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Old 15 Mar 2008, 06:55 (Ref:2152230)   #51
top dog
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Originally Posted by GTRMagic
What was wrong with the power/weight formula from the pre-Carrera Cup days of the Porsche championship?

Power delivery is always an issue...
There was nothing wrong with it. Competition was close and race wins were spread between the turbos and the GT3/Cup cars.
Different cars with different power, handling and braking characteristics make for exciting racing not processional as are some of the one-make series.
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Old 15 Mar 2008, 06:56 (Ref:2152232)   #52
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Originally Posted by GT's screwed the pooch
Top dog, I am sure the GT's or Intermarque will welcome you with open arms.
The turbo car is not allowed in GT. Remarkably similar attitude to you SS -- very short on facts -but very long on innaccurate "opinions".
In short summary-- yes Intermarque do allow turbo cars of all manufacturers .History shows that there has been a remarkable eveness of the contest when that happens-- despite the paper appearances, Even your friend the "porker" recently had a victory over 993 turbo-- which incidentally that particular turbo was built to the spec it is by mindless prejudice--- ie the old Porsche Cup rules that refused to allow the 993 twin turbo to run and saw the engines built with single turbos for years -- in the ill concieved notion that this would make the cars slower etc. If you bother to look at the history of the Porsche Cup after the GT3 appeared-- only once did turbo win-- and that was due to the GT3 drivers being slow that year( by way of comparison to other years).
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Old 15 Mar 2008, 07:54 (Ref:2152244)   #53
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It seems that there is so much ignorance existing about the "magic" of the Porsche turbos.
Most of the Porsche turbos that are racing or have been raced in Australia were built from road cars and unfortunately didn't have the benefit of the Porsche factory TAG or Formula 1 engine development programmes. In fact most of the twin turbos have stock factory internals with some external bolt-on upgrades, unlike many of the upgraded GT3/Cup engines, many of which have RSR components.
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Old 15 Mar 2008, 11:02 (Ref:2152323)   #54
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All you 'turbo fans' could in fact call yourselves turbo's............cause just like the real turbo, you too just blow wind..............
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Old 15 Mar 2008, 11:56 (Ref:2152373)   #55
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It's been interesting following this thread; there seem to be those who are anti-turbo, but yet are unable to come up with anything specific as to why the turbos aren't able to be regulated and equally they avoid the issue of how to regulate the non-turbo cars? If there were several classes ,as there are in many series, then the turbos and RS/RSR's could be in one class, say "open", the factory spec Cup Cars would be Cup Car Class etc etc.
There has to be a number of classes in any event ,as a std spec GT3 or NA 993's would not be competitive with the Cup Cars in a one class structure.
Porsche Cup had A, B,& C classes and also occassionally had a 944 class, that worked for some 16+ years until Carrera Cup took the Porsche Cup CMA.
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Old 15 Mar 2008, 14:11 (Ref:2152493)   #56
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Originally Posted by GT's screwed the pooch
I am filling out my expressions of interest form now..............I hope Jodi does as good a job running this as she did Carrera Cup....This series is going to be great, I can't wait.
All i need now is a car, anyone know where ther is any good 996 GT3 Cup Cars for sale??????

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Old 17 Mar 2008, 05:33 (Ref:2154370)   #57
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I am curious: Turbos seem to be effectively regulated in a wide range of classes around the world and in Aust IPRA immediately springs to mind as a mixed class. So what are the issues that make them uncontrollable in a Porsche?
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Old 17 Mar 2008, 06:29 (Ref:2154385)   #58
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Originally Posted by Nero
I am curious: Turbos seem to be effectively regulated in a wide range of classes around the world and in Aust IPRA immediately springs to mind as a mixed class. So what are the issues that make them uncontrollable in a Porsche?
The prejudice is promoted out of self interest-- Porsche have not made turbo race cars since 1998(lots of turbo road cars-note) and coincidentally that same year the N/A GT3 was introduced. From that point on( a few years on to flow to Australia) Porsche themselves have done whatever to rule turbos out.Ironically? using similar language to Sheep Stations in this thread. Calling them "home made" specials and other non factual names.
It ought to be pointed out that historically some fantastic turbo race cars have dominated sportscar racing-- great cars that they were- their reputations were created in a period without much opposition- often overlooked that point.
Another issue that needs stating-- Porsche engines are relatively archaic deign when compared to modern Japanese engines that are capable of running relatively high boost levels-- the Porsche designs cannot reliably( read that as not very long at all) sustain high boost levels .This is a major issue that the knockers of convenience (to their own ends) are both ignorant of and do not want to listen to. It is another case of forget the facts --opinions prevail!!
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Old 17 Mar 2008, 06:30 (Ref:2154387)   #59
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Originally Posted by GT's screwed the pooch
Turbo's dont belong in a category where the organisers care about costs.
Turbo's just cant be controlled effectively and that inevitably leads to cheque book racing.
Turbo's belong in GT's where cost and performance have no limits..........
And you know this how?
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Old 17 Mar 2008, 06:37 (Ref:2154390)   #60
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Originally Posted by GTRMagic
What was wrong with the power/weight formula from the pre-Carrera Cup days of the Porsche championship?

