Time to re-invent touring car racing (again)?

[stedevil]

Originally Posted by Dead-Eye

You will not convince me that summarily sending the 2.0l NA to the museum (to use your own words), meaning banning it, is the right way.

Sorry for the missunderstanding. I never meant to outright ban the 2L NA petrol. Though I do belive it will die out by itself in 3-4 years if alternatives will be allowed. Right now however, the rules does not allow for alternatives (apart from the diesels, which one weekly hear people loudly suggest should be immediately banned...).

And I would love to see a 2L NA be beaten by a bio-gas car running on pig**** in 5-10 years.

[Dead-Eye]

Originally Posted by stedevil

Sorry for the missunderstanding. I never meant to outright ban the 2L NA petrol. Though I do belive it will die out by itself in 3-4 years if alternatives will be allowed. Right now however, the rules does not allow for alternatives (apart from the diesels, which one weekly hear people loudly suggest should be immediately banned...).

And I would love to see a 2L NA be beaten by a bio-gas car running on pig**** in 5-10 years.

Great...we've been arguing all evening and actually agree

[kristof14]

Originally Posted by stedevil

I would just like to point out that all of these manufacturers/brands are represented in JTCC, which as I mentioned, run on E85. If the S2000 regs where more permissive as to exaclty what engine you may use, I don't see why those already in JTCC couldn't also be in eg WTCC, at least as independents.

In Europe there are more high profile series to enter and be successful in and thats where these manufacturers choose to spend their budget.

On the independents point don't forget the politics that can be involved in trying to get a car that has competed in one series used in another series, a manufacturer can make it very difficult for a team if they feel that they are going to be embarrased in a series they don't compete in themselves.

[stedevil]

JTCC is the Junior TCC and to STCC what the clios are to BTCC, just with a very varied grid of many different manufacturers involved.

And yes, WTCC for sure is struggling with the politics. My own personal theory for why E85 still isn't allowed (even though implemented both in S&BTCC already) is that BMW is actively blocking it.

Since they don't have much of an E85 program of their own, they stand only the risk of losing ground, especially since their own main focus still is the petrol. Ford/Volvo, VAG and GM all have plenty of E85 experience, and the trouble the Volvos caused the BMWs in last years STCC, first year running E85, for sure made them leave marks in their undies. What they for sure did not need for 2008, after 4 successive E/WTCC wins, was to battle both diesels and E85s at once.

[Alfa Fan]

E85 is the only petrol fuel allowed in the WTCC from next year onwards however..

[stedevil]

Has that been confirmed anywhere lately? That webpage I link to has been up there since 2006-2007, and still there is no official FIA S2000 regulation supporting it.

Oh, managed to find a page which still refers to Volvo joining WTCC if ethanol is a allowed fuel
http://www.fiawtcc.com/fiawtcc/sport_sto1087630.shtml

[Bramzel]

Originally Posted by Dead-Eye

At the time of a global food crisis suggesting a switch to a fuel requiring massive amounts of farmland isn't a solution. Maybe with future technology enabling more efficient production of ethanol.

I was planning of staying out of this alternative fuel discussion and I will, I just want to correct this statement because its not true. They are already various ways of making ethanol without harming the food production and they are used already as well. Examples are ethanol out of farm-waste (for example the remains of corn, grain and sugercane after the 'food' part has been taken out) and from alges (is that the correct english word? I mean the green stuff in the water).

[redshoes]

Originally Posted by Bramzel

Examples are ethanol out of farm-waste (for example the remains of corn, grain and sugercane after the 'food' part has been taken out) and from alges (is that the correct english word? I mean the green stuff in the water).

True, but I suspect those processes are not sufficiently scalable. They could only account for a small percentage of the total fuel production required.

[duke_toaster]

I don't think Super 2000 needs any changing at the moment, but here's my idea about a possible future set of regulations (a bit like Speed-King's).

One class - International Touring Formula.

