Vettel To The Metal. Vettel/Webber/Hamilton incident.

[Eurosnob]

Originally Posted by JamesH

I would have thought that the fact that the stewards have made no mention of any bad behaviour by Hamilton - and lets be honest, ...

... Bernie wouldn't have let them.

Couldn't resist, sorry for hijacking your post JamesH.

Back to the sandpit y'all.

[rocketracer]

Originally Posted by JamesH

I would have thought that the fact that the stewards have made no mention of any bad behaviour by Hamilton - and lets be honest, they are the experts, and were actually there, and have access to all the race fotage, unlike any of the commenters here, should curtail any of the anti-Hamilton bias here. But I DOUBT IT.

Its the responsibility of the cars behind to avoid the lead car in a safety car situation. Live with it. If you crash in to the car in front, then its your fault, despite what the car in front is doing, as Vettel indicated. He apologised for the incident.

firstly, i posted the regulations to read exactly what is required of drivers under safety car conditions as per the FIA. had alonso, or raikkonnen or heidfeld or any of the other drivers driven in that same manner, i would have posted the rulings as a starting point of discussion, so that we can keep away from the particular driver biases, and stick to discussing the incidents in relation to the rulings.

secondly, the whole point of having a safety car, is to regulate the pace of the cars, and avoid on track racing - therefore avoid scenarios where the competing cars may crash, or endanger the on-track stewards in a hazardous situation - is it not?

Therefore, driving behaviour which provokes crashing would be directly against the point of having a safety car, no? Whether it abides by the regulations or not. I think you could safely say that hamilton's driving antics were a large contributor to the accident. Not blaming him, and i dont think hamilton should be fined or penalised in any way but ultimately, his driving was a contributing factor to an accident behind the safety car that was unnecessary, and possibly the ruling could be cleaned up a bit in terms of what is acceptable for the future.

[mac]

Originally Posted by JamesH

I would have thought that the fact that the stewards have made no mention of any bad behaviour by Hamilton - and lets be honest, they are the experts, and were actually there, and have access to all the race fotage, unlike any of the commenters here, should curtail any of the anti-Hamilton bias here. But I DOUBT IT.

Doesn't mean the officials didn't have an unofficial chat to him...

As an aside, I just watched the start again as Hamilton is perennially baulking Alonso prior to the green flag - James Allen yells at the top of his lungs, "wonderful gamesmanship from Hamilton!!!", while Brundle seems to say much more quietly, "no, it's silly", as Allen keeps making ridiculous noise...

[Ralf's Girl]

Yeah, but let's not take James Allen's opinion as a measure of anything...

Yes, Hamilton was going very slowly and perhaps, given the conditions, should have thought more carefully how his actions would affect those behind him. BUT he was not punished and the stewards didn't see fit to even investigate him - they were pretty on the ball yesterday, they got Massa for overtaking under the safety car, Kubica for running into Hamilton... Crucially, the only person to receive any punishment over the restart incident was Vettel, so if we must do blame (and it seems that we must ) the majority of it is being placed on him.

I agree that perhaps a rule should be put in place to prevent drivers from backing the field up as drastically as Hamilton did yesterday (and as many other drivers do in the same situation), but Hamilton can't be punished under a rule that doesn't exist.

[Nicholosophy]

The cars should be allowed to weave left and right as much is required to warm the tyres up, but should be made to stick a consistant distance behind the safety car. When the car pulls off, the car at the front should not be allowed to slow any further and continue on.

[Alan Raine]

Apart from a small comment by Vittel the only people complaining about Hamiltons tactics seem to be here.

Personally I think he was a bit out of order but no worse than TGF stamping on his brakes in the Monaco tunnel!

[Leighton Irwin]

In case anyone has forgotten it Lewis is also a rookie, albeit a very fast and good one. Both he and Vettel have years of racing behind them, just not F1.
I do think Lewis was a little extreme but the officials did not.
If you have watched CC and IRL racing with their rolling starts and far more re-starts you will see the same antics all the time. They have had their share of accidents as everyone trys to get the jump. As said, despite far more experience with the rolling starts and re-starts they still have accidents. That is one reason CC went to standing starts this year to try and avoid some of the games being played.
Unfortunately, Mark and Vettel ended up out of it but given everyones' relative inexpeience with the safety car in the rain I feel we should just chalk it up to another racing incident. At least no one was hurt.

[mac]

Originally Posted by Leighton Irwin

At least no one was hurt.

So Mark must not have caught up with Sebastien after the race then?

[rpolinski]

Originally Posted by NickoGP

The cars should be allowed to weave left and right as much is required to warm the tyres up, but should be made to stick a consistant distance behind the safety car. When the car pulls off, the car at the front should not be allowed to slow any further and continue on.

I remember a commentator here in Oz who used to race saying weaving left and right doesn't do much to generate heat, more to make sure the temperature is even distributed. THe majority of heat is generated from acceleration and heat soak from the heavy breaking.

[johnh875]

Re the restarts:

Originally Posted by F1 regs

40.13 When the clerk of the course calls in the safety car, it must extinguish its orange lights, this will be the signal to the drivers that it will be entering the pit lane at the end of that lap. At this point the first car in line behind the safety car may dictate the pace and, if necessary, fall more than five car lengths behind it. As the safety car is approaching the pit entry the yellow flags and SC boards will be withdrawn and replaced by waved green flags with green lights at the Line. These will be displayed until the last car crosses the Line.

