Welcome to the Unified American Open Wheel Forum

[paul-collins]

Given that, sooner or later, this seems to be the way things will be, our choice is to quit, moan about what once was, or start discussing what will be, and how it might grow from here.

I choose the last option.

Frankly, aesthetically I don't like the Dallaras. I think the DP01s aren't great tools to work with overall, either, although they look better. I like the Cossies, have no opinion on the Hondas as I've not heard them in person. I think new chassis regs will have to come, soon, to encorporate the newer safety requirements (I know the IRL was already considering easier access cockpits, so new tubs are on their way anyway). So, ultimately, new chassis. Hopefully 2 or 3 constructors can be accommodated.

I think the cars as they stand are over-winged.

I think a good option for engines would be to start with LMP2 (Le Mans spec) engines, which provides for varying sizes and configurations (including turbos and diesels!). Just up the target power range from the LMP2 570 to 700 by adjusting the restrictor tables. You might want to consider different specs for oval vs road (more power in road trim) as a ruleset, but only with engine developers' okay - they'd have to provide different maps for different restrictor sizes.

If you need to reduce the speeds on ovals, it is the cornering speed that needs to decrease, not the overall speed. Less downforce (both wing and under-car) and less grip (narrower tires?) might be worth exploring. I think the lower downforce spec would probably help for road racing as well, as then you wouldn't lose as much downforce when you're right behind someone.

On schedules, I'm no big fan of street courses for two reasons - there's no runoff (no margin for error) and fan access is seriously restricted because fans aren't higher than the track. However, if they work from a business perspective (Toronto with Molsons or someone like it; Edmonton with Rexall; Long Beach with Toyota Dealers of Long Beach) then they should survive.

I love road courses, and if Toronto can't survive, I'd like to see Mosport added. I think it would make money and provide great racing. Laguna Seca, Road America, Road Atlanta, Mid Ohio are all part of what I picture as a solid schedule.

On ovals, I worry about ISC ownership and their lack of interest in promoting their current races; strong ties to any and all independent oval owners need to be cultivated. (For the same reason I left Watkins Glen off the road course list.)

I think a slight bias toward oval racing is natural for North American racing - I'd always imagined a 21 race schedule, ultimately, with 10 ovals, 10 road/street courses, and Indy as the crown.

Anyway, have at it! Tell me why I'm crazy...

[icemachine]

Sounds sensible enough to me Paul, the trouble I have is believing that even 1/2 of what you list will come about.

[mountainstar]

Yes, Paul you are crazy, totally insane in fact.

I think the first step is for tony george to be contrite and admit his own role in this mess, say he's sorry and find a way to bring champcar fans into the fold. If he just does a big F U, then it's war.

I know some are going to disagree, because they believe tony is a saint and can do no wrong. But if you really want to bring things back together the fans are a part of that and there is a lot of bad blood in the water.

Personally for me if there is no contrition, then it's civil disobedience for me. I have a hard time being a spectator now anyways now that my own career is moving along. Plus I've got V8 Supercars, ALMS, DTM, A1, Rally, etc to follow. I will get by.

In addition, these cars will live on in historics for years to come and 5-10-15-20 years down the road hopefully I'll be wealthy enough to buy one. I've had an investment fund since 2004 that is solely for purchasing a Lola or Reynard chassis. Like Can-Am or Imsa, the series may die but the history doesn't.

In regards to the cars, the current dallaras are ugly as hell and the honda's are horrible sounding engines. Why this obsession lately with ugly race cars like COT in Nascar? I think they need a new formula and they need to open up the rules to new manufacturers for engines and cars.

I like street courses if done well. Races like Cleveland need to be included. Lanigan turned that race around last year.

[paul-collins]

Civil Disobedience is all well and good, elsewhere, MS.



I don't know if contrition is forthcoming, and I'm unsure it's even necessary in the form you're suggesting. If you can't bring yourself to join in, in good faith, I guess we'll just have to soldier on. All the best.

