Future chassis design rules .

[The Badger]

All this chat about slowing cars down , adding various bits of aero that look awful ..... and all the rest .

Its said that technology is passed from motorsport down to production ideas , how about this then ?

We all know that the sportscar proto chassis is made from carbon fibre ..... whats wrong with making them outta aluminium ?

Probably easier to field repair an aluminium chassis too , and probably easier in general .

What car does the average person buy that has a carbon fibre chassis ..... only the upmarket ones .

So , my question is : why dont they go down the aluminium chassis route , as opposed to expensive carbon fibre chassis ?

[Speed-King]

Is it possible to built a car from aluminum that is as safe as a carbonfibre-car?

I seem to remember that the early 956s and other Group C-cars had aluminum chassis and the saying about them was "As fast as F1 but only half as safe", or something to that effect...

[Félix]

1: Safety.
2: Performance (weight/rigidity-related)
3: I'm not sure repairability is that much better
4: The number of future cars made out of carbon is bound to overtake aluminium cars. Many manufacturers tried aluminium and won't go back to it I think.

[The Badger]

Originally Posted by Félix

1: Safety.
2: Performance (weight/rigidity-related)
3: I'm not sure repairability is that much better
4: The number of future cars made out of carbon is bound to overtake aluminium cars. Many manufacturers tried aluminium and won't go back to it I think.

Point 4 ..... what family cars are made from CF ?

Point 3 ..... certainly more field repairable , and faster , no cure times .

Point 2 ..... that could be worked upon .

[The Badger]

Originally Posted by Speed-King

Is it possible to built a car from aluminum that is as safe as a carbonfibre-car?

I seem to remember that the early 956s and other Group C-cars had aluminum chassis and the saying about them was "As fast as F1 but only half as safe", or something to that effect...

That was early aluminium technology , Im sure its come a long way since then .

The 956/962 was a sheet metal construction . Solid machined billet was first used on Holbert Racing chassis HR1 , and proved a longer lasting chassis than any works chassis did .

The 956/962 was bonded sheetmatal ..... Im talking about machining solid Aluminium .

[Félix]

Originally Posted by The Badger

That was early aluminium technology , Im sure its come a long way since then .

The 956/962 was a sheet metal construction . Solid machined billet was first used on Holbert Racing chassis HR1 , and proved a longer lasting chassis than any works chassis did .

The 956/962 was bonded sheetmatal ..... Im talking about machining solid Aluminium .

Solid machined alu is probably much more promising for performance/reliability yes, but I guess it's as exotic as carbon fibre chassis. To a team that just damaged a chassis badly into a wall, the difference between a carbon and solid machined alu for cost/repairability/easiness of sourcing a suitable replacement is probably not so big.

Didn't its alu chassis make the Aston harder to repair after a crash than other GT1s??

[MulsanneMike]

Originally Posted by The Badger

That was early aluminium technology , Im sure its come a long way since then .

The 956/962 was a sheet metal construction . Solid machined billet was first used on Holbert Racing chassis HR1 , and proved a longer lasting chassis than any works chassis did .

The 956/962 was bonded sheetmatal ..... Im talking about machining solid Aluminium .

Are you talking about a tub machined from solid aluminum? That's asinine! You think carbon fiber is expensive?? The Holbert 962 tub had a machined front bulkhead, that was it (well, maybe the hip bulkhead was as well, but nothing more). The rest of the tub was aluminum honeycomb sheets riveted and bonded together. To machine an entire tub out of a solid chunk of aluminum would take a 1000+ lb piece of ali in order to get your volume and then you'd spend 100s of hours in machine time.

[The Badger]

Or possibily aluminium/CF honeycomb ? Maybe I wasnt thinking either !!!

I ment the fwd bulkhead of the 952 , just didnt type properly what I ment .

Was pointing out the CF isnt very relevant to the majority of car buyers or the vast majority of car sales ..... and was thinking that alli could be a cheaper material .

[JAG]

After down sizing engines, lower weight is the next step for production cars, carbon fibre and composit body panels are coming, also read BMW will produce a carbon chassis city car.

[Purist]

If you could find the suppliers, you could get carbon fiber body panels made up for your Mazda Miata as much as 10 years ago.

One of the big problems you probably have with any of these more advanced materials is delamination issues between the layers after a heavy impact.

I would also think it's likely that some repair jobs are made significantly more involved, regardless of material, because certain components are designed to fail before certain other components, to increase the driver's safety margin.

Just thinking on aluminum honeycomb, and I'm pretty sure the Jaguar XJ220 was made out of the stuff. You might check to see what the record on those is as a benchmark for what the material can and cannot do.

[MulsanneMike]

Originally Posted by Purist

If you could find the suppliers, you could get carbon fiber body panels made up for your Mazda Miata as much as 10 years ago.

One of the big problems you probably have with any of these more advanced materials is delamination issues between the layers after a heavy impact.

I would also think it's likely that some repair jobs are made significantly more involved, regardless of material, because certain components are designed to fail before certain other components, to increase the driver's safety margin.

Just thinking on aluminum honeycomb, and I'm pretty sure the Jaguar XJ220 was made out of the stuff. You might check to see what the record on those is as a benchmark for what the material can and cannot do.

-220 was on a carbon fiber tub. Yes, the core was aluminum honeycomb, but that's no different to today's carbon tubs.

[Félix]

XJ220 is an aluminium tub with honeycomb inside. It's what any article that mentions the chassis says...

[arakis]

they could use carbon for the cockpit, and aluminium for everithing else. like some road cars, like ferrari Enzo, the chassis around the cockpit is carbon but the front and the back are made from aluminium struts, on witch the engine, and suspension is mounted, that way you get safty for the driver in the cockpit, and lower costs of the overall design

[ger80]

Think the main issue with the old aluminium chassis was the rivets ...
Would be interesting to see what possible with modern high strength weldable alloys

[Félix]

Was the Lola B2K/40's chassis good compared to carbon? It's the last serious car not built around carbon. I seem to remember that crash damage was a little bit more graphic with it because of the maeterial's lighter color. And they had to be made by a specialist in Canada - Multimatic - so I'd be interested to know how cheap they were in the end.

[Joe Taylor]

Something to note on the aluminium front is that the Pilbeam MP91 - built to the same no carbon tubs rule as the Lola - suffered from chassis flex and vibration issues throughout it's career.

[MitchZ06]

Not sure if this is the right place to ask this but can anyone point me in the direction of where I might find the GTE class engine regulations? (like an official document online? or something similar?)

[Nick6]

The SR2 rules at the time banned carbon tubs.

[ger80]

Something on the Lola aluminium chassis
http://www.multimatic.com/engineerin...cts/lola.shtml

[Duff_44]

Originally Posted by MitchZ06

Not sure if this is the right place to ask this but can anyone point me in the direction of where I might find the GTE class engine regulations? (like an official document online? or something similar?)

Links to most of the regulations are here:
http://www.lemans.org/en/race/24h/regulation.html

[MitchZ06]

Originally Posted by Duff_44

Links to most of the regulations are here:
http://www.lemans.org/en/race/24h/regulation.html

Thankyou