[Rumours] McLaren and Honda Back Again?

[JeremySmith]

Originally Posted by Aysedasi

If only....

What a gorgeous looking car...

[GTRMagic]

Originally Posted by Marbot

I agree that Hydrogen powered road cars are a very long way off. Not only is the technology very expensive, but the infrastructure required is going to be extremely costly and most Hydrogen is refined from fossil fuels in the first place. And having Hydrogen in a very large fuel tank at 5,000 PSI is a little bit off putting to say the least!

James May tested a road version of a Honda Hydrogen powered Clarity Here a couple of years ago... its not that far away as a concept... more that paradigm shifts and thought leadership are required...

Something McLaren is very good at

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by GTRMagic

James May tested a road version of a Honda Hydrogen powered Clarity Here a couple of years ago... its not that far away as a concept... more that paradigm shifts and thought leadership are required...

To counter that, and to show why no one else has particularly gone down the Hydrogen route.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hYYR_wG-x_E

Originally Posted by GTRMagic

Something McLaren is very good at

They are also very good at 'expensive', which isn't really getting away from what Honda have done.

[AussieTimmeh]

Like all 'great' Formula1 returns, I look forward to be thoroughly disappointed with the on-track results, although I do give this combination the highest chance of succeeding.

[Paradise City]

I don't rate the Williams Renault tie up too highly. Williams seems like an afterthought for Renault and Williams is suffering from too many internal issues to have too much confidence in them. I do rate this link up highly if it comes to pass though. McLaren technical infrastructure is space-age, Honda itself was on the verge of success before they pulled out. I don't see any reason why McLaren won't hit the track running should they give this the go-ahead. With Merc concentrating on Merc, this ticks all the boxes.

[Marbot]

The thing to remember is that they are not going to be competing within regulations that mean that the petrol engine part of the equation is going to make all the difference. The main area of success will come from their ability to have a decent electrical set up, which puts them a long way behind Mercedes, Ferrari, Renault, etc.

But if anyone can do it, Honda can.

[Flat12-Aircool]

Originally Posted by chunterer

Maybe it's more a case of McLaren getting Honda to pay for Mclaren's own engine which has been in the offing for the last couple of years....

In a way it would be a bit like the Tag/Porsche deal that McLaren 'arranged'

I think this is the most likely scenario, obviously Honda would have some input and expertise to bring on board but this essentially would be a re-badged McLaren engine.

[Marbot]

Not sure that Honda would want to put a name on someone else's F1 engine? Least of all, McLaren's first attempt at one!

It will be a Honda engine from R&D forwards, any other way is just not their style. More likely that McLaren would put their name on a Honda engine.

McLaren don't really 'do' engines, I have noticed. Ricardo has had a lot to do with the one in the MP4-C12, which is actually based on a Nissan design!

[JamesH]

Originally Posted by Marbot

Well, there are several electric cars coming on to the UK market now, and several petrol/diesel engined range extended electric vehicles for those who know that an 100 mile range is not enough (95% of all car journeys in the UK are of less than 50 miles). All of them are considered to be "disruptive technology". Having recently driven a Vauxhall Ampere, I would say that the petrol/diesel engine is doomed to the life of a 'Donkey engine' at the very best.

I agree that Hydrogen powered road cars are a very long way off. Not only is the technology very expensive, but the infrastructure required is going to be extremely costly and most Hydrogen is refined from fossil fuels in the first place. And having Hydrogen in a very large fuel tank at 5,000 PSI is a little bit off putting to say the least!

I think battery tech is likely to improve to a point that hydrogen (unless they solve their own storage problems) will be a non-starter. Very recent research has bumped li-ion battery charges to 10 times faster, and 10 times today's capacity. Main problem with those would be supplying enough power to the charging stations to charge up more than one car at a time! A normal three -phase ain't going to cut it. Both H2 and leccy have their own problems with infrastructure, I just think leccy will have less.

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by JamesH

Main problem with those would be supplying enough power to the charging stations to charge up more than one car at a time!

There will be places where the battery can be exchanged for a fully charged battery rather than having to be charged by the owner of the vehicle. The 'better place' as it's known.

Nissan are currently constructing a £210 million battery plant in Sunderland, so it's seems that at least they are fully committed to electric vehicles.

Hydrogen powered cars (mainly the materials for the very small fuel cell) are just too damn expensive to make, and they will still require a massive upgrade in infrastructure to make them work. Most of the infrastructure for electric cars is already there.

There also seems little point in using electricity to make Hydrogen when that electricity can be put straight into a battery.

But anyway, that's another story.

Still no news on a Honda comeback.

[JamesH]

Originally Posted by Marbot

There will be places where the battery can be exchanged for a fully charged battery rather than having to be charged by the owner of the vehicle. The 'better place' as it's known.

Nissan are currently constructing a £210 million battery plant in Sunderland, so it's seems that at least they are fully committed to electric vehicles.

Hydrogen powered cars (mainly the materials for the very small fuel cell) are just too damn expensive to make, and they will still require a massive upgrade in infrastructure to make them work. Most of the infrastructure for electric cars is already there.

