[Team] Red Bull,STR,Ferrari and Sauber leave FOTA

[gttouring]

i won't say I am dim but from the article above
"With no auditing of the numbers, it is hard to police and, some say, easy to find loopholes which may not break the rules but do break the spirit of them - such as maximising wind tunnel use then farming out further work to other tunnels under the sub-contractor budget (something Ferrari admitted to doing with Toyota's Cologne facility).
just what are they getting on about here? how do budgets stay under limit if there is spending in anyway shape or form to a facitlity or a sub-contractor.
the Team has to pay up anyway. some one help me under stand how they got away with this-not in spirit of the rules? looks like blatant ignoring.
as i understood here, they paid a set amount of money within budget and hired T's tunnel under another budget? but if not the team's finances who's? corporate ferrari?

[wolfhound]

I see Fota are due to meet on Tuesday.
I wonder whhat type of discussion that will end up as kiss and make up or will final divorce papers be issued?

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/96662

[Paradise City]

I think they all dived into the Resource Reduction thingy in good faith but as time went by and the pressures of competition imposed itself, the accounting devices started to move in, paranoia flourished and faith was lost. I think the FOTA disintegration represents a marked deterioration in the relationship between the teams and this cannot but have a knock-on effect on that resource reduction agreement. Particularly the way Ferrari is pushing for more testing.

[Bononi]

Originally Posted by Marbot

I can't find anything on that, but it does look like Ferrari and RedBull are still committed to it.

Originally Posted by raymondu999

From what I gather from several colleagues in the paddock; the RRA is a legal contract that stands true until 2017. It's not tied to FOTA membership; so Red Bull and Ferrari are still bound to the RRA

I talked to Luca just a few hours ago and he confirmed that Ferrari is committed to RRA. I'm fowarding his e-mail to you Marbot, FYEO.

[henners88]

Originally Posted by Bononi

I talked to Luca just a few hours ago and he confirmed that Ferrari is committed to RRA. I'm fowarding his e-mail to you Marbot, FYEO.

Thats not what he said to me via text!
Ya can't trust the little blighter.

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by Bononi

I'm fowarding his e-mail to you Marbot, FYEO.

Will this message self destruct in 5 seconds?

I'll be glad to receive it.

[Bononi]

Originally Posted by Marbot

Will this message self destruct in 5 seconds?

I'll be glad to receive it.

Nah, you know Luca !

[Richard C]

Is the individual positions of the teams regarding RRA relatively public knowledge? Based upon reading this thread I am assuming that while it is in place until 2017, a number of teams wish to adjust/tweak the current agreement. What exactly are the sticking point with regards to RRA that caused Ferrari and Red Bull to throw up their hands and walk away from FOTA?

Richard

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by Richard Casto

Is the individual positions of the teams regarding RRA relatively public knowledge? Based upon reading this thread I am assuming that while it is in place until 2017, a number of teams wish to adjust/tweak the current agreement. What exactly are the sticking point with regards to RRA that caused Ferrari and Red Bull to throw up their hands and walk away from FOTA?

Richard

HRT are not in FOTA because they think that FOTA doesn't look after the smaller teams, anyway. Ferrari don't want people poking their noses into its financial business, neither does Red Bull. There are also issues with what things should be included in the RRA (engine costs, etc) So they are wanting to save costs in a way that works best for them. Some say that the RRA agreement is in place until 2017 and some say that it's in place until 2012, depending on which version you have read.

[Bononi]

Originally Posted by Richard Casto

Is the individual positions of the teams regarding RRA relatively public knowledge? Based upon reading this thread I am assuming that while it is in place until 2017, a number of teams wish to adjust/tweak the current agreement. What exactly are the sticking point with regards to RRA that caused Ferrari and Red Bull to throw up their hands and walk away from FOTA?

Richard

Originally Posted by Marbot

HRT are not in FOTA because they think that FOTA doesn't look after the smaller teams, anyway. Ferrari don't want people poking their noses into its financial business, neither does Red Bull. There are also issues with what things should be included in the RRA (engine costs, etc) So they are wanting to save costs in a way that works best for them. Some say that the RRA agreement is in place until 2017 and some say that it's in place until 2012, depending on which version you have read.

That means that we'll never know what exactly are the points regarding RRA that caused Ferrari and RBR leaving FOTA

[Pingguest]

To me it sounds like the RRA is not practical: for some the limits are too low, some some to high. Imagine what a mess the budget limit would had cost.

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by Pingguest

To me it sounds like the RRA is not practical: for some the limits are too low, some some to high. Imagine what a mess the budget limit would had cost.

