Montoya blows it again

garcon · 15 Sep 2002, 13:05 (Ref:380552)

Admit it everybody - he's hopeless. I'd be amazed if he ever wins another GP let alone the WDC.

He is, frankly, brainless. He gets a demo from the red cars every two weeks and still has no idea how to win a race. He doesn't know where the limit is - he's either seconds off the pace or, like today, he goes well beyond the limit and screws it up.

Some of you say he's a racer - he's not a racer, cos a racer knows how to do battle and come out in front with his car in one piece. Remind me of a single occasion when Montoya has got into a decent battle and not either been beaten or retired...

There is no longer any debate about who is the second best driver out there - as I type he's just polishing off the fastest GP in history.

Jay · 15 Sep 2002, 13:42 (Ref:380568)

Well he's certainly the fastest over one lap!

He may take a while to get it together, but eventually he should manage to cool it down and have some good finishes.

Mr V · 15 Sep 2002, 13:43 (Ref:380569)

OK, i'll bite, i don't see what the problem was, apart from the start! After that he was struggling with a heavier car, what did you want to see? Everybody complains that we don't see any racing, when JPM try's defending his position, people like you slag him off! You can't have it all! With regards to the incident that put him out of the race, he didn't hit the curbs any harder than any of the other drivers who went on to finish!

neilap · 15 Sep 2002, 13:46 (Ref:380572)

This post is just plain dumb!!

I am not attacking the poster, its just the post. What is the point in this? If there is a bonehead in this race its Salo!!! Hello??!!

garcon · 15 Sep 2002, 13:47 (Ref:380573)

I want to see proper racing too, I'm all in favour of JPM, Kimi and the Shueys mixing it like they should - it's just that JPM never seems to pull it off, and it can't be bad luck every time!

Nothing wrong with the start - except Ralf's shortcut, but it sounds like they'd have sorted that out if his engine hadn't given out...

Inigo Montoya · 15 Sep 2002, 13:54 (Ref:380582)

Hate to add to the bash thread, as I'm now a Montoya fan too, but...
I have to mention the chop. TGF was crucified by many in this forum, but somehow it just continues to be fine when Juan does it.

f1manoz · 15 Sep 2002, 13:55 (Ref:380585)

What goes around comes around, concerning the chop.

Lee Janotta · 15 Sep 2002, 13:56 (Ref:380586)

This post is just plain dumb, and I am attacking the poster!

FLAME BAIT!!!!!!! His suspension broke, watch the tape before you start spewing BS like this!!!

Do you see Ralf or Kimi or Coultard or anyone else getting even CLOSE to even passing Rubens? HUH?!

Yeah, that's what I thought...

garcon · 15 Sep 2002, 13:59 (Ref:380588)

I thought it was fine when TGF did it! It's dangerous, but legal - while it's legal there should be no complaints.

Did TGF complain? No!!

Shall I tell you why? Because TGF just knows that even if JPM gets through turns 1, 2 and 3 in front of him, the odds are he'll have his place back in the first few laps...

Inigo Montoya · 15 Sep 2002, 14:00 (Ref:380590)

I also thought it was fine when TGF did it - I just wonder where are all the "safety-concerned" members of the forum that used to complain about it?

Mr V · 15 Sep 2002, 14:00 (Ref:380591)

Quote:

Originally posted by Inigo Montoya
I have to mention the chop. TGF was crucified by many in this forum, but somehow it just continues to be fine when Juan does it.

As a Montoya fan, i have to say that imo, it's not fine if he does it, and i was one of the posters who critized TGF for doing it. I don't want to sound like i'm defending JPM for doing it, because i'm not, but i do blame the FIA for not stamping it out earlier. By allowing Michael to get away with it, they have made a rod for their own backs, and have to allow it when others do it.

Don't mean i like it anymore though when Juan does it.

garcon · 15 Sep 2002, 14:04 (Ref:380594)

Quote:

Originally posted by Lee Janotta
This post is just plain dumb, and I am attacking the poster!