Chassis

Restrictive modification limits.
Spec rear wing and diffuser.
Other aero parts are permitted within rules, but they must be an option on the road car.
All ECUs provided by one company.
Homologated shocks, brakes and gearbox.
Reasonable rules for stripping out.

Engine

Up to 3 litres for petrol naturally aspirated engines. Cars with less than 3 litres can have limited changes to engine internals.
Up to 2.5 litres for turbo naturally apsirated engines. Cars with smaller engines can have limited changes to engine internals.
Up to 2.8 litres for turbodiesel. Cars with smaller engines can have limited changes to engine internals.

Basically, the only engine tuning permitted is chipping (unless a engine is low power) and some replacement of parts with more hard wearing ones.
300 horsepower is the target limit, and any car can be rolling road tested at any time. Cars that get more than 300 horses will have their rev limit lowered or turbocharger pressure lowered.
No performance breaks, but if there is no sensible engine a engine swap will be permitted.

The point of these rules is to keep the engine as standard as possible. Engine tuning is an expensive part of motor racing, so that would scythe the costs (hopefully).

Base model

No four door rule, however the car should be able to seat four adults and have some room for luggage.
Factory built cars must be available at a reasonable price from a normal dealer. I.E. If Ron Dennis walked in to a BMW dealership, and they are racing, they would have to sell him one.
A road car that is just the same as the racing car but road legal must be available.

Expected models

BMW 320i ==> BMW 130i
SEAT Leon FSI ==> SEAT Leon TSI Cupra
Chevrolet Lacetti ==> The new Lacetti VXR
LADA 110 ==> Er... er ...
Vauxhall Vectra ==> Vauxhall Astra VXR
Honda Accord Euro R ==> Honda Civic Type R (engine swap)
VW Golf GTI
Volvo C30
Lancia Delta 1.9 Multijet
MG?
Dodge Calibre SRT4
Audi S3
Toyota (er ...)
Ford Focus ST
Citroen C4 (may need engine swap)
Renault Clio V6
Mercedes CLC Class

Super 2000 cars would be grandfathered in, they would probably be a fagpaper slower, but should be roughly competitive (although S2000 cars have smaller engines they are in a higher state of tune than the ITF engines).

[stedevil]

Originally Posted by redshoes

True, but I suspect those processes are not sufficiently scalable. They could only account for a small percentage of the total fuel production required.

For sure your right, but the answer on short term probably isn't to find an all covering solution. If the above is only enough for 5%, so be it, lets implement that and move on to tackle the reminding 95% instead of getting nowhere by trying to solve the 100% in one fell swoop.

[FIRE]

Politics are the main problem, not the technical rules.

[stedevil]

Originally Posted by duke_toaster

All ECUs provided by one company.

Basically, the only engine tuning permitted is chipping

The point of these rules is to keep the engine as standard as possible. Engine tuning is an expensive part of motor racing, so that would scythe the costs (hopefully).

Im sure that suggestion would create an equal and fair groundset of rules interesting for both drivers and spectators, but it also might lower manufacturer interest due the points I quote since it for them it becomes only a marketing event/series. And yes, it would cut costs, but it also removes the money available from the R&D budgets and puts all of the weight on the marketing budget, which isn't necessarily a good idea.

So, while I think it could work really well for national, even continetal, series, a world series probably would have too high traveling expenses to pay for to be able to pull it off assuming the lack of heavy manufacturer involvment. So the right solution, but probably to the wrong series if WTCC is meant to be apart of it.

[duke_toaster]

Originally Posted by stedevil

Im sure that suggestion would create an equal and fair groundset of rules interesting for both drivers and spectators, but it also might lower manufacturer interest due the points I quote since it for them it becomes only a marketing event/series.

There's little technical development that can be done for WTCC anyway, motorsport is just the longest commerical for a car ever. Manufacturers don't even go in to something like F1 really. There's nothing road relevant that can be derived from motorsports other than possibly some in sportscar racing. I mean, how many road cars do less than 3000km on one engine?

