Yellow Flags

[graeme]

Originally Posted by Stephen Green

A red flag should always go back to the last completed lap for results!

It's actually back to the the last lap completed by the leaders - then back another one. This is because the leader may have just crossed the line and the rest of the field would be shown to be on a different lap. This means the race can be counted back nearly two laps.

I therefore don't have much issue with overtaking under reds - more so banging on the brakes for no apparant reason (when I first started racing a red went out at Mallory Esses and the guy I was slipstreaming banged on the brakes to turn into the paddock - the incident was at Gerards - with my inexperience at dealing with CoCs, I got the blame for hitting him up the rear and the endorsement :E )

If you do feel aggreved about yellow flags, DO go (and calmly) see the CoC - often they can't/won't do anything, but
a) it makes you feel better
b) let's the CoC know that everything wasn't perfect out there

[275 GTB-4]

Originally Posted by Bob Pearson

275, I think you have answered your own question, "so engrossed in what they were doing". In single seaters on the first lap of a race most of the navigating (except for the man leading) is done by peering between the engine cover and the wing end plates of the guy you are trying to pass in front, while watching in your mirrors for the guy behind who is trying to do the same to you. In this frenzy of eyes scanning from mirrors to the restricted vision ahead we are also looking for braking points and trying to see a couple of car lengths to get some advanced warning of any incident beginning to unfold. Its not like driving to work. Drivers don't mean to miss any flag, especially a red as there is absolutely nothing to gain. I suspect the race you refer to was at Snett last weekend. The problem was triggered by the inexperience of the leaders who braked hard at the first sight of the reds so forcing many of the following drivers to overtake rather than also brake hard and risk impact from behind, certainly that was the decision I made. The matter is to be discussed at the next drivers briefing ( so I understand)

Bob...I am in Australia, a fair from Snett. and sorry, but your words are bordering on patronising. This was an incident well into the body of the race, the field was well strung out and the usual front runners were jockying for position.

So over a distance of about a kilometre with 4-5 Flag Points VERY close to the track....this lot just lost the plot. I don't want to labour the point, just highlight the need to include awareness of Flags in the overall scheme of things....it is in your best interests and for your safety.

[Mark Mitchell]

Originally Posted by Ian Sowman

...there are circumstances when a red flag is shown and it is safer for a driver to maintain his momentum and pass a car rather than slow very suddenly, which may - and indeed has in the past - led to a very serious incident.

Indeed, but this is open to abuse!
I reported a car for passing at least three other cars whilst under a red flag situation.
The car in question was travelling at "Considerably" greater speed than others and had passed five red flags (That I could see from my viewpoint).

The driver told the Clerk that it was safer to maintain his speed rather than back off.............and the Clerk bought it!

(For info...........red flags are out............I see car coming over "Hilltop" at Oulton (I'm at Knickerbrook) and watch it travel at speed, overtaking others all the way up to Clayhill........a total of 5 flag points!)

The clerk told me that other drivers had "Sided" with the offender and so his hands were tied.

As an Observer, I thought "What's The Point?"

[BrendanM]

It is interesting to note that Red flags in a bike race get a much speedier response than a car race. May be it is because there is an electric device in the seat ? OR maybe becuase the riders now that next time it may be them in the tyres / gravel / trees needing assistance from chaps in orange.

But we would benefit (racers / marshals) from consistancy of response in everything from using the flags, respecting them and dealing with 'offenders'.

</$0.02>

[Dave Brand]

Originally Posted by BrendanM

OR maybe becuase the riders now that next time it may be them in the tyres / gravel / trees needing assistance from chaps in orange.

I suspect that may be the reason! It also seems to me that bike riders are better at slowing down for yellows......

[archaic gold]

Originally Posted by Dave Brand

I suspect that may be the reason! It also seems to me that bike riders are better at slowing down for yellows......

Yes, I think that bikers have a better vision than car racers, in that, I accept I have never RACED a SS, but I have been on Track in quite wet, Drizzly, (DEC), conditions, and I was lucky to see the car in front through spray, hence rear-guard lights!!
I am compaigning where the Flag Marshal sits in a box at the side of the track and commands the corner with a series of lights set close to the track.
These can be brighter than Flags!!!, safer near a Track, (no human body in the firing line!), and less excuse for missing signals. HOWEVER, to get the MSA to accept this, and the Circuit Owners to fund it; is a different matter.
But, with the falling of volunteer Marshals, this may be the only road to go down!!

