Just how good was Damon Hill?

[BSchneiderFan]

I shall have to add it to my list.

For me, Damon Hill was in the B group of drivers: certainly good enough to win races, and in the right circumstances had a championship in him. For some reason he reminds me of Riccardo Patrese. Think about it, if Mansell hadn't gone back to Williams in 1991, the '92 WDC would probably have been Patrese or Boutsen, so good was that Williams. And Hill in a good car in qualifying, with the dying seconds of the session ticking down, was quite amazing. Was he as good as Schumacher? Obviously not, and I'm sure Damon wouldn't claim to be. But he deserved a title.

[Mike Harte]

BSFan, going from memory which I happily admit is beginning to fail me, wasn't the only reason that the Williams was the class of the field was solely down to the development work that Damon did, and the reason that he actually got the drive was largely because of his efforts in that regard.

And he was peerless in that last gasp qualifying lap when he had finalised the perfect way round in his mind. Oh, for those days back again!

[BSchneiderFan]

He did have a very good reputation as a development driver, but that doesn't always lead to championship glory. Remember how many ultra-successful Ferraris Luca Badoer helped hone, and what happened when he got the race seat…

My "B group" comment wasn't meant derogatorily; there are some very good drivers, and many world champions in that group - Scheckter, Hulme, Hill Sr, Rosberg Jr. Opportunity came their way and they seized it. And I don't underestimate Damon's struggles - no family money (I seem to recall the Hills were pretty hard-up after Graham died), coming to four wheels late-ish in life, plugging around with Brabham in 1992. Good luck to him. I always thought he might have been good in sportscars after F1.

[S griffin]

Originally Posted by BSchneiderFan

I shall have to add it to my list.

For me, Damon Hill was in the B group of drivers: certainly good enough to win races, and in the right circumstances had a championship in him. For some reason he reminds me of Riccardo Patrese. Think about it, if Mansell hadn't gone back to Williams in 1991, the '92 WDC would probably have been Patrese or Boutsen, so good was that Williams. And Hill in a good car in qualifying, with the dying seconds of the session ticking down, was quite amazing. Was he as good as Schumacher? Obviously not, and I'm sure Damon wouldn't claim to be. But he deserved a title.

I don't think Boutsen would have done it, he tended to have too many days where you wouldn't notice him. That said his wet weather driving was up there with his compatriot Jacky Ickx

[BSchneiderFan]

Patrese would probably have beaten him, as he did everyone else but Mansell in 1992.

[chunder]

If you watch that interview, Damon openly admits he wasn't perhaps as good as Schumacher. Or Senna, but he is very happy to tell you he had the beating of Prost numerous times which was obviously true. Alain was at the end of his career and playing the percentages to win as he often did.

My thoughts about watching that interview is a Scheckter type persona, a guy who got himself there through hard work and determination, got himself into a good car won a championship but also knew it was not likely to last. And was also very aware of his mortality and was not prepared to throw it into the fence for a 10th in a garbage Arrows.

The other thing I took, was the way Williams behaved after he won the title and still signed Frentzen. That obviously and quite rightly tainted badly his view of F1. One of the poorest decisions Williams made and one that thankfully made them look stupid as Frentzen was a disaster in a Williams.

[BertMk2]

Originally Posted by chunder

The other thing I took, was the way Williams behaved after he won the title and still signed Frentzen. That obviously and quite rightly tainted badly his view of F1. One of the poorest decisions Williams made and one that thankfully made them look stupid as Frentzen was a disaster in a Williams.

Frentzen was a disaster at Williams but I think that says as much about Williams as it does about Frentzen. Clearly for whatever reason he just didn't fit in there - also at that time Williams were on a downward slope - isn't that when they were running the 'Mechachrome' engine? (whatever it was called it was just the same Renault lump they'd been running previously but with no updates. When Frentzen moved to Jordan his performances improved - obviously an environment he was happier with.

For whatever reason Frentzen struggled in the Williams environment whilst Hill took it in his stride. Having recently read Webbers book he also didn't like the environment at Williams (and was in fact pretty scathing about it) so it wasn't just Frentzen!

[S griffin]

Frentzen was never gonna fit in with the harsh environment of Williams. He's not the only one, there's also Reutemann, Boutsen and Zanardi. Surprised though that Webber found it hard, surely his no nonsense approach suited Williams?

[chunder]

I don't think you can blame the team that much really, all they do is provide the car, and in 97 it was a very good car capable of winning the championship. That was the way Williams worked and had been for years, Frentzen should have known that. It was no secret.

Frentzen was simply too fragile mentally or was unable to drive the car the way it needed to be driven. Coulthard did not stay there long either did he?

Damon I think did so well because he had done so much work with the car and team beforehand and understood the way it all worked so well. So he was possibly more able to deal with the in house stuff rather than a guy who came in from outside. Plus he was quick.

Frentzen was simply a rather odd driver, he got where he did on reputation, not so much on results. He was superb in the Jordan agreed, but did very little else in his career. Other than the odd flash of brilliance. And Villeneuve made him look silly most of the time at Williams, even on his beloved grooved tyres!

[BSchneiderFan]

Getting rather off-topic, but from the outside I got the impression Webber was a good fit at Williams, like they'd found their new Alan Jones.

[VIVA GT]

Originally Posted by chunder

I don't think you can blame the team that much really, all they do is provide the car, and in 97 it was a very good car capable of winning the championship. That was the way Williams worked and had been for years, Frentzen should have known that. It was no secret.