And yes, it would cut costs, but it also removes the money available from the R&D budgets and puts all of the weight on the marketing budget, which isn't necessarily a good idea.

Don't a lot of manufacturers have a motorsport budget, given that it does both?

So, while I think it could work really well for national, even continetal, series, a world series probably would have too high traveling expenses to pay for to be able to pull it off assuming the lack of heavy manufacturer involvment. So the right solution, but probably to the wrong series if WTCC is meant to be apart of it.

Not necessarily, given that the manufacturers will be permitted to race. There's no technical knowledge that can be gained from NASCAR, but four manufacturers still do it (doing 30-odd races across a rather large continent).

[johntt]

Heres my shot at some touring car regs.

Touring S
Large performance saloons/four door coupes built to GT3 specifications. M-cars, AMG, etc.
Sequential/H-pattern gearboxes allowed, no paddle-shifts.
Four wheel drive allowed but with a weight penalty.
Manufacturers can homologate one model in Touring S
Cars eligible:
BMW M5
Mercedes E63 AMG
Mercedes CLS63 AMG
Porsche Panamera
Audi RS6
Jaguar XF-R
Ford Falcon FPV
Holdon Commodore SS
Aston Martin Rapide
Porsche Panamera
Toyota TRD Aurion
Cadillac CTS-V
etc...

Touring A & Touring B
3dr/5dr Hatchbacks, Saloons, Estates and MPVs
Coupes: based on said saloons i.e. 3 Series Coupe, cars with the same platform i.e. VW Scirocco is based on the chassis of the VW Golf, and coupe-convertibles i.e. Peugeot 307cc (with the roof welded shut)
Again, GT3 specifications
H-pattern gearboxes only.
Weight penalty for four wheel drive cars
Manufacturers can homologate up to 2 petrol models per class + one diesel model per class.
Private tuners/specialist companies/individuals with the necessary money can make versions of manufacturers cars that are not already homologlated with the manufacturer's approval.
For every diesel car entered the manufacturer must ensure there is one petrol car entered. i.e. If BMW enter 2 320d then they have to enter 2 petrol cars. This is to stop the series becoming full of diesel cars.

Touring A engines:
Atmospheric: 2001cc to 3000cc
Supercharged: 1801cc to 2700cc
Turbocharged: 1601cc to 2500cc
Twincharged: 1401cc to 2300cc
Diesel: 2001cc to 3000cc

Touring B engines:
Atmospheric: Up to 2000cc
Supercharged: Up to 1800cc
Turbocharged: Up to 1600cc
Twincharged: Up to 1400cc
Diesel: Up to 2000cc

General rules
Less tolerance of body contact.
No success ballast.
No absolute equalisation like FIA-GT3 and FIA-GT4 with the exception of equalising petrol and diesel (more often than not in favour of petrol)
Have some 'mild' equalisation to stop one or two manufacturers running away with it. e.g. the ACO putting 25kg more on the Corvette C6.R and Aston Martin DBR9.
All classes have a spec ECU to keep traction control/stabiliy control/ABS out
No spec tyres and no spec fuel.
Touring S as the main class in WTCC. Continental and National championships can use a mix of S, A and B according to what works best.

[davyboy]

There are two ways to look at touring car racing from a regulatory perspective - pre SuperTouring and post SuperTouring.

Pre SuperTouring were much more akin to what was available on the road. Now before you start shouting at me to say that a Group A Cossie was far removed from a road one, let me finish. I mean that the type of car taken out to race was chosen from the fastest possible road base. The Cossie was one of the fastest road cars of its time, the Ford Capri 3.0S similarly etc...

When punters turned up to see race were highly desireable, very fast cars tweaked, but not too tweaked.

The downside is a class system, quite often boring races and the inevitable one car domination.


Post SuperTouring was as far away from what you drove on the road as can be. ostensibly spec. formulae allowed anybody to race almost anything. Ford never produced a fast desirable Mondeo, yet it was eating up the road in the BTCC. Move forward to S2000 and you have Chevy Lacettis winning at world level. Seriously, what sane man in the street believes that the road going version is anything other than something coffin dodgers buy !

