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Old 22 Feb 2017, 17:27 (Ref:3714059)   #151
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Ugh, these fins need to go.

They banned the 1997-1998 X-Wings based on looks didn't they?
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Old 22 Feb 2017, 17:46 (Ref:3714064)   #152
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Originally Posted by Sodemo View Post
Ugh, these fins need to go.

They banned the 1997-1998 X-Wings based on looks didn't they?
I think they had a safety issue as well, as Herbert had one of his catch on the air hose rigging at a race and rip it off. Argentina I think.
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Old 22 Feb 2017, 18:32 (Ref:3714071)   #153
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Not being argumentative here, but just discussing.
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The duck look and the sudden transition are
inherently linked though. You wouldn't get this low flat nose without the sudden downward transition.
Actually I don't think so. While the crash structure of the monocoque is pretty strictly defined (including the boxy front section), nothing precludes the teams from wrapping in a smoother aero body. They just want it slim and as high as they can get, so they don't wrap it. That drives the flat surface going down toward the nose. The nose could be narrow, but they keep it wide (IMHO) to spread the wing pylons apart to both make it easier to keep it strong and light, plus use them as turning vanes.

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Whilst the regulations may not specifically state you have to have the chassis high, if that is the best solution (and engineers cannot unlearn things), then that is what they are going to do, and the regulations should be written to take this into account.
What would you propose a higher nose? See comments below about why they lowered the nose.

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If the best solution is utilising the maximum height available for the chassis, the lower the maximum height available for the chassis.
A rule that doesn't exist today and should they be creating more restrictions to define how the car should look or less?

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In conjunction with that, raise the minimum height of the nose and suddenly you'll have no massive transition. You could even match the maximum and minimum heights and make sure the steps don't reappear.
The cars had a VERY high noses circa 2011 which was identified as a safety issue (I think cockpit intrusion risk). Then some 2012 teams used older chassis with lower noses (start of the ugly noses), then they added the modesty cover in 2013, then in 2014 more changes to try to require a smoother transition (actually I question how the 2017 Force India fits that regulation, but I assume it does).

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The regulations have actually gone the other way recently. The 2015 changes meant the noses were lowered even further (thus giving the impression of even bigger transitions) and the chassis height was untouched. At this point they even started regulating the nose tips - no wider than 140mm and has to start midway along the front wing.
Again, if I remember correctly nose tip regulations was due to safety concerns. I think the crash structure part can't be particularly sharp in profile so that it may penetrate the side of a car. Team can (and do) wrap the crash structure with something else to create the real aero profile. Remember a few years ago of the photos of the flexible structure on the (I think) Red Bull nose? Lots of discussion if it was part of a flexible wing/movable aero setup.

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So why can't you just write in that the chassis height should be lower, the nose height should be higher, and the minimum width of the nose tip should be identical the rest of the nose - thus eliminating the tip altogether? You could also regulate the fins using simple templates, just like they use for NASCAR.
Its all doable. The question is how spec do we want the cars to be. I suspect most fans don't want spec cars, or cars with extremely tight regulations that in effect create spec cars. We are just about there today. I am of the opinion that it's a dangerous line to try create specific looks in the cars.

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Old 22 Feb 2017, 19:06 (Ref:3714076)   #154
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Not being argumentative here, but just discussing.
Don't worry, I knew you wouldn't be. I won't quote everything on the way back as we'll be here forever.

I do think the low nose and the sudden transition are linked. Teams want a high chassis, for multple reasons. The rules dictate a low nose. So the only possible solution to this is a sudden drop. Whilst last years Force India is the best example of what can be done, it still has a flat plane and then a sudden drop.

Remember that aero isn't the only reason we have this. The suspension is now much more complex and is housed in there. The days when teams had lower chassis, the teams often had raised lumps to fit the chassis arms it. You further extend the flat plane since the entire nose of the chassis was made longer some time ago for driver safety. So given that engineers all want high chassis, the only possible solution to fit with the nose regulations is what we're seeing. There is no other effective way of doing it.