Frentzen was simply too fragile mentally or was unable to drive the car the way it needed to be driven. Coulthard did not stay there long either did he?

Damon I think did so well because he had done so much work with the car and team beforehand and understood the way it all worked so well. So he was possibly more able to deal with the in house stuff rather than a guy who came in from outside. Plus he was quick.

Frentzen was simply a rather odd driver, he got where he did on reputation, not so much on results. He was superb in the Jordan agreed, but did very little else in his career. Other than the odd flash of brilliance. And Villeneuve made him look silly most of the time at Williams, even on his beloved grooved tyres!

The Frentzen reputation thing, wasn't it because he was quicker than Michael Schumacher when they both drove in Mercedes Sports Cars?

[BSchneiderFan]

Originally Posted by VIVA GT

The Frentzen reputation thing, wasn't it because he was quicker than Michael Schumacher when they both drove in Mercedes Sports Cars?

I have a feeling they were comparable but Frentzen got there sooner. Obviously appearances were deceptive.

[chunterer]

It went back a bit further than that.

Schumacher was generally beaten by Wendlinger (the champion) and HHF in the 1989 German F3 series.

Wendy and HHF moved on but Schu stayed on and dominated the following year which was a weaker field.

AFAIR when all 3 tested the Group C for the first time in 1989 (at Ricard I think it was?) there wasn't much between them speed and time wise but Schuey scored heavily on attention to detail, his information relay and work rate whereas the other 2 were just quick pedallers but not too bothered about the finer details at that time. this is something he obviously used to his advantage in his Benetton and Ferrari days later on.

[JABWOA]

Plus Corrine was HHF's GF before they started the Merc programme but then became Mrs Schu. HHF was faster but as noted MS had better attention to detail but prone to a bit of recklessness. Wendy was considered the best of the three overall.

I recall HHF needed to be coddled to perform, something that Williams would never do and hence the relationship didn't work.

Mark and Williams.... I supported his move (even knowing he had the Renault seat next to Alonso in the bag) but wow, it was a spectacular failure. Williams descended even further down the hole and Mark overdrove the car to point of failure in frustration. And then they signed the son of a WDC journeyman in to the sister car...

[GTRMagic]

Originally Posted by S griffin

Frentzen was never gonna fit in with the harsh environment of Williams. He's not the only one, there's also Reutemann, Boutsen and Zanardi. Surprised though that Webber found it hard, surely his no nonsense approach suited Williams?

The number of technical failures during Mr Webber's time at Williams would have tested the patience of a saint... There was clearly potential in the package, but it did not seem to get unlocked.

[BSchneiderFan]

The bottom line is delivery. Frentzen had a championship-winning car and delivered a solitary victory. Schuey is the most successful F1 driver of all time.

[S griffin]

Originally Posted by GTRMagic

The number of technical failures during Mr Webber's time at Williams would have tested the patience of a saint... There was clearly potential in the package, but it did not seem to get unlocked.

I seem to remember he claim close to winning at Monaco in 2006. One of his best drives ever, shame the car didn't last

[Inigo Montoya]

He was good enough to put an Arrows Yamaha on the podium in Hungary, 1997 - a race he would have won had he not had a mechanical failure.

But yeah.. a second-tier driver compared to his peers at the time.

[BSchneiderFan]

Originally Posted by Inigo Montoya

He was good enough to put an Arrows Yamaha on the podium in Hungary, 1997 - a race he would have won had he not had a mechanical failure.

But yeah.. a second-tier driver compared to his peers at the time.

Not sure I *quite* agree with that; in the sense that I would argue the only first-tier drivers he competed against were Schumacher and a one-hand-on-the-exit-door Prost. I think he could match up to any of his other contemporaries.

[S griffin]

I don't think even he would say he was on the level of Schumi, but he worked hard to make sure he got the better of him on several occasions

[wnut]

Hill was good enough that when Williams decided to dump him despite Newey's request that Williams keep Hill, Newey resigned as a result!

[S griffin]

Actually Newey left because he wanted a bigger stake in a team IIRC, but they refused, so their loss was McLaren's and later RBR's gain

[chunterer]

Originally Posted by BSchneiderFan

Not sure I *quite* agree with that; in the sense that I would argue the only first-tier drivers he competed against were Schumacher and a one-hand-on-the-exit-door Prost. I think he could match up to any of his other contemporaries.

Hakkinen, Alesi, Barrichello were certainly better and although I never rated Berger as an out an out ace, I think he probably would have had the measure of Damon in equal cars and Gerhard was always a driver for the big occasion. DC was often quicker but at the time too incident prone.

Damon was far from undeserving and better than average, no question but he was a fair way off the aces.

[S griffin]

Hakkinen was definitely a match for Schumi. No surprise he was the only driver Schumi feared. As for DC, I don't remember him really being incident prone, it's just that he would do a drive one week where he could blow the doors off anyone, then another week you would forget he was in the race. Certainly the move to RBR was the best thing to happen to him

[chunterer]

Originally Posted by S griffin

Hakkinen was definitely a match for Schumi. No surprise he was the only driver Schumi feared. As for DC, I don't remember him really being incident prone, it's just that he would do a drive one week where he could blow the doors off anyone, then another week you would forget he was in the race. Certainly the move to RBR was the best thing to happen to him

I said DC was incident prone early on, certainly in '95 at Williams and then he went to McLaren where he was a solid runner for many years.