Goodwood 74th Member's Meeting

[FISCracer]

I've read with interest the posts on amateurs not being up to it at Goodwood when mixed with the 'pros'. I have a different perspective.

Although there are a few inexperienced drivers at the Revival and the MMs, the majority of amateurs there are highly experienced and are often driving a car they know intimately. Most are owner/drivers would not think of over-driving or deliberately damaging their car or another's and are used to 'giving each other room'.

By contrast the 'pros' need to prove how fast they are - after all what could be more embarrassing than being slower than the owner? They have come from an environment where they must win at all costs. Hence they are driving the cars, which they are frequently unfamiliar with, much closer to the edge. No doubt in many cases they are more talented or experienced but that does not make them safer.

I am very aware of how dangerous Goodwood can be, and drive accordingly. Unfortunately I think we are probably approaching the time when the newly built and modsports Can Am type cars are too fast for the circuit and some of the others are not far behind. It does not take much imagination to realise what could happen at the end of Lavant Straight travelling at over 170mph with twin 10 gallon fuel tanks either side of the car as the fastest Mk1 T70s are.

The accidents with the Lola at Woodcote and the Lotus at the tunnel had nothing to do with driver experience or skill and could just as easily happened to pros. I personally think amateurs like Simon Hadfield, Nick Swift, Chris Ryan and Keith Ahlers are just as naturally gifted as many of the pros, they just did not start racing cars at the age of 8.

[p261brm]

With all due respect I for one and surely many others would hardly put Mr Hadfield in the 'amateur' category, either as a driver or engineer.

[johngee]

Originally Posted by p261brm

With all due respect I for one and surely many others would hardly put Mr Hadfield in the 'amateur' category, either as a driver or engineer.

Nor Nick Swift, Chris Ryan and Keith Ahlers.

[FISCracer]

Exactly my point.

All are accomplished drivers however none of them is a professional driver. Simon and Nick are in the trade but neither Keith nor Chris are. So what constitutes an 'amateur' in the context above?

I'm an amateur. I've been racing since 1986, every season since 1999. I did approximately 15 hours of racing across Europe last season plus quali and practice and will do so again this year. Since moving on from UK club racing I've done approx 100 races in Europe including the Spa 6 Hours eight times, the Marathon at the Oldtimer GP, the L'Age D'Or, Coppa Intereuropa plus the Revival and Members Meetings.

I may be experienced and hopefully reasonably quick for a 'never was' but I'm still an amateur, just like Chris and Keith. So where do you draw the line for 'amateur drivers undoubtably racing beyond their capabilities'? Pace? Experience? Who decides who has 'all the gear, no idea'?

At least in the UK you have to show some track record to get an international licence. In other countries you can just buy one having never been on a track before.

[bauble]

Originally Posted by FISCracer

Exactly my point.

All are accomplished drivers however none of them is a professional driver. Simon and Nick are in the trade but neither Keith nor Chris are. So what constitutes an 'amateur' in the context above?

I'm an amateur. I've been racing since 1986, every season since 1999. I did approximately 15 hours of racing across Europe last season plus quali and practice and will do so again this year. Since moving on from UK club racing I've done approx 100 races in Europe including the Spa 6 Hours eight times, the Marathon at the Oldtimer GP, the L'Age D'Or, Coppa Intereuropa plus the Revival and Members Meetings.

I may be experienced and hopefully reasonably quick for a 'never was' but I'm still an amateur, just like Chris and Keith. So where do you draw the line for 'amateur drivers undoubtably racing beyond their capabilities'? Pace? Experience? Who decides who has 'all the gear, no idea'?

At least in the UK you have to show some track record to get an international licence. In other countries you can just buy one having never been on a track before.

I assume some are paid to be there and some pay to be there.

[midgetman]

"Who decides who has all the gear no idea?"

It should be lap times and competence. If you can do the times required at a compulsory test day you're in, if not you're out. To pass your ARKS test you have to be within 10% of a good mid grid time. Seems like a sensible benchmark.

A story in the Telegraph really pointed out the stupidity of our currrent situation. It started off something like:

"If Bernie Ecclestone has his way a middle aged businessman will be on the F1 grid at the Monaco Historic race meeting two weeks before the GP."

That businessman was the boss of CVC. Who from the tone of the article is a massive petrol head but doesn't have have a racing licence.

Those of you who follow my regular wittering will realise my blood started to boil...

[grantp]

Once in a while there are some exceptional "amateurs" and inexperienced newcomers.

Back in 2012 there was an Italian chap in the CF3 event at the Monaco Historique who was taking part in his first car race. From memory he had not done any other car track competition but once in a while had run in the odd bike race and had done a Dakar or similar on a bike some years previously.

He proved to be pretty fast and drove well. Front row qualifying for his heat iirc, or something like that.

Rumour had it that he had run several hundred kilometers, maybe even a couple of thousand, in private practice under the tutelage of one of the front runners of the Italian CF3 series who was also a regular at the Monaco Historique.

On the other hand there were a few old hands, long term owners and drivers often from the USA, who seemed to be less than fully aware of what was going on around them, despite being regulars to the scene.

Quite how one can attempt to satisfactorily legislate for that in events that clearly require significant cash and, to a greater or lesser extent, commitment I am not sure. Without the less capable personal risk takers the financial model might not work. Presumably most of those people are mature enough to understand the personal risks they embrace.

For the spectators one might argue differently.

A relatively simple "fix" would be to clear the most "at risk" areas during high speed track activity. Somewhat constraining perhaps but not entirely unreasonable compared with the erection of ugly and not necessarily effective "debris fencing".

[Moosehead]

It used to amuse and annoy me when attending the Revival meetings that during air displays you have to vacate certain areas of the spectator enclosure which resulted in around 200 people crowding together waiting for the 'gates' to be re-opened. I often thought if a wheel were to make a break for freedom off a car on track and bounce over the embankment there would be no way to dodge it stuck in such a crowd.

[grantp]

Originally Posted by Moosehead

It used to amuse and annoy me when attending the Revival meetings that during air displays you have to vacate certain areas of the spectator enclosure which resulted in around 200 people crowding together waiting for the 'gates' to be re-opened. I often thought if a wheel were to make a break for freedom off a car on track and bounce over the embankment there would be no way to dodge it stuck in such a crowd.

Perhaps but I'm sure that statistically it could be proved that there would be a better chance of an arrant wheel hitting one or more of the other 199 people rather than you.

After all, if you were the only person there and the wheel hit someone it would have to be you!