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Old 15 Jul 2007, 21:22 (Ref:1963838)   #1
gixxer
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Castle Combe yellow flags and safety cars

Can someone please tell me what the hell's going on wilst i never like to criticise the work that you Marshalls do today at quarry was down right appaling the main points being..

1, The use of the yellow flag on at least 5 occasions where the person who was using it seem not to have any idea how to use it when a waved yellow on the exit of quarry was displayed the same was being waved on the post next to the traffic light which should have been stationary,even though one observer did come across and tell the person.But once the marshalls moved around the same happend at avon rise surley if there's a newby they must watched and kept an eye as a lot of the time nobody seemed to know what to do.

2 use of safety cars

Why oh why after every car that went off at quarry into the wall was there a need for the safety car to be depolyed when at least three times the cars were not in any position of danger the chap who was seemingly constantly on the phone panicing about cars that had gone off we might as well have had gravel traps,never in the 37 years of spectating at combe have i seen so much flapping done by an obsever usually unless the cars are in a direct line like the vx220 then they are always left and deemed out of the way.

Very Very Frustrated by needless hold ups at some points of the meeting!!!!!!!

I'm sorry to be blunt but a number of us sat at Quarry today just could not understand why a saftey car was needed when it never has been used for the same incidents in the past!!
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Old 15 Jul 2007, 22:00 (Ref:1963877)   #2
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Gixxer, I wasn't there so I can't comment on what you saw but two things immediately come to mind.

1) Are you sure that the safety car deployments were for the incidents you saw and not for anything else (and don't take the circuit commentator's word for it unless you know that they had been told by race control).

2) You are obviously a knowledgeable regular so have ever been marshalling yourself?
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Old 15 Jul 2007, 22:18 (Ref:1963899)   #3
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I was there too, and i have to say that I completely agree. Many of the safety cars surely weren't truly necessary, yellow flags could have replaced many. I don't think that the use of yellows was too badly excessive, but often sessions were red-flagged where double-waved yellows would often have been sufficient. A good day's racing still, and I had a great time, so who is to complain?
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Old 15 Jul 2007, 22:18 (Ref:1963900)   #4
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I think the marshals and officials did a fantastic job today in dealing with the numerous incidents and keeping all the resulting delays to a minimum.

I wasn't near Quarry, so can't comment specifically on incidents you saw, but as far as I remember the different safety cars and red flags were for incidents around the circuit, not just at Quarry. It's possible that the safety car was deployed for something other than the incident you had observed. All incidents, even a 'spin and continue' are phoned in, so the marshal 'constantly on the phone' wasn't necessarily asking for a safety car.

Hope you enjoyed the day, it was great that all races were completed, and most importantly that everyone stayed safe.
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Old 15 Jul 2007, 22:22 (Ref:1963904)   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gixxer
1, The use of the yellow flag on at least 5 occasions where the person who was using it seem not to have any idea how to use it when a waved yellow on the exit of quarry was displayed the same was being waved on the post next to the traffic light which should have been stationary,even though one observer did come across and tell the person.But once the marshalls moved around the same happend at avon rise surley if there's a newby they must watched and kept an eye as a lot of the time nobody seemed to know what to do.
Grixxer, I cann't comment on the flagging at the light on Quarry as i didn't witness (being in pitlane), but remembering a training day from the other year, a question about sighting was rasied, and with Avon Rise/Quarry In, and it was said that if Quarry In had waved yellows, then if deemed nesseary Avon Rise would also wave yellow, due to drivers not seeing Quarry In after coming over the brow of the hill...


Quote:
Originally Posted by gixxer
2 use of safety cars

Why oh why after every car that went off at quarry into the wall was there a need for the safety car to be depolyed when at least three times the cars were not in any position of danger the chap who was seemingly constantly on the phone panicing about cars that had gone off we might as well have had gravel traps,never in the 37 years of spectating at combe have i seen so much flapping done by an obsever usually unless the cars are in a direct line like the vx220 then they are always left and deemed out of the way.

Very Very Frustrated by needless hold ups at some points of the meeting!!!!!!!

