. The Australian log book and original records from Graham Watson (Ralt Australia) show the car's chassis number as 862. There is no ID plate or any stampings on the tub to confirm this. I contacted Ralt in UK attempting to find out which F3000 it was and gave them the 862 number, Ralt came back saying that 862 is a RT33 F3 car so dead end there.
Some old paperwork that we located indicate that it may be the Pier Luigi Martini - Pavesi Racing RT20.
Could the correct number be 286 ???
Any help would be appreciated.
Thanks
Rohan

[chunterer]

Didn't Rohan Onslow pedal an ex Pavesi RT20 back in the day?

[CRD]

Yes Rohan Oslow did run an RT20 in 1989 Australian Drivers' Championship, it was a Pavesi car that was driven by Barilla in 1987 F3000 championship.
Drew Price then ran the car in 1990 A.D.C
This is not the car we are restoring.

[Racenut]

Whats some of the history that Graham provided? might help to rattle some old brain cells.

[CRD]

Sadly Graham passed away in 2009, I have limited documentation from when it was originally brought to Australia in 1989. It doesn't really tell where the car came from other than the chassis number is 862, which appears to be incorrect in the sense that RALT UK see the number 862 belonging to an RT33 F3 car.

[Racenut]

Do you have any history in Oz? when/who raced it? There were three in 89, Onslow, Crompton (both Pavesi cars) and Roger Martin which from memory ran with Thalgo colours at one stage.

[CRD]

It's the car that Roger Martin drove at AGP in 1989 and then ran the full series in 1990.
In 1991 it only did a couple of rounds driven by Brian Sampson.
In 1992 it was run by the Richmond Tafe College and driven by Ron Barnacle.
Never in Thalgo colours and it has not run since.
The car is still owned by the original owner who had it brought to Australia by Graham Watson in 1989.
I am able to fully trace all the history in Australia as a Formula Holden/Brabham
it's just the European part of the puzzle that I'm wanting to establish for the owner.
Hopefully it will be running later this year in historic racing in its Formula Holden guise.

[CRD]

Originally Posted by Racenut

Do you have any history in Oz? when/who raced it? There were three in 89, Onslow, Crompton (both Pavesi cars) and Roger Martin which from memory ran with Thalgo colours at one stage.

According to a Wheels Magazine story written by Crompton in 1989 / 1990, his car, which was owned by Peter Boylan is;
"It's a Formula 3000 chassis - a 1986 model Ralt RT-20 ex-works car. Ron Tauranac and his boys from Weybridge built the car as a spare for Satoru Nakajima. It was used on only three occasions, and sat around gathering dust for the majority of the season."
he goes on to say;
"In 1987 the car had a brief assignment as a hillclimb weapon" Presumably this was in Uk or Europe before coming to Australia.

So Crompton's car is not a Pavesi car.

[ghinzani]

EB sadly that's not correct what you are saying about Piero. I'm absolutely sure he raced a RB20 for the first four rounds of 86 as his RT wasn't ready, which arguably cost him the title.
To confirm I've asked Pavesi mechanic Massimo Pollini here.on the F3000 group, although he's said it elsewhere previously.

https://m.facebook.com/groups/fthreethousand/permalink/3301796619885831/

Originally Posted by E.B

In 1985 Pierluigi Martini did not appear in F3000 (at European Championship level anyway). During 1985 he was pretty busy in F1, having a full season of that with Minardi, having had a run with Toleman in F1 at Monza in 1984, a year he spent otherwise mainly in WSC driving various Lancia LC-2's in the FIA World Sports Car Championship. (Jolly Club, Martini Racing, and BP Résidences Malardeau at the LM24hr.

His first ever F3000 Euro race was (according to the records) as mentioned, in the Pavesi #41 Ralt RT20 at the Silverstone International Trophy in April 1986.

Re the RT/RB 20, in 1985 only the 2 works entries (#1 & #2) ever appeared on the official results for the year.