I don't believe this would actually introduce more rules. Are you suggesting there is no maximum or minimum chassis height? And no maximum or minimum nose height? I believe both of these will be defined, and their numbers just need moved to match them up closer. They actually already did this to a lesser extent to get rid of the step. That appeared due to a mismatch in max/min heights of the chassis and nose, and then allowed the vanity panels to finish the job.

These aren't new rules, just tweaks of current ones. The current regulations have ended up with everybody having the same result anyway - long flat panel, suddenly downward change, and a low flat wide nose with a nub on the end. If everybody has the same solution, then adjusting the rules so the solution is aesthetically pleasing is not going to hurt creativity since nobody was being creative in the first place. They have all converged on the same result within the regulations anyway.

The safety risk is a relatively valid one, but I'm not asking for ultra high noses. I think a happy medium exists. Like you say, the noses were lowered for safety - but it isn't like we were having regular cockpit intrusions of the nose was it? And doesn't mandating lower noses actually make it more restrictive? Isn't my proposal of raising the maximum height of the nose actually opening the available window to work in, and therefore less restrictive?

I don't really understand your point about the nose trip regulations and safety. Some teams abused it, so ok it was adjusted to make sure it was an effective crash structure. But that doesn't say anything about aesthetics. The regulations actually have minimum and maximum widths of the nubs. So why don't they just make those the same as the entire nose width, and suddenly it just looks like a nose? The only reason the teams have almost identical nubs on the front of every car is because the regulations dictate it. Adjusting the regulations doesn't limit creativity, just forces them all to move from solution A to solution B. Solution B is better looking, so what's the harm?

The changes I propose aren't really anything new apart from the fin removal. The nose height and widths, and the chassis height are already set within certain parameters. That's why every single car has a sudden dropped nose and a nub on the end. All I'm saying is those parameters should be adjusted so that they look better. They're already very specifically defined - moving the definitions won't make it more or less restrictive.

The exception to that is of course the fin, as I suggested a way of getting of it. I suggested that because other people hate the fin, but I don't mind it. The Force India one is quite ugly, but the Sauber one looks fine to me. I don't believe series should ban things based on the aesthetics of a single solution. But I do believe that the current regulations have forced every team to converge on a similar aesthetic, which is absolutely hideous*. If the rules are forcing a certain look, and/or limiting engineering solutions that only a certain look can be a proper solution, then I believe the rules should at least force a good look, rather than an ugly look.

* I specifically mean the front end of the cars. The new rear end, rear wing and rear tyres is pretty bad ass. The front is just complete garbage.

Thank you for the good discussion Richard.
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Old 22 Feb 2017, 19:37 (Ref:3714083)   #155
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I think they had a safety issue as well, as Herbert had one of his catch on the air hose rigging at a race and rip it off. Argentina I think.
Visibility concerns were at least as big a reason, at least according to the FIA.
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Old 22 Feb 2017, 20:02 (Ref:3714086)   #156
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Don't worry, I knew you wouldn't be. I won't quote everything on the way back as we'll be here forever.
I will try to just hit a few points again.

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I do think the low nose and the sudden transition are linked. Teams want a high chassis, for multple reasons. The rules dictate a low nose. So the only possible solution to this is a sudden drop. Whilst last years Force India is the best example of what can be done, it still has a flat plane and then a sudden drop.
My point is that what drives this is the combo of low nose (regulation) and high front chassis (team preference). So the transition issues are not fully or IMHO largely driven by regulations, but rather the teams. But... their job is to create fast and not pretty cars.

The same goes for your comments on the suspension side. I don't think regulation drive that, but rather teams wanting unobstructed airflow. So... high front suspension mounts.

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Are you suggesting there is no maximum or minimum chassis height? And no maximum or minimum nose height? I believe both of these will be defined, and their numbers just need moved to match them up closer. They actually already did this to a lesser extent to get rid of the step. That appeared due to a mismatch in max/min heights of the chassis and nose, and then allowed the vanity panels to finish the job.
I am no expert, but what I think the cockpit opening is highly regulated including it's height. But the seating position of the driver (with feet level with shoulders) is a team design decision. In effect, generally speaking (+/-) the chassis doesn't start sloping down at the cockpit opening, but rather at the front of the monocoque because the teams like it that way for aero purposes (airflow under the nose as much as they can).

