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Old 13 Apr 2011, 17:47 (Ref:2862977)   #1151
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Problem is that Peugeot had the 908 for nearly 9 months before Sebring and did a couple of 30 hour test, and which means that they should've had a decent picture of reliablity going in to Sebring.

Peugeot sandbagging was to be expected, but for their qualifying time to be up to 2 seconds slower than what Audi have tested at in Sebring, is either indicative that the 908 in sprint race trim might not have the outright speed of the Audi (the 908 as raced at Sebring was based, after all, on a lightly facelifted concept from the old 908), or they were sandbagging big time.

Remember, these cars aren't making the power that they used to, so they're going to be slower down the straights, and the more drag you put on the car (and the Sebring 908s were fairly draggy, running at about 95% of their max. downforce), that hurts straightline speed more.

I doubt that the drivers were sandbagging, considering Gene's accident and Lamy's spin, but could the technical people have had a few cards up their sleeves?

Of course, the LM test day will be more telling, as Peugeot should have their LM bodywork ready.
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Old 13 Apr 2011, 18:14 (Ref:2862983)   #1152
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Peugeot sandbagging was to be expected, but for their qualifying time to be up to 2 seconds slower than what Audi have tested at in Sebring, is either indicative that the 908 in sprint race trim might not have the outright speed of the Audi (the 908 as raced at Sebring was based, after all, on a lightly facelifted concept from the old 908), or they were sandbagging big time.
Or that the car has been built more with Le Mans in mind. Or that the track conditions were not as good as they might have been when the Audi did that time. Or a whole lot of other potential things.

Until we actually see the cars head-to-head on the same track at the same time and in the same conditions, all this speculation is completely pointless. We have 10 more days to wait for that.
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Old 13 Apr 2011, 19:16 (Ref:2862999)   #1153
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....people tend to forget that the times at Sebring are always by FAR better on test days after the race. But its so nice to speculate, isnt it? The Pug should be right up there, so lets wait and see at Spa.
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Old 13 Apr 2011, 19:19 (Ref:2863001)   #1154
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....people tend to forget that the times at Sebring are always by FAR better on test days after the race. But its so nice to speculate, isnt it? The Pug should be right up there, so lets wait and see at Spa.
And don't forget Le Mans test day next weekend.

In any case, between Spa and Le Mans itself, there'll be a lot of "I told you so" from one of the camps.
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Old 14 Apr 2011, 12:02 (Ref:2863232)   #1155
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Only problem with the test day logic is that when a car's alone on the track, the true times should come (like Peugeot in qualifying). If anything, track conditions for Audi were worse, as the track had 12 hours plus a race week's worth of clag and debris on the track, and that during their test, air and likely track temperatures were warmer than the race or race week.

All that I'm trying to say is that unless they were sandbagging big time, the only reasons why the Pug should be slower are:

1--They missed the set up--first time that the 908 spent a significant amount of time in race-like conditions at an ALMS/LMS style track.

2--Aero, which is heavily based on the old 908 and doesn't (at least yet) have the same tweaks that Audi and HPD have on their cars (Audi tested both times they were at Sebring with their proposed LM aero setups), or...

3--New car blues. The 908 is still a fairly new car, and that combined with all the high speed testing that they've done has lead to some shortage of knowlege on how the car would do with a sprint race set up, which explains why Peugeot packed on more downforce as the week wore on as the track rubbered in, and why they were often slower than Audi in the practice sessions.

Sebring probably gained Peugeot some knowlege about the 908 in race conditions and what it's like in a sprint race. And I'm not so sure that the original package was designed for Le Mans, as they have a new package for there where in which almost every body panel was changed.

