Ralt RT3 participation (and CF3 discussion)

[hotracer]

Why not allow Ralt RT3 to compete ? There are a number of these classic cars around. I have one and would and have to run in Monoposto with a vauxhall engine. I have a spiess engine and the car can be converted to flat bottom spec if needed. However lap times seem no different to middle ranking Classic f3 times in downforce mode. So why exempt the RT3 ?

[Lola]

You dont have to run with a vauxhall engine in mono. My mate runs one with an Rs2000 engine. I have a Reynard 883 with a vw Brabham. To keep it simple and use the same engine mounts/adaptor plates i have fitted a VW 2.0l 16v. Fits ok.
As for classic F3 not allowing RT3 to enter is sad. The series could do with a few extra cars. Make them carry ballast to equal things out.

[B. Honnorat]

It is possible to race in French F3Classic serie with a F3 2 liters Ralt RT3. The Trophy is open to F3 1600cc and 2000cc pre 1984 (1984 included) in original spécification, i.e mechanical injection,air restrictor etc.. but flat bottom !. We use Avon tyres.
2002 schedule is already disponible. Race at Dijon, Spa, Pau!!!!, Ledenon, Croix en Ternois, Le Vigeant, Nogaro.
Many différents chassis with Martini, Ralt, Ensign, Dallara, March, Tecno, Argo, Anson, Alpine, Duqueine, etc...
Engines: VW Brabham, Alfa Nova, Toy Nova

[The Swede]

You can also race in Sweden, Denmark and Norway with historic F3 up to 1990 according original spec, Appendix K and flat bottom.
Usaually 5 races in each country.

Sweden: http://www.rhkswe.org/
Denmark: http://www.hms.dk/
Norway: http://www.historisk-racing.no/

Come an try it!

[andrewc]

Mono Classic:

5.5.2 MONO CLASSIC 2000 a) Chassis complying with 5.5.1 a) of aluminium alloy and / or steel construction where the manufacturers designated model year is 1998 or earlier; or 1999 or earlier in the case of chassis built to comply with the Renault Sport Manual;
b) Chassis complying with 5.5.1 a) of carbon fibre composite or aluminium alloy construction originally complying, or derived from those originally complying, with FIA Formula 3 and identified by the manufacturer as for the model year 1992 or earlier.

And either an iron block, non VVT road derived engine or

MONO CLASSIC 2000: ENGINES OF MANUFACTURE AND MODEL AS USED IN FIA INTERNATIONAL FORMULA 3 DURING 1992 OR EARLIER HAVING A 25 MILLIMETER MAXIMUM DIAMETER AIR RESTRICTOR THROUGH WHICH ALL AIR SERVING THE INDUCTION IS PASSED.

[delta]

Be patient Hot racer.There is a lot of talk going on and it could work out in your favour

[Matthew Sturmer]

[I] hope not as it would render a lot of other cars obsolete and devalue alot of the existing field. As has been discussed extensivley elsewhere the bigger question is how to get more cars out regularly that comply with the existing regs not change the regs to attract new cars and lose the existing field due to obselesance and still be in exactly the same position as now...........

[delta]

How come letting in later cars works so well for our French friends Mathew.Don't forget I'm one of those who would suffer letting in later cars but something needs to be done ,and sooner than later.

[Alan Morgan]

I don't think that a rocker-suspended RT3 with a flat bottom kit would be inherently qiucker than a wide-nosed car like a 793 or an Argo. I worked in the design office at Ralt (briefly) whilst the RT3 was being designed. Ron Tauranac had very clear ideas of what was needed to make ground effect work, and the whole car was optimised to ensure the sidepods worked properly. With a flat bottom, all that optimisation counts for nothing.

I'll email Ron to see if he agrees.

[grantp]

Originally Posted by delta

Be patient Hot racer.There is a lot of talk going on and it could work out in your favour

The subject has waited nearly 9 years already Iain!

Is there a thread running to keep track of old post re-incarnations?

Edit: Having discovered this post and followed the link it occurred to me that my previous comments, written in all innocence and ignorance of later news, might have seemed inappropriate rather than humorous as intended. So I binned them, leaving just the part that relates to the re-appearance of old posts.

[Matthew Sturmer]

My concern is that to make any real difference to numbers we would also have to let in the VW engine as well as the RT3. From what I understand this package is a step forward from where we are now.

[jamesl]

Allowing in 8 valve VW motors would increase engine availability and reduce costs. What year was the VW engine first used in F3?

[The Swede]

Matthew: What is so special about VW engines and RT3?

[ralt-racer]

Originally Posted by Matthew Sturmer

My concern is that to make any real difference to numbers we would also have to let in the VW engine as well as the RT3. From what I understand this package is a step forward from where we are now.

I agree with you Matthew I used to run the 8v vw in ARP and a good one will have 20bhp more that a toyota. Another point is the reliability of the vw they are a nusance. We ran them for 4 years and got through 4 engines in that time not including the end of year rebuilds. I beleve the problem with them is that they are tuned to the absoloute maximum the engine is capable of. Scince I have been running the toyota we have only had one major problem which was down to old components.

As for the Ralt I think they are basically a better design than the Marches Argos etc and a good amount of it is down to the aero but not all of it. Even with flat bottom I think they could be develpoed to be a better car.

Benn

[delta]

OK so we leave things as they are.Whats the answer?.I here the HSCC are having a stand alone 1600 F3 race next year. GREAT. Why are there so few 1600 cars racing in Classic F3. Where have they all gone. I can remember them having their own races back in the 90's with good grids.