There also seems little point in using electricity to make Hydrogen when that electricity can be put straight into a battery.

But anyway, that's another story.

Still no news on a Honda comeback.

Should we start a "Marbot and JamesH extol the virtues of electric vehicles on and off the track" thread? With aero supplement?

[chunterer]

Originally Posted by Marbot

Not sure that Honda would want to put a name on someone else's F1 engine? Least of all, McLaren's first attempt at one!

It will be a Honda engine from R&D forwards, any other way is just not their style. More likely that McLaren would put their name on a Honda engine.

McLaren don't really 'do' engines, I have noticed. Ricardo has had a lot to do with the one in the MP4-C12, which is actually based on a Nissan design!

Hmm yes, I have thought of that, however I cannot ignore that in the last couple of years senior level, very experienced and very good F1 engineers have moved from HPE (or Ilmor, and god knows where else) to Surrey (not to Ricardo).

I'm fairly sure that they ain't gone there just to do engines for road cars.

[herowassenna]

Originally Posted by Paradise City

Honda itself was on the verge of success before they pulled out.

Hmm, I disagree, the chassis that ended up as the Brawn was definitely world class, double diffuser or not. But by that 1st test in Barcelona, they had Mercedes power, not Honda.
From what I remember of 2008, they were unreliable and heavy units without being able to match the best engine, ie Mercedes.

It's all hypothetical, but would the Honda chassis have won the championships with a Honda engine?

[Bononi]

Originally Posted by JamesH

Should we start a "Marbot and JamesH extol the virtues of electric vehicles on and off the track" thread? With aero supplement?

Take the names out of the title and you can start whatever you like.

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by chunterer

I'm fairly sure that they ain't gone there just to do engines for road cars.

Maybe so. But there's no way that McLaren are going to get Honda to stump up the cash for an engine that's not theirs. If McLaren build an F1 engine it will be a McLaren F1 engine and not a Honda F1 engine.

I think that it's turning into a bit of a non-story, tbh.

[Wims]

Originally Posted by Paradise City

... McLaren technical infrastructure is space-age...

Williams' technical infrastructure is also very much "space-age"

[Marbot]

NASA has 'space-age' technology, but one would think that they would employ the services of someone like General Motors if they wanted an internal combustion engine building. NASA don't do petrol engines.

[Bononi]

Maybe it's aged-space...

[fourWheelDrift]

Originally Posted by Marbot

NASA has 'space-age' technology, but one would think that they would employ the services of someone like General Motors if they wanted an internal combustion engine building. NASA don't do petrol engines.

But if they did just think how expensive they'd be

[Flat12-Aircool]

Originally Posted by Marbot

Not sure that Honda would want to put a name on someone else's F1 engine? Least of all, McLaren's first attempt at one!

It will be a Honda engine from R&D forwards, any other way is just not their style. More likely that McLaren would put their name on a Honda engine.

McLaren don't really 'do' engines, I have noticed. Ricardo has had a lot to do with the one in the MP4-C12, which is actually based on a Nissan design!

The design of the V6 will already be fairly well advanced, based partly on knowledge of today's V8's. I imagine it's the implementation of the Turbo's that would require the most creative thinking. That said, there would still be scope for Honda to make their mark on the finished design.

But given the history of the two companies, it makes perfect commercial reality at this stage for McLaren to effectively let Honda sponsor their engine in order to help finance the F1 side of their business.

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by Flat12-Aircool

But given the history of the two companies, it makes perfect commercial reality at this stage for McLaren to effectively let Honda sponsor their engine in order to help finance the F1 side of their business.

The history of McLaren is to use someone else's engine to power their cars. The history of Honda has always been one of using their own engines with their name or some other name on them. It's what they do. No way will we ever see Honda put their name on a McLaren engine.

If Honda do come back into F1, it will be because the technical challenge suits them.

http://www.grandprix.com/ns/ns23756.html

[GTRMagic]

Originally Posted by Marbot

The history of McLaren is to use someone else's engine to power their cars.

Or in the case of the TAG-Porsche, to find someone out of their equity pool willing to invest in a bespoke customer powerplant for them to use exclusively.

Its not impossible for Honda to do the same for McLaren for 2014, but as ever, who will pay?

[Paradise City]

I expect the Hondas to be free. With rules stability it shouldn't be cost-prohibitive for the 2nd year on.

It'd be very risky for McLaren to do an in-house program. Yes, they've been talking about it for years but to actually do it would be a big very unMcLaren like gamble.

[chunterer]

Originally Posted by Paradise City

I expect the Hondas to be free. With rules stability it shouldn't be cost-prohibitive for the 2nd year on.

It'd be very risky for McLaren to do an in-house program. Yes, they've been talking about it for years but to actually do it would be a big very unMcLaren like gamble.

I wouldn't be surprised if they're already well beyond the drawing board with their own powerplant.

Then again it's one thing to design an engine, you still need a lot of time and money to make it any good.

Cue outside partnerships and money.

McLaren would surely sell their engine to the Honda board as a co-production with and Honda would get something in return for their production cars etc.

[Bononi]

Anyway, if it really has to happen and aims to be sucessful, it must begin at least a couple of years before the package hit the track.