I'm sorry to be blunt but a number of us sat at Quarry today just could not understand why a saftey car was needed when it never has been used for the same incidents in the past!!
Ok, safety car today (Sunday), I'm sure Combe Marshal can confirm/add as he was Safety Car observer today. We had incidents...

DMN Saloon's or FPA Race 1, Have a feelin Safety Car was used, but cant remember which...
CC FF1600, 1 car in backwards Esses out & 1 car in forwards at Tower - Resulted in Red Flag.
CC Saloons, 2 cars in heavy at Folley. Resulted in Red Flag
FPA Race 2, 3 in at Quarry, Safety Car deployed then 1 middle of track minus a wheel at Startline. Resulted in Red Flag

There was some serious and major accidents today, thanfully nothing hurt/broken except wallets and cars. It's the first time in a few years I've known red flags at Combe. And you'll have notice the 45 minute stop to clear up the CC Saloons... Be honet as AF would say we did a "bloody good job" and still finished all our race's before curfew and thats even with the Historic F3's wanting to race on slicks in the wet

Last edited by Zider Drinker; 15 Jul 2007 at 22:24.
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Old 15 Jul 2007, 22:24 (Ref:1963908)   #6
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Ian Sowman should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridIan Sowman should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridIan Sowman should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
I wasn't at Quarry so couldn't see specifically what was going on there. It appeared that there was a few eccentricities over the weekend, from those trackside, drivers and race control alike - perhaps best to put it down to a long weekend for everyone.

The yellow flags thing interests me - on several occasions we had waved yellows at two successive posts at Camp, so I wonder if there's been some kind of 'policy' change on that. We also had the first DMN race being rolling started with the green flag for some reason (rather than the union flag), which meant that when there was an incident off the line we had green and yellows being waved at the same point.

Oh, and drivers still need to learn how to drive on a rolling lap and behind the safety car. I think clerks need to start taking action against those who don't do so, because it is starting to get embarrassing to watch on occasions, frankly.
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Old 15 Jul 2007, 22:31 (Ref:1963914)   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by morwenna
I think the marshals and officials did a fantastic job today in dealing with the numerous incidents and keeping all the resulting delays to a minimum.
Agree with that,today was rather extraordinary,although Old Paddock was relatively quiet
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Old 15 Jul 2007, 22:56 (Ref:1963929)   #8
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Originally Posted by Ian Sowman
......which meant that when there was an incident off the line we had green and yellows being waved at the same point.
Would that be a problem?
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Old 15 Jul 2007, 23:39 (Ref:1963962)   #9
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A few things that spring to mind instantly are:

The frequent use of the safety car. Take into account the conditions today. Wet conditions make it completely impossible to predict where cars are likely to go if they come off. The likelyhood of an incident increases hugely in the wet, and once on wet grass, cars have a nasty habit of not slowing at all before the hit anything. Because of that, if there is something that needs attention, especially at a corner like Quarry, if you're putting people the wrong side of the armco, the race has to be neutralised.

As others have mentioned, the deployments might very well not have been for the incidents you saw.

It's fairly universally agreed that deploying the safety car means less races end in a red flag.

A waved yellow flag in one sector does not preclude the possibility of there being a need for a waved yellow in the next sector. And I might add that there is a significant section of the sector between Quarry and Esses, that is not visible from the quarry spectator area. It is quite common for a multi car incident at Quarry to deposit it's results strewn across Quarry and the next sector.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gixxer
never in the 37 years of spectating at combe have i seen so much flapping done by an obsever usually unless the cars are in a direct line like the vx220 then they are always left and deemed out of the way
I haven't been marshalling as long as you have been a spectator. But in my experience of being an observer, compared to spectating, there is a world of difference between what you see from both perspectives. If you're the guy on the phone who gets the call wrong, you risk the lives of the guys working the incident. I would strongly endorse the comments other posters have made, asking you to try your hand at marshalling before making comments that can be very hurtful.
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Old 16 Jul 2007, 08:33 (Ref:1964135)   #10
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Having been a regular at combe for the past 6 years this post made me smile there are some comments i could make but won't
Just glad someone else has noticed things
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Old 16 Jul 2007, 09:04 (Ref:1964152)   #11
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Only saw this from the drivers seat (did not get to spectate much )

Can't complain about the marshalling, for the 2 races (and qualiy) I was in, I could not see anything that I would consider should have been one differently (well I might have got a bit more gung-ho with the JBC to get the skip (ok, VX) out of the wall!)

only bit that intially supprised me (but reading above I can understand) was the way yellows were put out a post ahead of where you would expect them to be.