I was taking your comment about lowering the chassis as really being to lower the front of the chassis (where the nose mounts) which I believe would be a new regulation. That would trigger a massive redesign on the aero side of things.

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The safety risk is a relatively valid one, but I'm not asking for ultra high noses. I think a happy medium exists. Like you say, the noses were lowered for safety - but it isn't like we were having regular cockpit intrusions of the nose was it?
Off hand I can't remember an incident that triggered the change. It may have been proactive and well reasoned. I will stir the pot a bit... Imagine if we had closed cockpits that might really reduce risk of cockpit intrusion. Might that free up nose design a great deal?


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The regulations actually have minimum and maximum widths of the nubs. So why don't they just make those the same as the entire nose width, and suddenly it just looks like a nose? The only reason the teams have almost identical nubs on the front of every car is because the regulations dictate it.
So I don't think much of your understanding of the nose crash structure regulations is correct. Generally there are regulations (15.4.3 in the tech regs) that define the minimum cross sectional area up near the front, that the crash structure has to extend pretty far forward, and lastly it has to be low. But there is no set height, width or specific profile. There is a maximum width (likely to prevent supper wide duck noses), and verbiage that it has to be symmetrical, so at some point... yeah, if you use a simple circle or elliptical cross section, that equates to some general boundaries with respect to minimum height and width. But the teams still have a good bit of options, such as tall skinny (knife) vs. thin and wide (duck). The early proboscis style noses really showed what the crash structure looked like. Fat sausages that had specific cross sectional areas. What I can't remember is why the proboscis style disappeared. Did a regulation require it to be covered or did the teams gravitate to a flat elliptical shape?

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Old 22 Feb 2017, 20:46 (Ref:3714094)   #157
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My point is that what drives this is the combo of low nose (regulation) and high front chassis (team preference). So the transition issues are not fully or IMHO largely driven by regulations, but rather the teams. But... their job is to create fast and not pretty cars.

The same goes for your comments on the suspension side. I don't think regulation drive that, but rather teams wanting unobstructed airflow. So... high front suspension mounts.
This is the point I disagree with. You are completely correct of course that the teams job is to create a car that is fast, not pretty. However everybody now has the same solution because that's the only one that is worth using, and that is a product of the regulations as a whole. So whether it is written specifically into the regulations that you must build a car that way, or whether the regulations leave that as the only viable solution with the current engineering knowledge, the results are the same - everybody has the same solution and it isn't pretty. So at that point, why not simply move the boundaries to create a better looking solution? If everything is the same anyway then you haven't put in any more restrictions, you're just making it look prettier.

There is a maximum height of 625mm of the chassis at the front of the cockpit. This maximum height continues along the top of the chassis (seems to also be technically called the nose, even though that isn't what we'd refer to it as in general talk) until the point where the bulkhead is. Basically every car utilises this dimension to its maximum, as you rightly point out, to utilise under car aerodynamics as much as they can. Lowering that maximum height before the bulkhead does not introduce a new rule, it simply changes the dimension they have to work with. There is an argument to say that is more restrictive, but my response to that is to point out they all have identical solutions, so moving this down for aesthetics does not restrict anybody.

Just to add some more stirring to the pot, it may also mean less effective aero. That would lower aerodynamic grip and help cars follow each other. So potentially not only would this solution look better, it might help the racing.

However I believe the nose height is regulated:

http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2015/07/1...ren-2015-nose/

The nose will be lowered further and must sit 135mm to 220mm above the floor

So they have an area of 9cm to play with, and the highest it can be is approximately 1/3 of the height of the car.

The result of these regulations is that everybody has to have a low nose. The current aero dependant regulations mean that everybody has been forced into the same solution of a high chassis. Therefore the only things we're going to see under these cars is a high chassis with a long flat plane which then suddenly curves downwards and ends up at a long flat nose, most of which have silly nubs on the end to extend the car out to the minimum length.