Personally I think that "false starts" as Hamilton did at the first start are definitely "potentially dangerous to other drivers" as per 40.7 as you have the concertina effect through the field.

[dsg]

Originally Posted by JamesH

I would have thought that the fact that the stewards have made no mention of any bad behaviour by Hamilton - and lets be honest, they are the experts, and were actually there, and have access to all the race fotage, unlike any of the commenters here, should curtail any of the anti-Hamilton bias here. But I DOUBT IT.

Originally Posted by Alan Raine

Apart from a small comment by Vittel the only people complaining about Hamiltons tactics seem to be here.

Apparently not.

http://www.f1-live.com/f1/en/headlin...01093723.shtml

[spectator22]

Anyone interested can get Webber's view from his personal column in Australia's Motorsport eNews (http://www.mnews.com.au) where he says "Theres no point in remaining angry about it. It's gone and theres another race next week". He also says that he was thinking about ways to have a go at passing Hamilton. So close, and opportunities dont come along often in thios McLaren/Ferrari year.

[Dixie Flatline]

As noted in the race thread, Marca claims that Hamilton's victory was only confirmed after 7 hours of deliberations by the stewards concerning whether his actions contributed to the collision between Webber and Vettel.

Article is here.

[Meroo]

Webber's luck has been diabolical for his whole career. Surely it will turn eventually by the law of averages, but I'm close to giving up hope.

BTW, I warm the brakes when racing by partially applying them while still using the throttle, which is surely safer and more effective than the stop go stuff employed by Lewis and others.

Still, I don't think Lewis or Webber can held responsible for the incident.

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by spectator22

Anyone interested can get Webber's view from his personal column in Australia's Motorsport eNews (http://www.mnews.com.au) where he says "Theres no point in remaining angry about it. It's gone and theres another race next week". He also says that he was thinking about ways to have a go at passing Hamilton. So close, and opportunities dont come along often in thios McLaren/Ferrari year.

A good attitude. And one that won't be seen much by others I suspect.

[Bononi]

Totally agree.

[Woolley]

To be honest, there's so much faffing about in the queue (and now filtering down to lower formulae) and on the warm up laps too I'm amazed it doesn't happen more. To blame any one driver is to ignore that everyone does it and there has been no control attempted. They should just be told to follow each other at a sensible distance and if they must warm the tyres stick to the sidey-slide stuff (being aware that marshals may be working on any part of the track during a SC period - and it's their safety that the car's out).

[Patrick Fletche]

Originally Posted by jab

It's funny. Lewis was driving dangerously today under the safety car. Maybe not totally to blame for the collision but partly. It was going to happen if he just carried on stopping and starting like that. And yet Kubica and Vettel are the ones that get ridiculous penalties - perhaps he's inherited the FIA's favouritism mantle from TGF

It certainly looks that way.

2 drivers punished by the FIA for Hamilton's deliberate recklessness. And Webber out of a well earned podium.
And Hamilton blaming Webber after the race was just like him blaming Alonso for Au Rouge.

I have said before, Hamilton is headed for one massive crash. F1 cars are not carts.

[Adam43]

Can you be deliberately reckless?

Hamilton blamed Webber? For what? I haven't seen him comment on Webber, care to provide a link?
What did he blame Alonso for? There was no bad result to blame anyone for as they entered Eau Rouge? He said that he should have given him more room in La Source, but I don't see any blame going on.

[FPV GTHO]

Apparently he said in the post race interviews that he'd asked the team to tell Red Bull to get Webber off his backside

[Adam43]

Cheers FPV GTHO.

Webber should have done the same with Vettel!?

[ensign14]

Originally Posted by Dixie Flatline

As noted in the race thread, Marca claims that Hamilton's victory was only confirmed after 7 hours of deliberations by the stewards concerning whether his actions contributed to the collision between Webber and Vettel.

Article is here.

Spanish newspaper, though...might be a bit tainted.

Funny that there are a number of Aussies blaming Hamilton rather than Vettel. Surely not Anglo-bashing for the sake of it?

Personally, the "safety" car sucks anyway. Why should everyone get the chance to wipe out their deficit? The cars all have limiters...

[FPV GTHO]

Originally Posted by AdamAshmore

Cheers FPV GTHO.

Webber should have done the same with Vettel!?

Ive got a feeling Webber was making sure he wasnt left in Hamiltons spray when the Safety Car decided to go off. He probably felt that he had his part of the situation under control and expected Hamilton and Vettel to be the same. Hindsight's a wonderful thing though...

[jab]

A revealing video

http://youtube.com/watch?v=8hWIfBkVQUk

[Chiefy]

Useful video footage. Hamilton is wide. Webber comes alongside and brakes. Vettel goes into him.

I think, in an effort to be fair, blame ought to be apportioned to all three parties. Hamilton's stop-start tactics did verge on dangerous, for my money (especially when he was dicing with Alonso); Webber should never have been that close; and Vettel, likewise, shouldn't have been that close to Webber.

At the end of the day I'd call it a racing incident, and matters arising should perhaps be dealt with in-house (ie in the Red Bull house). Nevertheless, such intra-team difficulties have provoked FIA interference in the past (McLaren at Hungary), so I suppose that in making an effort to be fair, they have to penalise the man who looks most responsible for what should have been an avoidable incident.