FLAME BAIT!!!!!!! Guilty as charged!

His suspension broke, watch the tape before you start spewing BS like this!!! And why, pray, did his suspension break? Because he lost it!

Do you see Ralf or Kimi or Coultard or anyone else getting even CLOSE to even passing Rubens? HUH?!

Yeah, that's what I thought...

Hey, I'm not knocking JPM's liking for a battle, I'm just saying he should learn how to win one occasionally!!

Mania · 15 Sep 2002, 14:04 (Ref:380595)

Quote:

Originally posted by Lee Janotta

Do you see Ralf or Kimi or Coultard or anyone else getting even CLOSE to even passing Rubens? HUH?!

Ralf was already ahead of Rubens and Michael. He was asked to let Pablo through but he was easily quicker than him so he probably would have re-passed Pablo had the engine in his T-Car not lunched itself.

Speaking of Pablo's race performances...I wonder if he once again chose a different tyre to Ralf in order to give him the edge in qualifying...anyway he made a mistake at the chicane and paid for it.

He has top work on his race craft..no doubt about it. Its all very well to be quick on Saturday but its Sunday where it really counts.

Mr V · 15 Sep 2002, 14:08 (Ref:380599)

Quote:

Originally posted by Mania

He was asked to let Pablo through but he was easily quicker than him so he probably would have re-passed Pablo had the engine in his T-Car not lunched itself.

Where did you hear this Mania? He didn't let JPM through, the fact that the engine went allowed him through. Have to say that i felt sorry for Rafe though, it would have made it alot harder for Rubens if the engine hadn't have blown up imo.

Mr V · 15 Sep 2002, 14:10 (Ref:380600)

Quote:

Originally posted by garcon

Hey, I'm not knocking JPM's liking for a battle, I'm just saying he should learn how to win one occasionally!!

Do you honestly believe that either Williams would have won if they'd managed to stay in one piece? I don't.

Mania · 15 Sep 2002, 14:10 (Ref:380601)

Ralf went on air with ITV'S Louise Goodman - and he said that the team was told by the FIA to ask him to let Pablo through since they deemed Ralf to have jumped the chicane at the start. Ralf said he thought it was a bit harsh since both of them had actually jumped over the chicane but anyway he said he slowed down to let him go by just as his engine went kaput.

Bad day for Ralf - he had the pace to win the race I think...or at least finish 2nd.

R · 15 Sep 2002, 14:13 (Ref:380605)

Quote:

Originally posted by garcon
FLAME BAIT!!!!!!! Guilty as charged!

So you are admitting to starting this topic as a flame bait? Do you think that's good forum ethics?

Btw, this was not the fastest GP in history. The cruising and toying towards the end saw to that.

Sato san · 15 Sep 2002, 14:14 (Ref:380607)

Quote:

Originally posted by f1manoz
What goes around comes around, concerning the chop.

im very very dissapointed to see Juan use the chop like he did. And had TGF done it that aggresivley then i would have been fuming. I'm just so dissapointed to see the great man ( JPM) use such a poor move .

Mr V · 15 Sep 2002, 14:14 (Ref:380608)

Quote:

Originally posted by Mania
Ralf went on air with ITV'S Louise Goodman - and he said that the team was told by the FIA to ask him to let Pablo through since they deemed Ralf to have jumped the chicane at the start.

If this is the case, then i feel that it was abit harsh. Initially i thought that Rafe had gained an advantage, but when it was shown from an "over-head" angle it was plain to see that both drivers were fighting for the position fairly, but both caught the run off area, and that Rafe had nowhere to go.

Mr V · 15 Sep 2002, 14:20 (Ref:380612)

Quote:

Originally posted by garcon
And why, pray, did his suspension break? Because he lost it!

No he didn't lose it, he clipped the curbs, just as everyother car was doing, but then his suspension broke!

