[Official] Hungarian Grand Prix 2015 - Weekend Thread

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by mikuni

It was clumsy on both parts.

Daniel came from waaaay back and just threw it in. It was a little bit ridiculous, and Nico actually took avoiding action entering the corner to avoid Daniel. It could have been an entry incident if not for this.

This is Daniel's party trick though, so he actually managed to gather it up and get the thing turned in. I think this surprised Nico who was taking the ideal line through the corner, not expecting Daniel to be exiting the corner so quickly.

The first mistake was Daniels. One could argue Nico should have left racing room, however I genuinely don't think he thought Daniel would be there, and we know Nico wouldn't have been able to see Daniel from the angle he was approaching.

At the end of the day, some level of fault lay with both parties, be it differing levels depending on how you view it. But, both parties were punished, Nico a little more so than Daniel (through the damage incurred).

I agree with pretty much all of this. If I was to add anything, it would be that when said and done, as it punished Nico more than Daniel and I think that happened in the wrong order as I think Daniel is more at fault than Nico. It was a poor move that had no real chance of succeeding that triggered this.

Richard

[S griffin]

I'm gonna go with general consensus that it was a 50/50 racing accident

[chillibowl]

Originally Posted by mikuni

....Nico who was taking the ideal line through the corner, not expecting Daniel to be exiting the corner so quickly....we know Nico wouldn't have been able to see Daniel from the angle he was approaching...

this is neither here nor there as i also agree that this was a racing incident with some fault on both drivers, but i do think NR had to have known DR was going to be there.

with basically only 1 overtake place at this track and the fact that DR was using the late brake line to set up for turn 2 for every pass he made all race surely at the very least NR's race engineer should have/would have told him to expect that move if in fact NR didnt realize it for himself first no?

[coln72]

[QUOTE

with basically only 1 overtake place at this track and the fact that DR was using the late brake line to set up for turn 2 for every pass he made all race surely at the very least NR's race engineer should have/would have told him to expect that move if in fact NR didnt realize it for himself first no?[/QUOTE]

I think Nico knew he was there, that's why he tried to slam the door so quickly on DR. With the extra downforce and with the soft tyres, DR would of sailed off into the distance if he was able to keep the inside line for turn 2 and make the pass.

I still feel that Nico was trying to intimidate DR into going wide or backing off (the usual Merc tactic) but with nothing really to loose, DR wasn't intimidated and the rest is history.

[wnut]

Originally Posted by coln72

with basically only 1 overtake place at this track and the fact that DR was using the late brake line to set up for turn 2 for every pass he made all race surely at the very least NR's race engineer should have/would have told him to expect that move if in fact NR didnt realize it for himself first no?

I think Nico knew he was there, that's why he tried to slam the door so quickly on DR. With the extra downforce and with the soft tyres, DR would of sailed off into the distance if he was able to keep the inside line for turn 2 and make the pass.

I still feel that Nico was trying to intimidate DR into going wide or backing off (the usual Merc tactic) but with nothing really to loose, DR wasn't intimidated and the rest is history.

So that would fit deliberately making avoidable contact on the part of Ricciardo?

[coln72]

Originally Posted by wnut

So that would fit deliberately making avoidable contact on the part of Ricciardo?

About as much as Nico's - hence a racing incident

[Mixer]

Originally Posted by wnut

So that would fit deliberately making avoidable contact on the part of Ricciardo?

This assertion is just not supported by any facts.

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by Mixer

This assertion is just not supported by any facts.

I get that you appear to be a Daniel fan and all, but a strong case can be made that Daniel was in the wrong. And to be clear, I actually like Daniel and am ambivalent toward Nico.

Watch the video you provided, but instead of focusing on Daniel and Nico on exit, look at the track position and line of the Ferrari just ahead of Daniel and Nico. Note that the Ferrari tracks out to the very edge of the track (left wheels on white line). This would be a normal line. In fact the Ferrari tracks out much more to the left and even before the place that Nico and Daniel eventually collide (more to the right and a tiny bit further down the track).