[GordonG]

There are yellow and red lights on the back straight at Silverstone club IIRC. Almost impossible to see in bright sunlight - several times I've driven down the straight wondering are they or arent they on? I'm sure there must be design/technology to make this work, but it's not trivial.

G

[Notso Swift]

For Me, Lights don't show the urgency of a situation the way a waved flag does, but it would be a good back up and it is easier to have closer to the racing line/natural vision line.
If that were to draw attention to the flaggie I wouldn't be a bad thing... mind you as a driver I don't understand how people can miss more than one flag in a row anyway

[Peter Mallett]

There are lights at Eau Rouge at spa and you do see them. There are similar lights at Copse but I don't think they use them during a race (unlike spa) just for test days when marshals aren't so numerous.

[Eddy V]

Peter, the driver missing those lights at Eau Rouge must be more than blind.

And still some claim they didn't see them.

[Peter Mallett]

Eddy.

In truth your eyes are so wide open when you enter Eau Rouge you see just about everything!

For the uninitiated, you keep your eyes open that wide because you're never going to see an accident as big as the one you think you're heading for.

[alf]

I think lights are the way forward, no question, perhaps they may need to be angled or shielded to prevent influence from the sun but as you drive under a gantry with lights on it you are going to see the lights more often than not ( we are in England, well some of us are!!!) in poor weather what are you going to see clearest? a flag waved at the side of the track, sometimes many yards away or lights shining above you? also I was at cadwell recently and i watched a very dirt waved yellow flag disssapear as if camoflaged by the foliage around it at the top of the mountain. a driver had a spin the flags came out but the cars following couldn't possibly, and didn't see them, and 2 cars were very badly damaged!!!

had there been lights there there would be no excuse.

also while racing at donington recently i watched a car in front, overshoot the chicane, alowing me to pass. there were waved yellows at redgate, on the craners and at macleans. Even though this driver had to stop, turn rejoin the track and build up speed, he still caught me up by macleans ( then drove into me!!!!) simply because I had observed the yellows and slowed down ( and always will), he clearly couldn't have done, yet nothing was done about it.


grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

[Woolley]

...until water gets into the electrics, the fuse blows, the bulb gives way, a car takes the electrics out...

Flags, especially when clean, work every time and allow the marshals to communicate. Lights are on, off or flashing, or maybe not if as descrived above.

[midgetman]

>>>>>...until water gets into the electrics, the fuse blows, the bulb gives way, a car takes the electrics out...

All of which could happen to the traffic lights on the way to work but no, damned things keep holding me up 24/7, 365 days per year. Grrrrrrrr.

Serious point, this is 2006 not 1906 and things tend to work better than they used to so that's not really a worry. There may be other good reasons not to use lights, but reliability in a bespoke, properly installed system isn't one of them.

[Eddy V]

Originally Posted by Peter Mallett

In truth your eyes are so wide open when you enter Eau Rouge you see just about everything!

Not that sure Peter, I used to keep 'em firmly shut with the old Eau Rouge.


The stone walls were very close to the track in the old days.

[alf]

Originally Posted by Woolley

...until water gets into the electrics, the fuse blows, the bulb gives way, a car takes the electrics out...

Flags, especially when clean, work every time and allow the marshals to communicate. Lights are on, off or flashing, or maybe not if as descrived above.

flags were the best we could do years ago.
in the high tech world of motor sports a set of fully functioning waterproof lights are not the most difficult things to create, and as I said hung under a gantry like we have already at many tracks world wide already, it would be pretty difficult for a car to hit them ( although Peter Dumbreck may have a pop in that mercedes of his!!!!!)

like the other chap says quite rightly above, traffic lights on the road work virtualy faultlessly, so its not a great argument

[DougK]

Firstly , I agree with Stephen on this - The "professional drivers" give a bad impression to everyone else. I find it very bad that F1 has a different set of rules aimed at them and so others assume they can do the same. IMO they should not be allowed to put 4 wheels over white lines, proceed at what appears normal speed (or faster!) through yeallow flags and basically get up to all sorts of things that are not allowed in other racing events. They need to put a stop to this really and insist certainly under yellow flags that they slow down considerably (i would suggest 2/3rds to 1/2 normal racing speed minimum). Similarly at club / national events the CoC should impress what they deem as sufficient slowing.