Power delivery is always an issue...
History shows remarkably even performance results and racing--- since GT3 arrival the N/A car came out on top every year except one-- when GT3 drivers were very slow( all due respect to winner that year)
The exclusion has nothing to do with facts. It is Porsche with theirs hands up everybodies back.... pulling the strings.
It also needs to be stated that the same people were prepared to shove the old Porsche Cup out the door when they wanted Carrera Cup and after causing all that pain now want to walk back in, albeit with themselves in the drivers seat and a few puppets to front it.
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Old 17 Mar 2008, 08:19 (Ref:2154438)   #61
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Originally Posted by Silver 3
The prejudice is promoted out of self interest-- Porsche have not made turbo race cars since 1998(lots of turbo road cars-note) and coincidentally that same year the N/A GT3 was introduced. From that point on( a few years on to flow to Australia) Porsche themselves have done whatever to rule turbos out.Ironically? using similar language to Sheep Stations in this thread. Calling them "home made" specials and other non factual names.
It ought to be pointed out that historically some fantastic turbo race cars have dominated sportscar racing-- great cars that they were- their reputations were created in a period without much opposition- often overlooked that point.
Another issue that needs stating-- Porsche engines are relatively archaic deign when compared to modern Japanese engines that are capable of running relatively high boost levels-- the Porsche designs cannot reliably( read that as not very long at all) sustain high boost levels .This is a major issue that the knockers of convenience (to their own ends) are both ignorant of and do not want to listen to. It is another case of forget the facts --opinions prevail!!
It must be hard being an 'eddie expert' on everything hey Silver3?... I remember chipping you a while back for your personal attacks on another writer didn't I?. Now I'll have to bring you into line again as you have attacked my language as being anti-turbo. I've reviewed all my comments and find no anti-turbo sentiment at all. Because there is none.

You must be either an embittered ex-competitor or a failed promotor hey?...whatever.

As a fact (something you like to state as being your personal domain, the rest of us only have opinions) I have driven 911 turbos extensively and with some success in my own motorsport fishbowl and have no prejudice against them, far from it. But now I have a Cup Car and would like to race other guys with similar equipment in a cost effective competition...ooohh, it must be an evil plan to dominate the motorsport world. Get over it.

I nearly let the absolute cr@p that you write about Porsche turbo engines being archaic go, but its not my style. Fact:the basic crankcase style is from the 930turbo in the 964,993,996 turbos as well as the 964,993rs and GT3 normally aspirated engine. Fact:Porsche design standard is for the production engine to be less than half the horsepower output that the short engine can cope with. With a standard 996 turbo putting out 431 horsepower, you do the math, and they don't break.

...spent many a track day watching 'hi-tech' Japanese turbo's with a gizzilion horsepower leaving early on a flatbed whilst I merrily circulated in a 996 turbo doing quicker lap times with the a/c on.