[gttouring]

welcome to the new Unified series
sounds good
anyone read the last Robin Miller article at speed about Champcar declaring bankruptcy in the next 24 -48 hours
wow how miserable this whole thing has been.

so any potential names for the new series? or will we fall back on the good standard the IndyCar World series? (would that be the "IRL- indycar world series" or just IndyCar?)

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by paul-collins

Civil Disobedience is all well and good, elsewhere, MS.



I don't know if contrition is forthcoming, and I'm unsure it's even necessary in the form you're suggesting. If you can't bring yourself to join in, in good faith, I guess we'll just have to soldier on. All the best.

Oh I'll be here in good faith. Always have been. Indycool's anti-thesis one could say. Keeping the irl on the level. The watchdog of watchdogs.

[Hazza]

I came up with the name "American Open-Wheel" forum.

Alas my other "Ideas" were strictly ignored. So don't worry. You can still wear clothes...for now.

Anyway, i'm just stealing credit for the great name. If you don't like it, forward all calls to my left butt cheek.

[Alex K]

Geezaz MS, get over it, you never had any chance against TG, at least in KKWS era. TG will not apologize anyone, he won that battle and war, if someone doesn't want to jump the fence can always go and watch Atlantics or race atlantics (teams).

I AM HAPPY!!

[JohnSSC]

Paul, Hazza, thanks!

Paul - some good thoughts there - a number of them mirror what ALMS is moving toward. Do you think there might be some difficulty differentiating the two series down the road?

Otherwise, I am all for engine/chassis diversity. what could be more "green" than recycling some offie engines...

[madman16]

No doubt this had to be done. I'm not sure on the whole variety of engines thing, as in petrol/deisel/turbo/non-turbo/bio-fuel. I think they need a set of regs to go forward with. It may start as a single chassis/engine manufacturer but if they're moving towards something it may encourage others to re-enter the series. I think in the long run maybe 2 or 3 engine/chassis combinations is a good thing.

I'm happy for the good street courses to stay. Long Beach, Toronto and Surfers Paradise, Cleveland and even Edmonton now. All provide either good racing or historical significance to the series. Even Surfers has been around for 17 odd years. (wow time flies, i still remember being there watching J. Andretti take the flag in his yellow pennzoil machine)

Without going into the whole war thing, but i fail to see how TG won the war when he is far from operating a successful series himself, but enough of that, that's not what this is for. Hopefully in the very short future we will be commenting on a common series with a common goal.

[climb]

Originally Posted by mountainstar

...
I think the first step is for tony george to be contrite and admit his own role in this mess, say he's sorry and find a way to bring champcar fans into the fold. If he just does a big F U, then it's war.

Once again you identify yourself with a lot of people; whereas it's just your single, personal opinion

Originally Posted by mountainstar

...
I know some are going to disagree, because they believe tony is a saint and can do no wrong. ....

That's what many tend to think after reading your posts; since you make him look like a martyr; blame it (almost) all to yourself, you naughty Al CCaida ultra fan!

[JohnSSC]

No one has won. We all have lost. The only thing we have learned these last 13 or so years is that there should be only one top-tier open wheel series.

I just hope this ends soon...

[JohnSSC]

Anyway - paul, you clearly want to talk about the "what could be" here, so lets do that!

I agree with the aero being too much in play. My take would be to link the amount of aero directly to the size of the motor. The more powerful the engine, the less aero you get.

Tim Northcutt had posted many moons ago his thoughts on keeping the manufacturers at bay regarding engines. One of the things I remember was that the engines should be maintained by the teams rather than the manufacturer to help hold down costs.

I really think what any top tier open wheel series needs in this country is a set of rules that makes innovation possible - and not necessarily by spending cubic dollars. Allow the teams to pick chassis/engine/aero combinations based on what they think will work best for them or will provide the best combination of results over the season.