[Alan Morgan]

I don't think the HSCC are planning a stand-alone race yet. They're hoping for 10-20 1600 cars to appear eventually alongside the 2 Litre cars. I really hope they succeed, 1600 F3 cars are amongst the prettiest wings and slicks cars out there. They're inviting anyone to bring their 1600 car to Brands on 11th September (regardless of completeness/condition) in return for free admission.

Despite the wings, they didn't have a huge amount of downforce...

[ralt-racer]

Originally Posted by Alan Morgan

I don't think the HSCC are planning a stand-alone race yet. They're hoping for 10-20 1600 cars to appear eventually alongside the 2 Litre cars. I really hope they succeed, 1600 F3 cars are amongst the prettiest wings and slicks cars out there. They're inviting anyone to bring their 1600 car to Brands on 11th September (regardless of completeness/condition) in return for free admission.

Despite the wings, they didn't have a huge amount of downforce...

Great Pic alan Cadwell I assume??

It would be interesting to hear what Ron thinks.

In ARP they insited the RT3 had to be flat bottomed as they were too fast for the 90's era cars..

I hope they can get more 1600 f3's out as well as 2l F3s

Benn

[Alan Morgan]

Correct - that's Cadwell. Ron's reply didn't really give a definite answer. He says the VW engine was a lot lighter than the Toyota, with a lower cg, so it was hard to get a definite idea of their relative performance power-wise as the RT3 was designed for the VW, and was overweight with the Toyota.

In terms of chassis performance, it's probably easiest to quote what he said in his email (I think he's basically saying that a flat-bottomed RT3 is similar chassis-wise to the RT1)

The original RT1 rear suspension had the lower wishbone front link feeding its load into the outer Tub skin, about 1978 I moved this link inboard so that the wishbone pivot line was parallel to the car centerline instead of being angled outwards. The angled outward line increased the roll couple when cornering, when this line was moved in the rear anti roll bar was reduced in strength thereby putting the power down better. All RT3 cars had the later suspension geometry. When converting a ground effect RT3 to flat bottom you would need to reduce the spring rate.

This is all academic though, because the HSCC will not be admitting the RT3 in the forseeable future...

[jamesl]

After doing some googling, I have read on another forum that the 8 valve VW Spiess engine was first used in German F3 in 1979 ... not sure if this is 100% accurate, but if it were true, would this make the VW engine eligible for CF3?

[schuey57]

coming from personnal experience I would say Some were fed up with being under powered, even with the unregulated inv ff2000's, maybe get a hot shoe in and drive one and show how they can beat some 2ltr cars.

if I had a choice of car to run in cf3 it would be the inv super-vee, with more power than the f3.

[The Swede]

Originally Posted by ralt-racer

... I used to run the 8v vw in ARP and a good one will have 20bhp more that a toyota. Another point is the reliability of the vw they are a nusance. We ran them for 4 years and got through 4 engines in that time not including the end of year rebuilds. I beleve the problem with them is that they are tuned to the absoloute maximum the engine is capable of. Scince I have been running the toyota we have only had one major problem which was down to old components.

OK, if there are problems if you tune the 8v VW to much to get out the last 20 bhp, then don't, and it will probably last longer and be more equal with Toyotas!

The ideé must be to get more cars on the grid!

[ralt-racer]

Originally Posted by The Swede

OK, if there are problems if you tune the 8v VW to much to get out the last 20 bhp, then don't, and it will probably last longer and be more equal with Toyotas!

The ideé must be to get more cars on the grid!

Agreed but there will always be someone who will get the extra 20 bhp and so as soon as one does then to be compettive everyone else who wants to run up front has to do the same not good for running costs.

Really will allowing in the rt3 increase numbers?? How many rt3 owners out there who would join CF3?? please please make yourselves heard. If they do let them in and they do prove to be more compettive than the current cars the grid will drop because to win you would then need to have one and how many are availible.

I honestly don't know how to get more cars on to the grid but to open it up to a faster car of any type will ruin what is a great albeit not so well supported at the moment championship in which many different cars are capable of winning.

I think Monaco has had an effect this year 10k for a weekends race is alot and there are a reasonable amount of people happy to sacrifice a seasons racing for that one event. I am hoping next year will be better for what is a super championship with great cars and nice people

I have been there and done that ARP was a good championship when we joined back in 99 with strong grids after a year of trials they allowed in up to 96 dallaras soon people who were behind me by a second a lap were in a sorted 96 in front. It in my opionion ruined the championship

[grantp]

Originally Posted by ralt-racer

I think Monaco has had an effect this year 10k for a weekends race is alot and there are a reasonable amount of people happy to sacrifice a seasons racing for that one event. I am hoping next year will be better for what is a super championship with great cars and nice people

At the back end of last year things were starting to look pretty good for this year despite a couple of expensive incidents but I think you are correct about the Monaco effect. Add in a few more incidents, a few people suffering mechanical woes of one sort or another and, presumably, the general economy influencing some of the participating decisions of the upper mid field runners (especially if they also race in other series AND maybe also did Monaco) and things look less buoyant.

Maybe things will pick up for the rest of the season. There are probably enough car/driver combinations available to make quite a competitive first four of five rows on the grid if no one has mechanical woes and they are all at a similar level of general development. Maybe not a 10 car lead battle but surely 10 cars within a couple of seconds of pole. The challenge is to get all of the cars into the same race for once - and then making that a habit!

[John Turner]

Originally Posted by ralt-racer

If they do let them in and they do prove to be more compettive than the current cars the grid will drop because to win you would then need to have one and how many are availible.

And there's me thinking that you guys do this historic racing for fun; at least that's what most of you tell me!

[ralt-racer]

Originally Posted by John Turner

And there's me thinking that you guys do this historic racing for fun; at least that's what most of you tell me!

Hehe It's always fun but especially if you win