Secondly the siting of marshals posts is often bizzare. Flag posts need to be in the drivers line of view as they reach a corner. Though this may not be the "safest" place, it certainly is the safest place for drivers to see them. The current trend of moving marshals and posts further and further back from the circuit makes it hardy for drivers to spot the flags. Lights I don't think will work - they will fail (i.e. break)as circuits cannot seem to keep commuication lines in order let alone more electronic devices. I suspect lights will be left on in error on many occasssion too. A flag can and is removed instantly as its an automatic reaction.

[dtype38]

There are a whole load of great big gantry mounted light boards along the sides of British motorways that seem to be rarely used. Even when they are, the messages appear to be taken out of Chistmas crackers and fortune cookies. Perhaps if MSV put in a bid, the govenment would be happy to get rid of that particular set of white elephants and we could have some really great signage around our race tracks. A great big board over the finish line at Cadwell saying "Car 10, you are on fire! pull off the track at the nearest convenient marshall post!" or "LAST LAP" in one foot tall illuminated letters would be better than the little boards they use at the mo. Mind you, I wouldn't be impressed if they put one over the start line at Brands that said "Turn Right"

[GordonG]

this is all about to get silly, I can tell.

But, a bunch of guys in Orange every few hundred yards down the motorway with a selection of brightly coloured flags. That would work well.

The white would get used a lot on weekends for the middle lane morons. Waved blues for the guys hogging the overtaking lane. Black and white for tailgaters.

See, it all works.

G

[dtype38]

Originally Posted by GordonG

But, a bunch of guys in Orange every few hundred yards down the motorway with a selection of brightly coloured flags. That would work well.

That's a terrible idea.... they'd all get run over! At least let them stand on the grass verge

[Peter Mallett]

Ah but you didn't have lights then either.

[beefy]

I have seen occasions where yellow repeater lights (such as those at Castle Combe) being left on after an incident. Whilst there should be someone responsible for them, human nature meant that they were forgotten and things got a little confusing. It's not as easy to forget you're waving a flag, not least because your arm starts to ache after a while!

[alf]

ref the argument that " the light s would fail etc"
this is a bit sloppy minded if you think about it?
we turn up in our cars and are ( quite rightly) expected to present them in a manor "fit" for racing.
should the circuits not be the same?

things only fail if they are not maintained properly.
lets concider the reason for flags or lights etc.
safety
if the circuit can not guarantee with any degree of certainty, they should be fined or refused a licence. in this day and age with joe public on track days etc most circuits are booked pretty solidly most weeks. please don't tell me they can't afford it??

the guy earlier said it best when he refered to marshal points being in the wrong place. agreed off line is out of the drivers sight line especialy if he is mixing it with a pack of other cars, checking over each shoulder for the lads behind, and seeking any slight passing possibility, there is enough to be concentrating on without having to try and make out a dirty yellow flag not leastif its P****ing down. a heads up display / light gantry right over your head is the perfect solution, marshals dont get hit, drivers see them every time.

example who has ever missed the lights on the bridge at silverstone???

exactly.

the more i think of it the more I feel we should lobby the msa to force proper lights on to the circuits.
every year we get an extra £2-£400 winter bill in " new regulations" how about the tracks do the same. it all about safety, this time the drivers benefit without getting their wallets out.

[Grandslammer]

The secondary back-up yellow lights at Combe can sometimes become a distraction for the wrong reasons,forget to turn on /off.
I'm usually treble checking the lights after an incident ,I suppose the push on,pull off system could be improved

[Chigley]

Alf, speaking as a flaggie how am I going to communicate to you the seriousness of the incident that is around a blind bend that you are approaching flat out if all I have is a light that will either stay steadily on or flash at a predetermined rate.

With a flag it can be held dead stationary, shaken vigorously if I really want you to see it before getting to the waved yellow zone; lazily wave a yellow e.g. when approaching the start line after the formation lap or turn myself into a demented whirlwind if the track is nigh on blocked, drivers/marshals/cars everywhere and I need you to hit the anchors hard, throw out the chute, engage reverse.....etc; a set of steadily flashing lights doesn't have that versatility despite what Patrick Head, or Bernie and Co think.

Agreed flags should always be clean and bright, and these days’ fluorescent colours are available in all hues.

Ian