Next time you want to run off me in this thread, get your facts straight Silver3.
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Old 17 Mar 2008, 08:35 (Ref:2154446)   #62
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well, I am glad that has passed, but can someone address the topic: why cannot turbo's be controlled in a Porsche racing series. If any manufacturer has the turbo history, Porsche do.
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Old 17 Mar 2008, 08:38 (Ref:2154452)   #63
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Originally Posted by GT's screwed the pooch
Turbo's dont belong in a category where the organisers care about costs.
Turbo's just cant be controlled effectively and that inevitably leads to cheque book racing.
Turbo's belong in GT's where cost and performance have no limits..........
I guess these are the type of comments that are seen as being anti-turbo and made in ignorance. The statement about turbos not able to be cotrolled is just plain wrong and illustrates the writers lack of understanding of the subject. Just my .02c worth.
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Old 17 Mar 2008, 08:44 (Ref:2154460)   #64
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Originally Posted by Nero
well, I am glad that has passed, but can someone address the topic: why cannot turbo's be controlled in a Porsche racing series. If any manufacturer has the turbo history, Porsche do.
It's easy, just controll the boost and log the data to check. A turbo engines output is directly related to the amount of boost, control the boost and it's done. This is much easier to control and log than a "hot" naturally aspirated engine. I have seen so-called std GT3's outdrag a twin turbo in a straight line on the race track, the turbo was controlled and under scrutiny but the GT3 wasn't looked at?
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Old 17 Mar 2008, 08:58 (Ref:2154467)   #65
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Turbo controls currently in use around the world (I have no doubt there are more): intake restrictors, preset blow off valves, fuel restrictors, control fuel, boost logging, control engines, control turbos...what else?
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Old 17 Mar 2008, 09:04 (Ref:2154474)   #66
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Originally Posted by Sheep Stations

I nearly let the absolute cr@p that you write about Porsche turbo engines being archaic go, but its not my style. Fact:the basic crankcase style is from the 930turbo in the 964,993,996 turbos as well as the 964,993rs and GT3 normally aspirated engine. Fact:Porsche design standard is for the production engine to be less than half the horsepower output that the short engine can cope with. With a standard 996 turbo putting out 431 horsepower, you do the math, and they don't break.

...spent many a track day watching 'hi-tech' Japanese turbo's with a gizzilion horsepower leaving early on a flatbed whilst I merrily circulated in a 996 turbo doing quicker lap times with the a/c on.
You need to read more carefully what is actually said--- my comments on turbo engines are from experience -yes-- mine and many others-- and not exclusively Porsche. Your last paragraph actually gets it right-- push the boost boundaries and the the end result is as you say. You then talk of the 996 T continuing to circulate-- undoubtedly stock set up. That is the point I am making-- start modifying to far and the turbo problems arise. It is exactly that point that I was referring to on design. The Porsche engine is remarkably long lasting effective design-- but it cannot take high boost numbers-- like some of the newer Japanese designs . Start boosting the Porsche engine to the sort of numbers used on some of the Jap engines and it will be a major problem. Fact not fiction. This is not intended as a criticism-- a statement of fact. The confusion of reality by many people -and some should know better-helps create and fuel the myth trhat all yopu do to a turbo engine is raise the boost levels and you have nirvana.. Throwing out there the nonsense is uhelpfull in general.
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Old 17 Mar 2008, 09:08 (Ref:2154478)   #67
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Originally Posted by Bee Jay
I guess these are the type of comments that are seen as being anti-turbo and made in ignorance. The statement about turbos not able to be cotrolled is just plain wrong and illustrates the writers lack of understanding of the subject. Just my .02c worth.
Have to agree with you about the language Bee Jay, probably doesn't reflect the background for the new category.

Everything can be controlled, including turbos...at a price. After reading the info pack on the GT3 Cup Challenge, cost limitation is one of the main mission statements.

If you have to hire a tech director, bring scales, a dyno etc etc, it won't be a cheap series anymore. I would think that if you start blowing everyone off, you'll carry some weight, whether its because you've had a Fitzy upgrade...or because you're just to good!

Turbo's are not part of the program, pure and simple, they'll have to race elsewhere. It's not some huge conspiracy against turbos...gee, I don't hear the 356 register whinging that they're not invited.
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Old 17 Mar 2008, 09:14 (Ref:2154483)   #68
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Originally Posted by Sheep Stations
It must be hard being an 'eddie expert' on everything hey Silver3?... I remember chipping you a while back for your personal attacks on another writer didn't I?. Now I'll have to bring you into line again as you have attacked my language as being anti-turbo. I've reviewed all my comments and find no anti-turbo sentiment at all. Because there is none.

You must be either an embittered ex-competitor or a failed promotor hey?...whatever.



Next time you want to run off me in this thread, get your facts straight Silver3.
Interesting that you choose to get so excited-- you do not own the thread-or the forum-- it is in the public arena-- so expect comment. The fact that you do not like the comment does not make it wrong. I did not previously bother responding to your comments- so that should tell you something.
Generally speaking my view of many of your posts that they are naive and rather than sounding like Iam carping I desist from comment. I will email you with more!
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Old 17 Mar 2008, 20:55 (Ref:2155063)   #69
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Bemused Silver3, not excited. You're right, it is a public forum, but don't confuse your own parallel universe as being the only domain of fact.