[madman16]

Originally Posted by JohnSSC

Tim Northcutt had posted many moons ago his thoughts on keeping the manufacturers at bay regarding engines. One of the things I remember was that the engines should be maintained by the teams rather than the manufacturer to help hold down costs.

I really think what any top tier open wheel series needs in this country is a set of rules that makes innovation possible - and not necessarily by spending cubic dollars. Allow the teams to pick chassis/engine/aero combinations based on what they think will work best for them or will provide the best combination of results over the season.

Just two things there. The only prob with the teams maintaining the engines would be that he who spends the most dollars will win. It's ok for the manufacturers to look after the engines but put in the rules that they have to last 2 rounds or something.

One thing i thought CC were on to was with the new panoz it started as a spec chassis and then as time went on, as in this year which looks like it won't, they would open up certain parts of the car to personal development. IMO that's a good idea. Everyone is not spending millions on the whole car throughout the year.

[JohnSSC]

I agree that maintaining engines is an expense, but the way Tim pitched it, the initial cost for the engine would be much lower as the "lease/purchase" from the manufacturer would not include maintenance. Of course, I may not be recalling this correctly, but I believe that to have been the gist of Tim's point.

Spec or not, teams are going to spend a lot on cars as they fine-tune them. Look what Penske does with their cars as far as cleaning them up aerodynamically.

The point to racing is to go fast. At this level a "spec" series is not going to hold down costs necessarily. The teams will just spend the $$ developing a better rear-veiw mirror or something.

Engine/Chassis diversity is one way to bring some interest BACK to open wheel. It should be innovative. You want same car for everyone then there are plenty of series including NASCAR to see that. Open wheel's strength for many years was diversity and at times innovation (see Lotus at Indy). Returning to that mode won't necessarily be a budget-breaker.

[Fish_Flake]

Innovation is the key. If IndyCar wants to attract major automakers to support the series, it must provide a playing field that allows them to showcase new ideas. Tony George wanted to use production engines when he started the IRL, but the problem was that only Oldsmobile and Infiniti were willing to build the engines he wanted for their automobiles. Purpose-built 3-liter V8s have been beaten to the ground in every realm of formula racing, and have almost no relation to any street-legal car on the road; why would any manufacturer put millions of dollars into such a development program?

This is the problem with most single-seater racing series today: changes to the formula are almost always an evolution rather than a revolution. Sanctioning bodies don't want speeds to increase, but they don't want to slow down the cars to a significant degree, either. As a result, rules are implemented as stop-gap solutions to keep lap times stagnant while the equipment continues on its development cycle. Decisions in regard to technology is made looking a year into the future instead of a decade. A new IndyCar formula needs to be allowed to mature over the course of several years. Instead of a new car lapping Indy at around 225 when first introduced (and having to curb development almost immediately to keep top speeds in check), set the formula in such a way that it only laps Indy around 210 or 215 its first time out. Let the car follow its natural development cycle so that it doesn't reach that 225-230 threshold for five or six years after it is phased in.

As for diversity, what about the diversity of drivers? While it's great to see Formula Atlantic thriving despite the struggles of its parent, I have great concern over the vertical integration that is prevalent in both Formula 1 and American open-wheel: the only path to a top-level single-seater ride is to start out in karts, then take each step up the appropriate feeder series ladder.

It used to be that top-level single-seater racing featured the best drivers from all disciplines competing against each other. Out of the three drivers who have won the Indy 500 four times, one had a background as a midget-car driver, one a hillclimber, and one an off-road racer. Many of the American drivers who emerged in the 80s and early 90s made their way to CART through IMSA sports cars. When the split occurred, CART could claim America's greatest motorcycle road racer as a competitor, and the IRL could claim America's greatest motocross rider. The Villeneuves were originally a family of snowmobilers. Mario Andretti began his career in modified stock cars. Danny Ongais started out as a drag racer.