If we're going to have regulations which force teams down certain paths, then I'd rather have them forced down a path which is pleasing to look at. F1 has suffered in recent years IMO, and the appeal of the cars is part of that problem. When F1 cars look so ridiculous that they get compared to sex toys, and sound so bad that they are compared to hair dryers, the series has a fundamental problem. There's also an argument to say that this is a business and a sport, and for it to survive and be successful, it should be appealing to the views. I can't say the current crop of vehicles is appealing to watch, in all honesty.
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Old 22 Feb 2017, 21:38 (Ref:3714101)   #158
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This is the point I disagree with.
On that point we will have to disagree.

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There is a maximum height of 625mm of the chassis at the front of the cockpit. This maximum height continues along the top of the chassis.
I think it would be a bit more than adjusting that one value (you might trigger another ugly step near the cockpit by accident), but to be fair maybe not a lot of text would have to change.

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However I believe the nose height is regulated
Yes, for sure it is. I hope I didn't imply or say otherwise. The shape while not totally free is pretty free. More free than the designs we see today.

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The result of these regulations is that everybody has to have a low nose. The current aero dependant regulations mean that everybody has been forced into the same solution of a high chassis. Therefore the only things we're going to see under these cars is a high chassis with a long flat plane which then suddenly curves downwards and ends up at a long flat nose, most of which have silly nubs on the end to extend the car out to the minimum length.
Agree with a slight qualification... Regulations + physics, not regulations alone. But I think we are mostly in violent agreement.

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If we're going to have regulations which force teams down certain paths, then I'd rather have them forced down a path which is pleasing to look at.
The regulations currently don't outright say "look like this" even if some are written in ways to achieve that goal (such as recent tweaks to nose design to address the ugly complaints.) They try to not explicitly define how it should look. Instead they jump through verbal hoops to do it in a backwards way. Text like... "area between lines A and B can't be more than blah blah" then runs the risk of valid interpretations that were not expected and are contrary to the unwritten, but expected goals (i.e. beauty).

I just have a strong negative reaction to rules that would explicitly define aesthetics which is what I think some here want.

I think this is a bit off topic and I am worn out on the topic at the moment. So I am likely to move on.

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Old 22 Feb 2017, 22:47 (Ref:3714111)   #159
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That would be a novel idea ...😊
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Old 22 Feb 2017, 23:24 (Ref:3714115)   #160
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That would be a novel idea ...😊
We LOVE our pedantic discussions and disagreements here!

Back on topic...

We can expect Mercedes to reveal tomorrow? Do we think it will be anything radically different than what we have seen so far? My expectations is that while there will be all sorts of differences, the larger differences between the teams will be the various aero bits on and around the sidepods.

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Old 22 Feb 2017, 23:26 (Ref:3714117)   #161
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the Sauber on track for their filming day.

imo colour scheme looks sharp on track and sounds pretty decent too (old engine though right?).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3v1SKqAzmzo
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Old 22 Feb 2017, 23:34 (Ref:3714119)   #162
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We LOVE our pedantic discussions and disagreements here!

Back on topic...

We can expect Mercedes to reveal tomorrow? Do we think it will be anything radically different than what we have seen so far? My expectations is that while there will be all sorts of differences, the larger differences between the teams will be the various aero bits on and around the sidepods.

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Old 22 Feb 2017, 23:51 (Ref:3714122)   #163
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Old 23 Feb 2017, 00:48 (Ref:3714129)   #164
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the Sauber on track for their filming day.