So post super touring has better racing, but creates a more confusing proposition for the punter.

Let's get a gauge on popularity. Top Gear's a good start ! Viewers clearly want to see desireable cars being put through their paces... face-offs if you will. How does an M3 fare against a GTR ? In fact, if you were uninformed of the nuances of S2000... and wanted a windowed car to race, would a Lacetti or a Leon be top of your list ? No it would be something fast ! Similarly for track days.

So, my suggestion is that we go full bore on simplification.

Up to 2000cc and over 2000cc.
Plenty of mods to the engines allowed - nice howling exhausts - we wanna hear the sound of that V8 M3 screaming !
Rose jointed suspension a la group A.
Slicks and some wings... but not too much.

Judicious use of success weight penalties will help in equalization.

[kristof14]

Originally Posted by johntt

Heres my shot at some touring car regs.

Touring S
Large performance saloons/four door coupes built to GT3 specifications. M-cars, AMG, etc.
Sequential/H-pattern gearboxes allowed, no paddle-shifts.
Four wheel drive allowed but with a weight penalty.
Manufacturers can homologate one model in Touring S
Cars eligible:
BMW M5
Mercedes E63 AMG
Mercedes CLS63 AMG
Porsche Panamera
Audi RS6
Jaguar XF-R
Ford Falcon FPV
Holdon Commodore SS
Aston Martin Rapide
Porsche Panamera
Toyota TRD Aurion
Cadillac CTS-V
etc...

I feel that this is completely the wrong type of car that should be used for touring cars, Touring cars are supposed to be about cars most people can afford to buy. The cars you have suggested are more suited to be featured in GT racing even so far as you say build them to GT3 spec.

[redshoes]

Originally Posted by FIRE

Politics are the main problem, not the technical rules.

Quoted for truth.

There's trend both in this thread and on this forum in general of saying how bad the WTCC is, whilst at the same time saying how good the STCC and BTCC have become recently, despite them all using the same technical regs.


I find it interesting that the proposal suggested so far have ranged from a glorified 'hot hatch' to a GT-spec luxo-barge. You'd struggle to find two further extremes, and I can't I'm keen on either.

There is a lot to be said for the current GT3 formula. Cars are factory approved but not factory run, which hopefully stops the inevitable upward spiral of costs. Equalisation is done via independent tests which stops some of the sandbagging. It's a formula that seems to work at both national and international level, grids at the FIA meetings are near full and the racing isn't that bad either. Quite how you translate that into a saloon car equivalent I don't know.

[stedevil]

Originally Posted by duke_toaster

There's little technical development that can be done for WTCC anyway, motorsport is just the longest commerical for a car ever. Manufacturers don't even go in to something like F1 really. There's nothing road relevant that can be derived from motorsports other than possibly some in sportscar racing. I mean, how many road cars do less than 3000km on one engine?

In the case of NA petrol otto engines, I fully agree. It has had 100+ years of racing development already and the possible strides forward are miniscule at best. That is why I want to see TDIs, T E85, Bio-gas etc etc. Those are still in their infancy or teens at best, with still loads of potential unfound performance reserves.

Not necessarily, given that the manufacturers will be permitted to race. There's no technical knowledge that can be gained from NASCAR, but four manufacturers still do it (doing 30-odd races across a rather large continent).

I already literally stated that your format would work for continental racing. But there is a big difference from loading your cars on a truck 2-3 days before a race and loading your cars on a boat 3 weeks before the race. The logistics of personel and material are very far from each other from a continental to a world series, in a way that make the costs increase dramatically.

[stedevil]

Originally Posted by davyboy

Plenty of mods to the engines allowed - nice howling exhausts - we wanna hear the sound of that V8 M3 screaming !