For the most part, this role that IndyCar played in attracting great racers of every kind has been swallowed up by NASCAR. They are the ones drawing in the young drivers making a name for themselves in sprint cars, in off-road vehicles, in sports cars, on motocross bikes, and even in the open-wheel ranks, all the while still finding room to accommodate those coming up the more traditional stock car ladder. When IndyCar reestablishes itself, it needs to find a way to lure those drivers back.

[JohnSSC]

Great post, Fish_Flake!

[madman16]

I gotta say i agree with most of that. I do believe they do have to find a way to keep costs down though while the series is in the initial regrowth stage. I don't know the answer and i don't think it will be easy.

The last part is definitely true. I still think a lot to do with the struggle of both series is the lack of American drivers. More so a lack of American drivers with a genuine chance of winning. Now that Hornish is gone from the IRL, besides Andretti it is pretty thin. Danica is good but is never going to be great IMO. And about the only driver CC has to offer is Rahal.

I still want to see Power v Briscoe v Dixon. Yaaah for Oz.

Al Unser junior has about 14 kids, can we get any of them in there

[climb]

Yes I think, too, that AOWR must increase their US identity. That's why I think that CC was taking a wrong direction.

[Xpunk75]

If V8's are getting old, lets do something real crazy like make them run Bio Diesel engines that are turbo charged, or 4 Cylinder Turbo's, or Hybrid Engines, something crazy that will attract auto makers and the public.

[Fish_Flake]

About engines: the thing that must be remembered is that since World War I, a period of over ninety years, American championship racing has seen only three epochs of engine development, using the cars of the Indianapolis 500 as a benchmark. If one uses the lineage of what is now Champ Car, that number is just two, and if one wants to be truly comprehensive and include the old SCCA Formula A/Formula 5000/single-seater Can Am championships, the total can be stretched out to four. In addition, each era can be characterized by one or two manufacturers who came to dominate the sport at that time.

Engine Eras in American Championship Racing, 1919-Present

• Miller/Offenhauser, 4.1L atmospheric [later turbocharged] inline-4 (AAA/USAC, 1921-1976)
• Chevrolet, 4.9L atmospheric V-8 (SCCA, 1967-1986)
• Cosworth/Ilmor, 2.65L turbocharged V-8 (USAC/Champ Car, 1977-present; IRL, 1996)
• Aurora/Honda, 3.0-4.0L atmospheric V-8 (IRL, 1997-present)

Compare this to Grand Prix racing, which has seen no fewer than eight such eras, only one of which featuring the hegemony seen in the IndyCar eras.

Engine Eras in Grand Prix Racing, 1919-Present

• Open formula, classification based on weight (AIACR, 1919-1937)
• 4.5L atmospheric or 3.0L [later 1.5L] supercharged open configuration (AIACR/FIA, 1938-1951)
• 2.5L atmospheric open configuration (FIA, 1954-1960)
• 1.5L atmospheric open configuration (FIA, 1961-1966)
• Cosworth, 3.0L atmospheric V-8 (FIA, 1967-1982)
• 1.5L turbocharged V-6 or inline-4 (FIA, 1979-1988)
• 3.0-3.5L atmospheric V-10 (FIA, 1989-2005)
• 2.4L atmospheric V-8 (FIA, 2006-present)

Beyond engines, another thing that IndyCar has to do is bridge the gap between itself and sprint car racing. This was one of the IRL's founding goals, but attempts to achieve this have resulted in complete failure up to now. Contrary to popular belief, today's distance isn't because Indy and Champ Car turned its back on the short tracks: the fact is that over the last forty years, the design of the IndyCar has changed significantly, while the design of the sprint and midget car has stayed the same, mostly because USAC has refused it to follow suit. With the exception of roll cages, there isn't much difference between the sprints and midgets competing in USAC-aligned (read: wingless) series today to the ones competing in the 1950s, while the wing is only thing distinguishing World of Outlaws-aligned cars from USAC cars.