imo colour scheme looks sharp on track and sounds pretty decent too (old engine though right?).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3v1SKqAzmzo
Yes, Sauber are running the 2016 engine. I understand why, but I think they're going to come to regret it (cf Toro Rosso last year, who had a cracking chassis but fell further and further back as the year wore on). And no tokens this year...
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Old 23 Feb 2017, 02:03 (Ref:3714147)   #165
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F1 has suffered in recent years IMO, and the appeal of the cars is part of that problem. When F1 cars look so ridiculous that they get compared to sex toys, and sound so bad that they are compared to hair dryers, the series has a fundamental problem. There's also an argument to say that this is a business and a sport, and for it to survive and be successful, it should be appealing to the views. I can't say the current crop of vehicles is appealing to watch, in all honesty.
F1 has suffered in recent years but I don't think the aesthetic appeal of the cars is part of the problem. The problem is primarily down to ill thought out rules and regulations, which have produced the racing, or lack of racing we now see. The domination on the track, of first RBR/Vettel and then Mercedes/Hamilton hasn't helped either.
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Old 23 Feb 2017, 02:20 (Ref:3714149)   #166
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Force India looks like they are lost in space,the car looks like a bunch of spare parts that they had laying around! ...its shocking really, come on Ross Brawn put the hammer down ..
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Old 23 Feb 2017, 12:37 (Ref:3714252)   #167
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Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith View Post
F1 has suffered in recent years but I don't think the aesthetic appeal of the cars is part of the problem. The problem is primarily down to ill thought out rules and regulations, which have produced the racing, or lack of racing we now see. The domination on the track, of first RBR/Vettel and then Mercedes/Hamilton hasn't helped either.
I agree that the rules have been very poor (especially qualifying and the radio rules), but if the cars aren't fun then nobody will watch it. Rally is a great example of that. Bad rules, ugly cars that sound terrible, and expensive to be able to watch it.

However on the original topic, heres a Mercedes!


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Old 23 Feb 2017, 12:51 (Ref:3714253)   #168
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And that's far and away the best looking so far.
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Old 23 Feb 2017, 12:52 (Ref:3714254)   #169
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Indeed. The nose and wing is far from pretty, but the rest of it is very nice. I particularly like the detail on the sidepods, how tightly wrapped they are. Actually looks like muscles, like it's been in the gym lifting weights all winter.
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Old 23 Feb 2017, 14:19 (Ref:3714270)   #170
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Originally Posted by Akrapovic View Post
I agree that the rules have been very poor (especially qualifying and the radio rules), but if the cars aren't fun then nobody will watch it. Rally is a great example of that. Bad rules, ugly cars that sound terrible, and expensive to be able to watch it.

However on the original topic, heres a Mercedes!


I like that. Definitely the best looking car so far and everything looks in proportion.

Like Williams, they haven't opted for the Shark fin and interesting to note what they have done to the floor, particularly the rear, with what looks like slots.
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Old 23 Feb 2017, 14:24 (Ref:3714272)   #171
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What was the thinking behind the "swept back" rear wing?
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Old 23 Feb 2017, 14:57 (Ref:3714276)   #172
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So, the Mercedes is about 40 feet long.

I quickly, and very crudely shortened it up in front of the rear wheels, and it look a zillion times better.
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Old 23 Feb 2017, 15:57 (Ref:3714285)   #173
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Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith View Post
I like that. Definitely the best looking car so far and everything looks in proportion.

Like Williams, they haven't opted for the Shark fin and interesting to note what they have done to the floor, particularly the rear, with what looks like slots.
Yes it's a lovely looking race car, it flows beautifully, hopefully Mercedes will stay with the small shark fin ..
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Old 23 Feb 2017, 15:59 (Ref:3714286)   #174
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So, the Mercedes is about 40 feet long.

I quickly, and very crudely shortened it up in front of the rear wheels, and it look a zillion times better.
It's approx. four Valteri Bottas' long if laid end to end.... this car is just a hair's breadth shorter than the Queen Mary... I mean, it's possible that it's going to require a four point turn to get around the Loews hairpin at Monaco with a "I have a huge blindspot on this side" sticker you often see on the back of a lorry...
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Old 23 Feb 2017, 16:11 (Ref:3714288)   #175
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yeah the Merc is the best looking so far for me as well...rounded nose, almost no fin, clever approach to the step, sculpted sidepods, narrow rear...

i am assuming that much of this comes down to how much more money and resources Merc have relative to the other teams who have launched so far.

actually find myself wondering if its really about beauty or if i am just equating (or confusing) aesthetics with money.
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