Boycotting salted circuits ???

[terence]

Sorry Mike,that was a little tongue in cheek. No matter how hard you try,it will always be in between any joint that moisture can seep into. Best bet is if you care,don't expose the car to it at all.
We,CMS,used to look after a few Morgans,one of those needed a new front valance making to bolt under the centre section of the grill. The car was collected on an open trailer with my nice shiny alloy panel exposed to the elements during its trip down to our regular painter. The effect of what must have been caused by salt required the panel to be stripped back and cleaned with an alloy cleaner a few times before the self etch primer adhered properly.

[Peter Mallett]

Originally Posted by Mike Bell

I am wondering if 'postponment' of an event is contractually different to 'cancelling'? (Probably wish I hadn't asked that! )

The question of whether salt was actually used at Oulton is academic to the question posed, but would be good to hear that it was not!

I would assume that postpone means what it says. It will be run at a later date.

Agreed the op was talking about circuits where salt has been used, which is a bit different from circuits where the salt is available on any given day, but hasn't been used. This thread was started because of the Oulton Park situation and as I said they (as far as I know) didn't actually use it.

I'm not entirely certain what use it would be to clear the circuit but not the surrounding area anyway because the access ways would need to be clear for safety reasons.

[Al Weyman]

No doubt they would have used it if the 40cms of snow hadnt appeared and it was just icy and then the race would have gone ahead, I won't use my '94 Chevy Dayvan on salted roads, value 3 to 4k tops let alone an all alloy Bizzarini etc worth 100k plus.

[rogerwills]

Oulton were constantly saying over the tannoy that they were ploughing the circuit and spreading grit and salt to clear it. Salt was clearly mentioned many times. In addition, a member of the MSV team was asking us what we planned to do and we all discussed the damage salt would do to the cars. We also asked Masters to clarify what they were using and it was clear salt was involved. And, I wrote to Jonathan Palmer saying I felt salt has no place on a race track, no matter the conditions. He replied "What do you think MSV should have done?"

100% they were using salt.

[Peter Mallett]

Thanks for clearing that up. Can't blame folks for not wanting to run.

[Al Weyman]

I hope you told Mr. Palmer he should have declared the circuit unfit for purpose and refunded everyone their money.

[terence]

Or refunded Masters. But,as I previously said,who is accountable for bad weather? Sure,it was widely suggested there would indeed be snow from the various forecasters,but how often do they get it right? MSV want to make money as much as anyone else. [No,not standing up for them!] Just a point of view.Quite surprised by the response from MSV though.

[midgetman]

Masters will have an insurance policy on which they could have claimed, surely? My father-in-law used to have cancellation insurance on a local 1st class county cricket club's events, it kept them in the black. And that was 40 years ago!

[Al Weyman]

I meant refund Masters who could then refund the entrants. I know the weather cannot be helped but the forecasts were very clear and are a lot more accurate these days. If the track is not fit for purpose surely that's the owners problem isnt it same as hiring anything? Maybe MSV have cancellation insurance?

[Mike Bell]

Originally Posted by Al Weyman

I meant refund Masters who could then refund the entrants. I know the weather cannot be helped but the forecasts were very clear and are a lot more accurate these days. If the track is not fit for purpose surely that's the owners problem isnt it same as hiring anything? Maybe MSV have cancellation insurance?

Maybe by postponing the meeting (rather than cancelling) the organiser is not obliged to refund entry fees to competitors, but instead hold them until it is re-scheduled. Then if entrants cannot make the meeting hopefully they get a refund?

With ever increasing pressure to cram as many events as possible into the season starting later doesn't seem to be an option, but collaboration and circuit sharing between organisers, (that we are beginning to see glimpses of) will surely help.

Hopefully the reaction of Masters competitors to the track conditions on Friday will make the circuit owner think, if not actually change anything!

[Al Weyman]

but collaboration and circuit sharing between organisers, (that we are beginning to see glimpses of) will surely help.

Which brings us nicely round to this ridiculous championship/series registration thing, if true co-operation is to happen this nonsence must stop ASAP, IMHO its totally working against the clubs, so short sighted.

[Al Weyman]

I just fail to see how with half or should I say somtimes quarter filled grids that they still insist on the registration thing, throw it open for God's sake and lets get some cars entered. Many a time I see a meeting and think I wouldnt mind a go at that but no, car isnt quite right irrespective that it wont stand a hope in hell of winning or even being at the sharp end, or it needs to be road registered, have some certain make of tyre even if the ones on the car are vastly inferior, or its a year or so older than 1966, or you dont belong to this or that club or other, its all so silly just get the cars out there and stop putting barriers in the way or the whole thing will collapse and soon. Many people yearn for the old days well this happened in the old days, MSA said you had to belong to just one club, just maybe this is one of the things that has changed and is hurting the sport.

[GORDON STREETER]

Originally Posted by Al Weyman

Which brings us nicely round to this ridiculous championship/series registration thing, if true co-operation is to happen this nonsence must stop ASAP, IMHO its totally working against the clubs, so short sighted.

Do they still pay you to race on the Ovals Al ?
I remember the abroad meetings in the late 60s early 70s we used to get paid quite well and also the ferries were paid for, the promoters didn't go bust !
OK I know things have changed and the ovals are a different scenario but it makes you think !!!!

[simon drabble]

the difference is that Silverstone are more pragmatic and cancel in good time as they are not so driven to take your cash - tomorrow is off at Silverstone.