In fact the following are the results of every RB/RT 20 that appeared in the 1985 Championship / Race results.


1) March 24, 1985
37th BRDC International Trophy
Silverstone
FIA Formula 3000 race

Fin Grid Driver # Owner Car Laps Status Laps

1 2 Mike Thackwell 1 Team Ralt Ralt RB20/Ford Cosworth DFV
2 5 John Nielsen 2 Team Ralt Ralt RB20/Ford Cosworth DFV


2) April 8, 1985
Jochen Rindt Trophy
Thruxton Circuit
FIA Formula 3000 race


2 1 Mike Thackwell 1 Team Ralt Ralt RB20/Ford Cosworth DFV
17 8 John Nielsen 2 Team Ralt Ralt RB20/Ford Cosworth DFV 47 not classified


3) April 21, 1985
Grande Premio de Portugal Support
Autódromo do Estoril
FIA Formula 3000

1 2 John Nielsen 2 Team Ralt Ralt RB20/Ford Cosworth DFV
12 1 Mike Thackwell 1 Team Ralt Ralt RB20/Ford Cosworth DFV 40 not classified


4) May 12, 1985
38o Gran Premio di Roma
Autodromo Vallelunga,
FIA Formula 3000

2 3 John Nielsen 2 Team Ralt Ralt RB20/Ford Cosworth DFV
14 1 Mike Thackwell 1 Team Ralt Ralt RB20/Ford Cosworth DFV 36 accident


5) May 27, 1985
Grand Prix de Pau
Circuit de Pau, Pau, France
FIA Formula 3000

9 5 John Nielsen 2 Team Ralt Ralt RB20/Ford Cosworth DFV 9 suspension
11 2 Mike Thackwell 1 Team Ralt Ralt RB20/Ford Cosworth DFV 2 accident


6)June 2, 1985
1e Grand Prix F3000 de Belgique
Circuit National de Spa-Francorchamps, Belgium
FIA Formula 3000

1 3 Mike Thackwell 1 Team Ralt Ralt RB20/Ford Cosworth DFV
7 8 John Nielsen 2 Team Ralt Ralt RB20/Ford Cosworth DFV 25 engine


7) June 30, 1985
1e Grand Prix F3000 de Dijon
Circuit de Dijon-Prenois, Dijon, France
FIA Formula 3000

2 2 Mike Thackwell 1 Team Ralt Ralt RB20/Ford Cosworth DFV
3 1 John Nielsen 2 Team Ralt Ralt RB20/Ford Cosworth DFV

8) July 28, 1985
23o Gran Premio dell Mediterraneo
Autodromo di Pergusa, Sicilia, Italy
FIA Formula 3000

1 1 Mike Thackwell 1 Team Ralt Ralt RB20/Ford Cosworth DFV
11 8 John Nielsen 2 Team Ralt Ralt RB20/Ford Cosworth DFV 17 overheating


9) August 17, 1985
Grosser Preis F3000 von Österreich
Österreichring, Spielberg, Austria
FIA Formula 3000

2 6 John Nielsen 2 Team Ralt Ralt RB20/Ford Cosworth DFV
9 5 Mike Thackwell 1 Team Ralt Ralt RB20/Ford Cosworth DFV


10) August 24, 1985
1e Grote Prijs F3000 van Nederland
Circuit Park Zandvoort, Zandvoort, Netherlands
FIA Formula 3000

2 6 Mike Thackwell 1 Team Ralt Ralt RB20/Ford Cosworth DFV
4 2 John Nielsen 2 Team Ralt Ralt RB20/Ford Cosworth DFV


11) September 22, 1985
Donington Park, Castle Donington
FIA Formula 3000

13 2 John Nielsen 2 Team Ralt Ralt RB20/Ford Cosworth DFV
20 1 Mike Thackwell 1 Team Ralt Ralt RB20/Ford Cosworth DFV 0 accident