Just out of interest, back in 1996, he saw Michael do very much the same sort of thing (he caught the bollards) which damaged his car, but allowed him to car on to win the race, what was the difference between JPM's hitting the curbs and Michael's hitting the bollard? was it?

a) that the damaged allowed him to carry on?

or

b) that you like Michael but not Juan, so that makes it different?

just curious?

garcon · 15 Sep 2002, 14:20 (Ref:380613)

Quote:

Originally posted by mr v

Do you honestly believe that either Williams would have won if they'd managed to stay in one piece? I don't.

Aw c'mon Mr V, you're asking tifosi an impossible question!

Of course I don't believe either Williams could have gone on to win! But it would have been nice if they'd stayed in the fight a bit longer.

Think of the race as a war made up of a series of battles - both Williams started well and needed to win the first couple of battles if they were to have a chance of winning the war.

But if you launch into the first battle with a blind do-or-die lunge that'll hardly ever pay off, you're not often going to be around to fight the second and third battles, let alone the war.

It's a difficult line that only the best can tread - you have to fight, but you have to know when to back off to be in a position to try again.

JPM hasn't worked that last bit out just yet. For the sake of the sepctacle of F1 I hope he does, but there's no sign of it yet.

Mania · 15 Sep 2002, 14:24 (Ref:380615)

I thought it was unfair to put the penalty on Ralf - especially since both of them went over the curbs..Ralf obviously went in further than Pablo but that was because he had nowhere to go...anyway it's all secondary since Ralf's car didnt even last a couple of laps..and thats after his race car failed during warm up.

A real shame - because he stil had some hot pace after all those troubles.

garcon · 15 Sep 2002, 14:25 (Ref:380616)

Quote:

Originally posted by R

So you are admitting to starting this topic as a flame bait? Do you think that's good forum ethics?

Btw, this was not the fastest GP in history. The cruising and toying towards the end saw to that.

Erm.

Ok, I started the thread with an honest opinion, knowing it would provoke debate. Surely debate doesn't necessarily equal flame bait?! I said 'guilty as charged' with tongue firmly in cheek!

I'm a good natured kinda guy, so I like to think that provoking debate doesn't have to generate any bad feeling.

Red · 15 Sep 2002, 14:33 (Ref:380622)

Uff...... regarding to chops. Pablo systematically does it, Coulthard tried that a couple of times in the past. But there is one difference! At least the one we just saw! The plan is NOT to prevent Schumacher from passing, but to keep the position. While the first part was kinda successful, the other wasn't as he lost position to Ralf and also promoted Rubens in 3rd (who was on a 2stopper).

Quote:

Originally posted by mr v
OK, i'll bite, i don't see what the problem was, apart from the start! After that he was struggling with a heavier car, what did you want to see?

Well Mr V, actually Michael Schumacher was on a heavy load as well. But he passed him, on the straigth, and Montoya looked like he had the car parked. I don't say that the result dissapointed me (

), but actually I hoped for a "Melbourne" instead... Or at least to last more than 1 lap...

PS: By the way guys, would you like to make up your minds? Is that "defending his position" or "unethical"?

PPS: Missing chicanes at Monza CAN damage the suspension as the kerbs there are renowned.

garcon · 15 Sep 2002, 14:35 (Ref:380625)

Quote:

Originally posted by mr v
...what was the difference between JPM's hitting the curbs and Michael's hitting the bollard? was it?

a) that the damaged allowed him to carry on?

or

b) that you like Michael but not Juan, so that makes it different?

just curious?

Um. I never said I wasn't biased!

Honestly, there's always a certain amount of luck involved. I thought Montoya allowed the red mist to fall after Rubino went through - nothing he could have done about it - he was nearer Ralf and had to back off - Rubino didn't. And that's why I think JPM tried too hard, missed his entry and hit the chicane harder than the others, which is when he damaged the car, which allowed Michael through.

That's where the luck comes in - you can often make a mistake like that and get away with it - much like you say Michael did in '96 (my memory fails).

I'm not sure JPM is particularly unlucky, but I do know Michael is lucky - nearly two seasons without a retirement!!

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