Adding to this is the fact that USAC has completely lost the plot on the Silver Crown series in an atrocious attempt to redesign the big cars to be suitable for mile and a half cookie-cutter ovals. I mean, just look at this thing. What sort of loving God would bestow upon us such a monstrosity? As one could expect, this car proved to be completely unsafe for larger tracks, and USAC is pulling the plug on it for 2008 due to its universal repugnance among fans and competitors.

Actually, the idea of redesigning the Silver Crown cars -- originally meant to fill the middle ground between short-track cars and IndyCars -- wasn't a bad one, but USAC completely messed up the execution by trying to ride on NASCAR's coattails. If I were in charge of a unified IndyCar series on the upswing, I would view the sprint car community's inability to firmly position itself within the stock car feeder system as room for opportunity. I would approach USAC, the World of Outlaws, and the various regional sanctioning bodies for supermodified racing to propose a joint venture between IndyCar and those series with the mission of building a new generation of short-track car: a sleeker, safer, affordable machine designed for paved ovals over a half-mile long and dirt fairground miles. These cars would be featured on the bill of every IndyCar short oval event (which there would be at least four or five), with a scholarship to the top rung of the development ladder going to the overall champion of the division, either the points leader of a national series or the winner of an end-of-season runoff consisting of the top finishers from regional series.

[Bob Riebe]

Your engine categories for AAA/USAC/ CART are totally screwed up.
They are as general in regs. as what you list for F1--you are being myoptic.

They killed the Silver Crown crapmobiles--HIP-HIP-HOOOOOOORAAAAAAAY!
Bob

[Fish_Flake]

Originally Posted by Bob Riebe

Your engine categories for AAA/USAC/ CART are totally screwed up.
They are as general in regs. as what you list for F1--you are being myoptic.

They killed the Silver Crown crapmobiles--HIP-HIP-HOOOOOOORAAAAAAAY!
Bob

I'm aware of the fact that regulations over the years have been broader than the ones I list here, and that other suppliers than the ones listed have seen competition. The point I was trying to get across with the list is despite the fact that other manufacturers and other engine configurations have been available over the years, the ones listed proved to be so dominant that they were prerequisite for success at Indy and on the Championship Trail. With the exception of the Cosworth DFV, Grand Prix racing has never seen such a period of time where the only way a team could win races was to possess a particular engine design. Champ Car has competing with evolutions of the same design for over three decades now, and people who want to see that formula established as the norm should realize that its time has come and gone. Meanwhile, the IRL formula leaves much to be desired, and the only conclusion to come to is that a new IndyCar needs to take a step in a new direction in the engine department.

[gttouring]

although i feel and many do the Turbo sound is better, the technology is more relevant to future autos from all marques and they can't be ignored.
as far as silver crown goes
yes the Supermods should be aligned to take their place, the look is better the racing is furious, and they can be aligned to get that engine less left bias for longer tracks to accompany the circus to Milwaukee, they race at phoenix and lap faster than IRL cars did....
and for the road racers there is Atlantics, ans IPS as Indylights and toyotaa atlantics before...
this unification can create great things again

[Bob Riebe]

Originally Posted by Fish_Flake

I'm aware of the fact that regulations over the years have been broader than the ones I list here, and that other suppliers than the ones listed have seen competition. The point I was trying to get across with the list is despite the fact that other manufacturers and other engine configurations have been available over the years, the ones listed proved to be so dominant that they were prerequisite for success at Indy and on the Championship Trail. With the exception of the Cosworth DFV, Grand Prix racing has never seen such a period of time where the only way a team could win races was to possess a particular engine design. Champ Car has competing with evolutions of the same design for over three decades now, and people who want to see that formula established as the norm should realize that its time has come and gone. Meanwhile, the IRL formula leaves much to be desired, and the only conclusion to come to is that a new IndyCar needs to take a step in a new direction in the engine department.

Until the put a blower on the Offy the Ford DOHC was Dominating the show.