You continue by making assumptions such as my experience with 996tt being 'undoubtedly stock set up'.

Try 650hp, race suspension, 380mm front discs with 8 pot calipers...and never missed a beat.

Don't bother emailing me...sorry, don't bother me.
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Old 17 Mar 2008, 21:58 (Ref:2155122)   #70
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[quote=Sheep Stations]
Try 650hp, race suspension, 380mm front discs with 8 pot calipers...and never missed a beat.



If you were running a 650hp turbo with big brakes etc; how did the lap times compare to a 996 Cup Car which has 400+hp, smaller brakes etc?
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Old 17 Mar 2008, 22:15 (Ref:2155130)   #71
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Originally Posted by Sheep Stations
Have to agree with you about the language Bee Jay, probably doesn't reflect the background for the new category.

Everything can be controlled, including turbos...at a price. After reading the info pack on the GT3 Cup Challenge, cost limitation is one of the main mission statements.

If you have to hire a tech director, bring scales, a dyno etc etc, it won't be a cheap series anymore. I would think that if you start blowing everyone off, you'll carry some weight, whether its because you've had a Fitzy upgrade...or because you're just to good!

Turbo's are not part of the program, pure and simple, they'll have to race elsewhere. It's not some huge conspiracy against turbos...gee, I don't hear the 356 register whinging that they're not invited.
You are right, it is pretty simple, if someone runs away from the others in their class because they are a Senna or have been to Fitzy, then they get weight or some sort of handicap (I think they do that to race horses?:-),) Wouldn't matter if the car has a turbo or an RSR kit in a GT3 body.

Most circuits do have a weighbridge, so monitoring the weight is a no-brainer.

One point that is being missed is that this series is using the Porsche Drivers Challenge CMA, and PDC always included the turbos. If you refer to the PDC regs , you will see the restrictions, controls etc that were placed on the 993 T/turbos. These turbos and the GT3's of the day were ultra competitive with each other. The turbos typically have more torque down low and the 996's are faster top end, so it makes for interesting racing rather than the processions that happen when all cars have the same characteristics.
PDC was/is a race series owned and run by the competitors who owned their own Porsche race cars and catered for most models and configerations.
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Old 17 Mar 2008, 22:23 (Ref:2155137)   #72
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Originally Posted by Nero
Turbo controls currently in use around the world (I have no doubt there are more): intake restrictors, preset blow off valves, fuel restrictors, control fuel, boost logging, control engines, control turbos...what else?
You right, but put simply all of these methods result in control of the boost and the max power is a direct function of boost.
So limit the boost and log it so there is no fudging.
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Old 17 Mar 2008, 23:26 (Ref:2155201)   #73
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Keep talking to the organisers then Top Dog... If the parity can be controlled, as a competitor I couldn't care less who I race and how wide in the bum it is...but with 30 odd Cup Cars and more log booked GT3's out there, I can understand why there is focus on these cars rather than an attitude of exclusion.

Hard to quantify the lap times between the 650hp 996 turbo and the Cup Car.
The turbo weighed 1650kg's and was on club tyres and was not far off my Cup Car times on slicks. A week on Jenny Craig and some stickier rubber and it would hose the Cup Car...with the a/c on.
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Old 17 Mar 2008, 23:32 (Ref:2155206)   #74
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Originally Posted by Sheep Stations
Keep talking to the organisers then Top Dog... If the parity can be controlled, as a competitor I couldn't care less who I race and how wide in the bum it is...but with 30 odd Cup Cars and more log booked GT3's out there, I can understand why there is focus on these cars rather than an attitude of exclusion.

Hard to quantify the lap times between the 650hp 996 turbo and the Cup Car.
The turbo weighed 1650kg's and was on club tyres and was not far off my Cup Car times on slicks. A week on Jenny Craig and some stickier rubber and it would hose the Cup Car...with the a/c on.
Let's humour us all-- what was the precise best time achieved in the 996 TT.? Ditto -what is your best in C/Car?
Nothing like some factual information to help us all understand.
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Old 18 Mar 2008, 01:49 (Ref:2155269)   #75
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thats enough, all you blokes will drown in ya own dribble soon. I have never heard so much bull**** in all my life. I am glad I have a life outside this forum, unlike some on here...........................
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