We, equaling people on this forum, might do. But the people living near a track dont. The obvious logical answer is of course "dont buy a house next to a track if you dont want to hear cars racing" but it seems, especially in the UK, the tracks are losing that battle. Crazy IMO, but unfortunately the reality.

[racer69]

Originally Posted by kristof14

I feel that this is completely the wrong type of car that should be used for touring cars, Touring cars are supposed to be about cars most people can afford to buy. The cars you have suggested are more suited to be featured in GT racing even so far as you say build them to GT3 spec.

Prior to Super Touring those were exactly the types of cars used for touring car racing (well, not the Porsche's or Aston's which are mentioned)

In Australia at least the focus is on big Commodore's and Falcon's, they have been a part of our touring car racing for decades.

[kristof14]

Originally Posted by racer69

Prior to Super Touring those were exactly the types of cars used for touring car racing (well, not the Porsche's or Aston's which are mentioned)

In Australia at least the focus is on big Commodore's and Falcon's, they have been a part of our touring car racing for decades.

Fair enough, although being just 23 my own direct contact with Touring Cars has been mainly with Super Touring and the formats after that.

I find Australia a special case as the cars used are not widely available in the rest of the world, in fact the only V8 car I've seen over here was raced in our GT championship. I guess it shows the different attitudes around the world as to what cars are regarded as GT cars and what are regarded as Toruing Cars.

[davyboy]

The Oz V8s you see racing aren't common on the streets there either. They're a brute of a road car on steroids... exactly like the E30 M3 or the Sierra Cosworth. OK there's only two possible variants in V8 Supercars... but the public get to see some very exciting hardware [modded for racing] and the roadgoing version is the kind of thing that you would consider racing. Not like a Peugeot 406, Proton Impian, Vauxhall Vectra, Chevrolet Lacetti, SEAT Leon...

[duke_toaster]

Originally Posted by johntt

Heres my shot at some touring car regs.

Touring S
Large performance saloons/four door coupes built to GT3 specifications. M-cars, AMG, etc.
Sequential/H-pattern gearboxes allowed, no paddle-shifts.
Four wheel drive allowed but with a weight penalty.
Manufacturers can homologate one model in Touring S
Cars eligible:
BMW M5
Ford Falcon FPV
Holdon Commodore SS
Aston Martin Rapide
Porsche Panamera
Cadillac CTS-V
etc...

Touring cars should be about performance versions of normal road cars, not supercars with room for screaming kids. And how exactly would you get knobble the BMW, Aston and Porker to get it to race with the Falcon and Commo?

Besides, the only current manufacturer that has a car in that is BMW, and I don't think they particularly want to flog the 5-Series.

Touring A & Touring B
3dr/5dr Hatchbacks, Saloons, Estates and MPVs

People carrier racing? That's a good idea, but I think it would be pretty crazy to run a Clio in the same class as an Espace.

Touring A engines:
Atmospheric: 2001cc to 3000cc
Supercharged: 1801cc to 2700cc
Turbocharged: 1601cc to 2500cc
Twincharged: 1401cc to 2300cc
Diesel: 2001cc to 3000cc

Touring B engines:
Atmospheric: Up to 2000cc
Supercharged: Up to 1800cc
Turbocharged: Up to 1600cc
Twincharged: Up to 1400cc
Diesel: Up to 2000cc

What sort of state of tune? My figures (3000cc NA or 2500cc turbo producing 300bhp) , after doing a bit of research could probably be done on most of the cars if they are chipped, new air filters, straightout exhausts etc. without changing innards. In fact, that's all I would allow. If the engines are in a lower state of tune (and the development is heavily limited) they can last longer.

[kristof14]

[QUOTE=duke_toaster]People carrier racing? That's a good idea,[QUOTE]

As seen on Top Gear

[stedevil]

Originally Posted by kristof14

Fair enough, although being just 23 my own direct contact with Touring Cars has been mainly with Super Touring and the formats after that.

It's not your age, it's the location. Even back in the 80ies TC in Europe was eg Volvo 240 and BMW 3xx.