Of course, with that knowlege, I wonder if Audi has changed their cars since Sebring.
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Old 14 Apr 2011, 12:44 (Ref:2863250)   #1156
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Only problem with the test day logic is that when a car's alone on the track, the true times should come (like Peugeot in qualifying). If anything, track conditions for Audi were worse, as the track had 12 hours plus a race week's worth of clag and debris on the track, and that during their test, air and likely track temperatures were warmer than the race or race week.
It's Le Mans test day, in normal circumstances you won't get cars alone on the track until maybe the last few minutes.
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Old 14 Apr 2011, 14:31 (Ref:2863295)   #1157
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I wasn't referring to the LM test weekend, I was talking about qualifying at Sebring (where only LMPs were on a 3.7 mile track), and the Audi test, where they mostly had the track to themselves.
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Old 14 Apr 2011, 15:23 (Ref:2863317)   #1158
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You are so obsessed with the Sebring lap times that forget that the incredible top speed that Peugeot has recorded in Paul Ricard, which clearly proves that the new 908 has an excellent low drag aero package and an extremely powerfull engine.
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Old 14 Apr 2011, 16:42 (Ref:2863350)   #1159
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The Sebring times are more relevant to about 90% of the other ILMC tracks than Paul Ricard, which is basically a bunch of medium speed corners, a couple of fast ones, and a couple of slow ones, and a couple of long straights.

And of course, we have to remember that the LM spec 908s are almost completely rebodied compared to the sprint variant. Of course, one would expect Audi to be cognizant of that. And it also says that the Sebring package wouldn't work for Peugeot at LM, because their car is down on power compared to the 2010 908.

And, with Sebring having a couple of long straights, wouldn't you call it a bit of a power/aero track?
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Old 14 Apr 2011, 16:55 (Ref:2863356)   #1160
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If Audi ran the LM spec. R18 at Sebring doesn't that suggest the new 908 is simply an Evo II variant rather than a car specifically for LM?
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Old 14 Apr 2011, 18:49 (Ref:2863397)   #1161
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No one will really know until Le Mans, first impressions will be Spa race but still big question marks will be left.
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Old 14 Apr 2011, 20:01 (Ref:2863432)   #1162
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No one will really know until Le Mans, first impressions will be Spa race but still big question marks will be left.
Exactly!
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Old 14 Apr 2011, 21:36 (Ref:2863469)   #1163
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...Paul Ricard, which is basically a bunch of medium speed corners, a couple of fast ones, and a couple of slow ones, and a couple of long straights.
....sounds to me like it has a bit of everything - which is probably why they keep testing at the place ?