So while Nico does not leave an entire cars width, he does not track out as far as he might usually. Lastly Daniel was the overtaking car, out of position on track and generally behind Nico when he hit Nico. Now you could say that "Nico hit Daniel and not the other way around!". That is like using the logic that if a car had an off and re-enters the track, but enters into the racing line along side another car that it is the other cars fault if there is a collision? Daniel should have backed off given he was behind and already two full wheels off, but rather he kept his foot in it, re-entering the track where other cars track out. Where did Daniel think Nico was?

So why do I not fully blame Daniel? While I think Nico likely had the right to be where he was, he did put his car into a place on track that Daniel might been stupid/brave/crazy enough (pick your poison) to try to be. In short Nico should have given just a bit more room to protect himself from Daniel maybe being there. How much would have been sufficient? Inches maybe?

On the flip side, to have given Daniel more room would have meant to have given up on that turn to be slow enough to take a tighter line on exit. In effect, he would had to have given up the position the moment Daniel dive bombed him with his brakes locked up and sacrificed any real exit speed and the run up to the next turn. Rather he tried to keep his exit speed up by using a normal line that would also have blocked Daniel on exit and maybe for the next turn.

Actually the more I think about this, the more I think Nico maybe did exactly what he should have done! It just worked out poorly for him.

Richard

[S griffin]

Originally Posted by Born Racer

Glad to see not too much came of Hulkenberg's front wing collapse.

I immediately thought back to Schumacher losing the other wing at the same place in 92.

[Greem]

Without the benefit of hindsight and endless slow-mo replays, my immediate thought (wearing my marshalling hat) in regard to this incident was 'racing incident, no blame apportioned'.

Sometimes, due to the hairs-breadth millisecond timing of top-line racing, things *just happen*. Sure, there are plenty of arguments either way but the bottom line is that it was all over and done with in a couple of seconds; an inch here, a millisecond there and the outcome would have been different.

But it wasn't. There was contact, and I was glad to see the stewards agree with me on that one.

[Born Racer]

Originally Posted by Richard Casto

I get that you appear to be a Daniel fan and all, but a strong case can be made that Daniel was in the wrong. And to be clear, I actually like Daniel and am ambivalent toward Nico.

Watch the video you provided, but instead of focusing on Daniel and Nico on exit, look at the track position and line of the Ferrari just ahead of Daniel and Nico. Note that the Ferrari tracks out to the very edge of the track (left wheels on white line). This would be a normal line. In fact the Ferrari tracks out much more to the left and even before the place that Nico and Daniel eventually collide (more to the right and a tiny bit further down the track).

So while Nico does not leave an entire cars width, he does not track out as far as he might usually. Lastly Daniel was the overtaking car, out of position on track and generally behind Nico when he hit Nico. Now you could say that "Nico hit Daniel and not the other way around!". That is like using the logic that if a car had an off and re-enters the track, but enters into the racing line along side another car that it is the other cars fault if there is a collision? Daniel should have backed off given he was behind and already two full wheels off, but rather he kept his foot in it, re-entering the track where other cars track out. Where did Daniel think Nico was?

So why do I not fully blame Daniel? While I think Nico likely had the right to be where he was, he did put his car into a place on track that Daniel might been stupid/brave/crazy enough (pick your poison) to try to be. In short Nico should have given just a bit more room to protect himself from Daniel maybe being there. How much would have been sufficient? Inches maybe?

On the flip side, to have given Daniel more room would have meant to have given up on that turn to be slow enough to take a tighter line on exit. In effect, he would had to have given up the position the moment Daniel dive bombed him with his brakes locked up and sacrificed any real exit speed and the run up to the next turn. Rather he tried to keep his exit speed up by using a normal line that would also have blocked Daniel on exit and maybe for the next turn.

Actually the more I think about this, the more I think Nico maybe did exactly what he should have done! It just worked out poorly for him.

Richard

I think this is a very well-reasoned post, Richard and demonstrates the various factors at play in wheel-to-wheel battles, self-preservation versus attack and keeping your position in the moment versus setting yourself up for the next corner and sacrificing something in the current one. It demonstrates the fine margins these things hang on and probably suggests 'racing incident'. When battles are analysed to the nth degree, it's something that drivers can learn from in terms of thinking how they would handle such situations in the future, but it also shows that there's no easily apportionable 'blame' and it's arguably not penalty-worthy.

It depends on how penalty-happy people think stewards should be.