Costs are down from an eye watering $300 million per season to a much more reasonable $150-200 million...not. The original budget cap might have made them have to 'think' a little more. If you can't put two cars on a track every other weekend for £40 million per season, then there's something very wrong somewhere if it's entertainment that's all you're after.

[Marbot]

Sauber leaves FOTA with STR to follow. They have whose engines?

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/96685

Can someone change the thread title and be prepared to change it a few more times?

[Bononi]

Ok, done !

[phoenix]

Originally Posted by Marbot

Sauber leaves FOTA with STR to follow. They have whose engines?

Having failed to master the details of aero, perhaps the long standing Ferrari sentiment that "Engine power is everything" is behind this? And of course they will want their V6 to be superior to any German or French version....

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by phoenix

Having failed to master the details of aero, perhaps the long standing Ferrari sentiment that "Engine power is everything" is behind this? And of course they will want their V6 to be superior to any German or French version....

You beat me to it.

[gttouring]

So Ferrari will have 6 lumps to do the testing. Well well well...

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by Marbot

Can someone change the thread title and be prepared to change it a few more times?

May I suggest 'Multiple teams leave FOTA'?

[Pingguest]

Originally Posted by Marbot

Costs are down from an eye watering $300 million per season to a much more reasonable $150-200 million...not. The original budget cap might have made them have to 'think' a little more. If you can't put two cars on a track every other weekend for £40 million per season, then there's something very wrong somewhere if it's entertainment that's all you're after.

For teams like Ferrari it required a massive reorganization and hence resources to meet the limitations of the Resource Restriction Agreement. A more stringent resource reduction would require even more resources to be used on something else than making two cars go faster around the track.
For teams like HRT the limitations set by the Resource Restriction Agreement are meaningless, because in the next coming years they can only dream of getting nearby those limitations. No wonder they chose not to become a FOTA-member and getting bound to an agreement that would formalize their disadvantage!

The FOTA is a collaboration of teams and resulted in what is know as the Resource Restriction Agreement. Two years ago the association even planned to start using common components, such as telemetry systems, by 2014.
This kind of agreements should be fostered and fully accepted, as teams get the possibility to effectively reduce costs and/or become more competitive much more cost-efficiently. Any regulation or comparable legally binding agreement with the FIA among the parties - such as the customer chassis being banned due to a clause in the Concorde Agreement - should be repealed or terminated. The positive of this kind of regulations is that teams are not forced to conform and are able to do what they think is right for them.

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by Pingguest

For teams like Ferrari it required a massive reorganization and hence resources to meet the limitations of the Resource Restriction Agreement. A more stringent resource reduction would require even more resources to be used on something else than making two cars go faster around the track.
For teams like HRT the limitations set by the Resource Restriction Agreement are meaningless, because in the next coming years they can only dream of getting nearby those limitations. No wonder they chose not to become a FOTA-member and getting bound to an agreement that would formalize their disadvantage!

Agreed.

Originally Posted by Pingguest

The FOTA is a collaboration of teams and resulted in what is know as the Resource Restriction Agreement. Two years ago the association even planned to start using common components, such as telemetry systems, by 2014.
This kind of agreements should be fostered and fully accepted, as teams get the possibility to effectively reduce costs and/or become more competitive much more cost-efficiently. Any regulation or comparable legally binding agreement with the FIA among the parties - such as the customer chassis being banned due to a clause in the Concorde Agreement - should be repealed or terminated. The positive of this kind of regulations is that teams are not forced to conform and are able to do what they think is right for them.

Agreed. But teams doing what they think is right for them isn't necessarily to the good of F1.

[Pingguest]

Originally Posted by Marbot

Agreed.



Agreed. But teams doing what they think is right for them isn't necessarily to the good of F1.

And what is good for Formula 1 in the shorter term, is not necessarily good for one particular team and hence even so for the sports in the longer term.

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by Pingguest

And what is good for Formula 1 in the shorter term, is not necessarily good for one particular team and hence even so for the sports in the longer term.

At the moment it's difficult for any team to be thinking too far into the future.

[Teretonga]

Originally Posted by Marbot

At the moment it's difficult for any team to be thinking too far into the future.

True.
Because there may not be a future for F1, and if the present teams continue to act selfishly and only in their own immediate interests then its demise (F1's) will surely be hastened...

[Bononi]

Originally Posted by Teretonga

True.
Because there may not be a future for F1, and if the present teams continue to act selfishly and only in their own immediate interests then its demise (F1's) will surely be hastened...

Maybe they need a reality check and that's the only way to go over it.

[Pingguest]

Originally Posted by Marbot

At the moment it's difficult for any team to be thinking too far into the future.

I think Ferrari is close to doing that.