[Colin McKay]

We transport all the kit for a national kart series and there is always a contingency for really bad weather. Co-operation between circuits seems more commonplace in karting, when a meeting in February at Warden Law (Sunderland) was threatened they relocated it with 24 hours notice to Rye House (Essex) - 250 miles away - and whilst it must have been a pain for those competitors involved at least they got their racing.

[Al Weyman]

Originally Posted by GORDON STREETER

Do they still pay you to race on the Ovals Al ?
I remember the abroad meetings in the late 60s early 70s we used to get paid quite well and also the ferries were paid for, the promoters didn't go bust !
OK I know things have changed and the ovals are a different scenario but it makes you think !!!!

Not sure Gordon but obviously a stadium has lower overheads, hey what a good track the Olympic Stadium would have made eh, perish the thought it may hold something people want to see and make some money!

[gt917]

Originally Posted by rogerwills

Oulton were constantly saying over the tannoy that they were ploughing the circuit and spreading grit and salt to clear it. Salt was clearly mentioned many times. In addition, a member of the MSV team was asking us what we planned to do and we all discussed the damage salt would do to the cars. We also asked Masters to clarify what they were using and it was clear salt was involved. And, I wrote to Jonathan Palmer saying I felt salt has no place on a race track, no matter the conditions. He replied "What do you think MSV should have done?"

100% they were using salt.

I am glad i started this heartfelt thread and the response gained so far.

Roger Wills valuable post above just goes to show the sad ignorance that the head of MSV has towards this matter. I started this thread with strong personal knowledge of salt damage and i want to emphasize to all that it will attack all modern cars as well. One lump of damp road salt wedged between chassis and copper brake pipe could see a corrode through case in a few months alone.

I now believe there should be a clause written into all race enrolement forms that gives the entrant a money back guarantee if salt is used before a practice - race meeting and that this would give the organising club real power to wave at the circuit owners.

This is an important issue that affects ALL cars, especially racing cars.

How do we start a petition ?

[terence]

Refuse to enter any March races? Saying that though I remember it being bitingly cold with a snow storm at Snett in 1970.

Point being how can anyone predict how the weather will turn out four weeks before hand? Also,regardless of the potential damage caused by salt,perhaps the salting decision was made by someone who just didn't have a clue as to its consequence's and thought that because of the distance traveled,it would be a shame to cancel the event?. Just a couple of "possibles".

Not really answering your question,but,once at the circuit,its a little late to ask the question.

[rogerwills]

Jonathan Palmer replied as follows which I think was good of him to take the time to respond.

____________________

From: Jonathan Palmer
Date: Monday, 25 March 2013 11:53
To: Roger Wills
Subject: RE: Salt on Oulton Park

Roger

You are obviously looking at this just from your perspective - which I can quite understand! You need to appreciate though that this was a very difficult, unusual situation and our circuit team worked very hard to do what they considered was the best thing overall.

Had grit salt not been used, the circuit would have not been safe to use that day for anyone - it would have remained too icy. Some 30 cars did actually test and indeed were very appreciative of the efforts made to get the circuit usable, which happened by 11.00 I think. We were very conscious of the long journeys many people had to get to Oulton Park.

Clearly a significant number of people did want to test and accepted the consequences of salt use. I can however fully appreciate that some of the historic fraternity have very valuable cars that they really don't want salt contamination to affect, even though I understand it can be washed off pretty well. .

Obviously we need to learn from this as we don't want to disappoint anyone. Perhaps in future MSV should consult with those like you who will only want to test if any snow/ice/frost is left to go naturally and see if we can offer an insurance against the risk that this may mean the cancellation of a test day – one that might have been acceptable to others who would accept salt use in the event of such weather.

Kind regards
Jonathan

Jonathan Palmer
Chief Executive
MSV Group Ltd
www.msv.com

[Peter Mallett]

Quite a good response. We do tend to forget that the good doctor is an enthusiast and has done quite a bit for the good of UK motor sport.

That said I'm sure some will find a way to criticize.

Thanks for posting that.

[Bosse L]

it sounds strange even for us living Scandinavia with salt on public roads from november until march/april every year. Nerer heard about using of salt at our tracks to make race or testing possible. Dont think any one want to get the rust problems on his racecar from this. (its bad enough on our daily cars oncommon roads) its maybe time to introduce real iceracing in GB?

[Al Weyman]

Yeah, I'm sure Jonathon would really appreciate studded tyres on his nice smooth tarmac!

[Mike Bell]

Originally Posted by Bosse L

it sounds strange even for us living Scandinavia with salt on public roads from november until march/april every year. Never heard about using of salt at our tracks to make race or testing possible.

Think UK has caught up with you there! Perhaps more spasmodic use though. Good to hear that it is not used on circuits. What is the normal season for racing there?

Certainly a good response from JP and obviously the subject not just swept under the carpet.

[Mike Harte]

I can remember racing at the Mallory Boxing Day meeting in, I think, 1970 and the track was covered in a light dusting of snow.

From memory, the organisers asked if the competitors would just poodle around the circuit for an hour or so to try and de-frost the track, and they provided us with free fuel for our troubles.

Promised myself that I would never go to another winter meeting; have kept at least that promise

[Christian Devereux]

It looks like the major issue here is communication between the circuit owners and the drivers.

If they let us know at signing on, or preferably before, that they have gritted the track, then we are all able to make an informed opinion.