At the end of the day, if we drivers keep falling off then I we can't really complain...
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Old 16 Jul 2007, 09:43 (Ref:1964186)   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ian Sowman
Oh, and drivers still need to learn how to drive on a rolling lap and behind the safety car. I think clerks need to start taking action against those who don't do so, because it is starting to get embarrassing to watch on occasions, frankly.
I agree with the above, having been there on Saturday only. You don't start to race behind the safety car - and if the field had been bunched up properly instead of gaps out of Camp, they would've realised the SC was still out there - and if it was planned for the SC to do two laps, I presume this would have been mentioned in the drivers briefing.

The situation I didn't understand on Saturday was the SC for Bucheta's FPA in the wall at Camp, and later no SC for the FPA up against the pit wall. The marshals were running out lap after lap whenever there was a gap in the traffic to try and move the FPA by the pit wall further to safety but with no SC. Cue later in the session, someone running wide on the exit of camp and smacking into the stationary car.
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Old 16 Jul 2007, 10:55 (Ref:1964245)   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by b1ackcr0w
A few things that spring to mind instantly are:

The frequent use of the safety car. Take into account the conditions today. Wet conditions make it completely impossible to predict where cars are likely to go if they come off. The likelyhood of an incident increases hugely in the wet, and once on wet grass, cars have a nasty habit of not slowing at all before the hit anything. Because of that, if there is something that needs attention, especially at a corner like Quarry, if you're putting people the wrong side of the armco, the race has to be neutralised.

As others have mentioned, the deployments might very well not have been for the incidents you saw.

It's fairly universally agreed that deploying the safety car means less races end in a red flag.

A waved yellow flag in one sector does not preclude the possibility of there being a need for a waved yellow in the next sector. And I might add that there is a significant section of the sector between Quarry and Esses, that is not visible from the quarry spectator area. It is quite common for a multi car incident at Quarry to deposit it's results strewn across Quarry and the next sector.



I haven't been marshalling as long as you have been a spectator. But in my experience of being an observer, compared to spectating, there is a world of difference between what you see from both perspectives. If you're the guy on the phone who gets the call wrong, you risk the lives of the guys working the incident. I would strongly endorse the comments other posters have made, asking you to try your hand at marshalling before making comments that can be very hurtful.
I'm only saying what i saw which i was not the only one to notice as mentioned above your comment,I never like to criticise Marshalls as i know without you lads and lasses we'd not have a sport but when there needs to be something said then i will say it,i have no intention to make comments to be hurtfull in any way but when i see things like this its bloody frustrating to have a meeting disruted by silly errors.And the only reason stopping me from being a marshall is a 12yr old who comes with me to all combe meetings and he will always come first its a family tradition we've supported combe since 1952
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Old 16 Jul 2007, 12:58 (Ref:1964320)   #14
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Just like to say that although it was a rain affected day, i enjoyed a good days racing. I was at tower out and had only one incident involving a fford. The only bad thing i saw was on the Formula Palmer Audis when the safety car let the backmarkers through and they came flying through tower (still with yellow flags and SC boards displayed), with marshalls still dealing with the car at Bobbies! All at Tower Out where not impressed . Other than that a good day. Thanks to all involved.
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Old 16 Jul 2007, 13:03 (Ref:1964325)   #15
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That's a difficult one to manage - but they are supposed to be catching up with the SC train, so you can't blame them too much.

Perhaps there needs to be some kind of extra signalling in the incident zone to remind them to properly slow down through there and proceed at a much quicker pace around the rest of the lap.
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