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And of course, we have to remember that the LM spec 908s are almost completely rebodied compared to the sprint variant. Of course, one would expect Audi to be cognizant of that. And it also says that the Sebring package wouldn't work for Peugeot at LM, because their car is down on power compared to the 2010 908.
Its not that the Sebring version doesn't work - you are forgetting the time factor - First the big guns get a set of bodywork ready to go testing / do your first race (Peugeot started with a bodywork resembling last years car, which worked fine), but then you don't want to be caught with you latest developments until there is only very little time left for others to copy, manufacture, validate and test them, which is why they keep developing in CAD/CFD and the wind tunnel and then come out with an "Evo" package. Audi after the race at Sebring, Pug nearly the same time at Monza.
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Old 15 Apr 2011, 08:35 (Ref:2863611)   #1164
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And, with Sebring having a couple of long straights, wouldn't you call it a bit of a power/aero track?
According to http://auto-racing.speedtv.com/artic...d-trap-speeds/ the old 908 and R15 hit 180 mph = 290 km/h on the Ulmann straight. That is nothing compared to the 330+ km/h of the Mistral straight and the 350 km/h in Le Mans.
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Old 15 Apr 2011, 09:25 (Ref:2863633)   #1165
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the ulmann straight is quite long, I think the reason for the cars not hitting speeds comparable to the hunaudieres and the mulsanne-indianapolis straights there is simply the fact that sebring requires a much higher downforce setup than le mans and even paul ricard, because lm is a much faster circuit overall and pr isn't nearly as bumpy as sebring, although it is a rather technical circuit outside the mistral.
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Old 15 Apr 2011, 09:57 (Ref:2863654)   #1166
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The Ulmann straight is about one kilometer. Mistral and each segment of the Hunaudieres are about twice that.
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Old 15 Apr 2011, 10:39 (Ref:2863677)   #1167
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According to DSC, Dr.Ullrich was very bullish, at the Audi press/media dinner at Goodwood House on Wednesday, with regard to the R18's chances at Le Mans. I sense things are going considerably better (up to this point) than even he had anticipated.
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Old 15 Apr 2011, 13:05 (Ref:2863733)   #1168
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the ulmann straight is quite long, I think the reason for the cars not hitting speeds comparable to the hunaudieres and the mulsanne-indianapolis straights there is simply the fact that sebring requires a much higher downforce setup than le mans and even paul ricard, because lm is a much faster circuit overall and pr isn't nearly as bumpy as sebring, although it is a rather technical circuit outside the mistral.
Yes, this is correct. Ricard requires a touch more downforce than Le Mans, thus is a decent Le Mans simulator if much shorter.
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Old 15 Apr 2011, 13:06 (Ref:2863735)   #1169
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nice to hear that about ullrich. well, actually, the r18 might be the first audi to beat the 908 on pace - which is what they are aiming at, among other things (main one being reliability), according to wolfgang ullrich.
although, to be quite honest, i feel the r15+ was already very close to the 908 last year in terms of track performance, at least at le mans, where all that peugeot did in order to go faster was to tune the engine so high that it broke on all 4 cars. but even so, with the peugeot having much higher revs and all than the r15+, the trap speeds were the same on the hunaudieres - 348 km/h for both cars, and also, lap times on all tracks seemed very close, except, again, le mans, where peugeot pushed their luck with the engine tuning and eventually abandoned with all cars involved. they seemed pretty scared by the r15+ especially after spa, as well as this year, with their new 908, when they again suggested that audi did something against the rules - working on a car that should have been identical to last year. i hope they don't start complaining again about all the technical solutions that audi can come up with, that would be really lame.
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Old 15 Apr 2011, 13:26 (Ref:2863743)   #1170
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Last year Peugeot won every race, except Le Mans, which shows that the 908 was the better car.

The trap speeds of Le Mans only tell half of the story. The 908 clearly pulled away from the R15+ on the straights.
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Old 15 Apr 2011, 13:29 (Ref:2863747)   #1171
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Last year Peugeot won every race, except Le Mans, which shows that the 908 was the better car.
Audi beat the Oreca 908 HDi FAP at Paul Ricard last year if you want to count that.
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Old 15 Apr 2011, 13:31 (Ref:2863751)   #1172
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Last year Peugeot won every race, except Le Mans, which shows that the 908 was the better car.

The trap speeds of Le Mans only tell half of the story. The 908 clearly pulled away from the R15+ on the straights.
He's not saying they didn't. He clearly said that at LM Peugeot had the engines tuned to the max and overworked just so they could pull away from Audi on the track...

At the other tracks the cars were pretty close in terms of track performance with the Pug being slightly quicker. Audi could have won in China and Petit...
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Old 15 Apr 2011, 13:56 (Ref:2863764)   #1173
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The old peugeot was clearly desgined for one purpose and that was le mans. at le mans they beat the audi's with 2 or 3 seconds. but in the other races that advantage was gone.
I think as it stand right now with the new peugeot its the same story come le mans the car will be quicker than the audi.
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Old 15 Apr 2011, 16:46 (Ref:2863851)   #1174
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Hi,

I was listening to a youtube video of the new peugeot 908 hdi fap:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=446bW0Z2zSk


and it sounds like they are running waste gated turbos not vg.
Surely that would make for a narrower power band?

Best wishes

john
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Old 15 Apr 2011, 17:22 (Ref:2863872)   #1175
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He's not saying they didn't. He clearly said that at LM Peugeot had the engines tuned to the max and overworked just so they could pull away from Audi on the track...

At the other tracks the cars were pretty close in terms of track performance with the Pug being slightly quicker. Audi could have won in China and Petit...
Classic case of...If it ain't broke, don't fix it! Their Steel Rods were fine they didn't need to change to Titanium ones, just to save a few grams!

Can't wait to see how the R18 shapes up against the new 908. Although I expect both will have issues in their first seasons, as weve seen before with brand new cars.
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