Maximum age limit

Redlake27 · 2 Feb 2005, 08:23 (Ref:1215251)

Max Mosley has suggested a maximum age limit for F1 drivers. Whilst this could clear out some Patreses, Panis and DC types, it would also deny us Michael Schumacher.

I reckon a better meritocracy would be the following:

Superlicences can only be issued to race winners in GP2, A1, Champcar, IRL or champions in F3 or similar level series.

To keep a superlicence drivers have to score a point within 3 years of entering F1 or they are out, maybe back to GP2

Within 5 years a driver has to have scored a podium, or they are out
Within 10 years they have to have scored a win, or they are out

OK, it is a tall order to get a point in a Minardi, but those who have been good enough in a Minardi, such as Trulli, Fisi, Webber and Alonso have been promotedto something better within a year. Assuming the logic that cream rises (and there would be more vacancies after a clear out), anyone decent in a midfield team has a good chance of a podium. (OK - it took Button 5 years, but Alonso, Trulli, Fisi, both Schumachers, Montoya, Heidfeld, Kimi, etc etc all had a podium early in their careers.)

This would allow enough flexibility to allow talented paydrivers in.....

What do you reckon?

**Adam43** · 2 Feb 2005, 09:04 (Ref:1215270)

Unless is was very strict, i.e. two years and that is it, it would make little difference. This would be a bad thing. On the basis that DC still has a drive he does offer something to a team owner over A.N.Other. I guess it is also against several EU laws!

And why is losing a Patrese a good thing?

On your suggestion, yes maybe tightening up the superlicence is a good idea. Although poor Kimi...

x_acto · 2 Feb 2005, 09:05 (Ref:1215272)

I think Max Mosley's suggestions are becoming Ridiculous.

Kicking-back · 2 Feb 2005, 09:07 (Ref:1215276)

Max Mosley suggested an age limit of 35 for the second car.

You have to go back twelve years to Williams in 1992, IIRC, to find a team with two drivers older than 35.

So in reality this would have made no difference the vast majority of the time.

Super Tourer · 2 Feb 2005, 09:07 (Ref:1215277)

The proposal was for a maximum age limit for the second driver in a team, not drivers per se.

It's one of a number of proposals, however this one is unlikely to get very far as it will probably arouse the attention of the EU and their terms of employment law.

As for introducing requirements like wins, podiums and point scoring often (but not always) the results are out of a drivers hand - lets say driver A was on course to score a couple of podiums in the 5 year period you suggest but retired on each occasion with mechanical failure- Force majeure?

Also the podium is totally dominated by a handful of teams, even in a well run team like Sauber a podium place is very hard to achieve.

joe rossi · 2 Feb 2005, 09:16 (Ref:1215285)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Super Tourer

The proposal was for a maximum age limit for the second driver in a team, not drivers per se.

I missed the reason that Max thought this was a good idea. What was this proposal supposed to achieve? There are already loads of very young drivers in F1, it's not as if they can't find a berth if they are good enough. Putting aside the pay driver issue, drivers get drives based on their ability (in the eyes of the team employing them). What has age got to do with it?

It would also be totally descrimatory in the eyes of European law anyway. The superlicense issue is interesting, but banning drivers with no points would be very unfair on the drivers of underfunded teams wouldn't it?

Kicking-back · 2 Feb 2005, 09:18 (Ref:1215287)

It was all proposed to create discussion anyway - it works!

BootsOntheSide · 2 Feb 2005, 09:28 (Ref:1215294)

Kimi would've surely got there a year later, after a successful F3000 season and could've quite feasibly still risen into a McLaren drive by now. Otherwise, virtually every other current top F1 driver woulvd've got into F1 and survived long enough to start winning races and championships.

The 1992 Williams example is interesting - it seems to me that Patrese was a waste of the second car. He surely didn't add anything to Mansell's championship challenge, and can't've learnt anything from the season. Comapre his performance to Mcihael Schumacher the next year and it's clear that he was over the hill by then. It would've been much better if an Alesi, a Hakkinen or a Damon Hill had got that car as a chance to improve and record some good results.

RaceFreak · 2 Feb 2005, 10:29 (Ref:1215339)

I believe we need a maximum age limit for FIA chairmen.

BSchneiderFan · 2 Feb 2005, 10:49 (Ref:1215356)

Patrese did finish second in the championship in 1992, and took a win or two and some poles. (I still think it would have been interesting to see how Mansell would have fared against Patrese if the 1992 car had been passive.)

**Adam43** · 2 Feb 2005, 11:06 (Ref:1215373)

In addition the choise for him to drive for Williams in '92 was made in '91 when he had a good year.

I don't get this age limit. The complaints are that other factors get in the way of stopping decent drivers getting a seat. I don't think the introduction of a restrictive factor (not based on previous performance) is the way forward. In addition teams should be allowed to employ who they want.

BootsOntheSide · 2 Feb 2005, 11:06 (Ref:1215374)

Anyone could've finished second in that car. And every time Mansell and Patrese were team-mates with active suspension (1988, 1991 and 1992) Mansell dominated, irrespective of the quality of the active suspension system itself (and of the car in general). It was only for those first few races of 1991 that Ricardo was a real rival.

Anyway, a Patrese-bash wasn't my intention. I was merely trying to support this rule in the context it has been put forward.

Steve Wilkinson · 2 Feb 2005, 11:13 (Ref:1215377)

I feel sure there would be a case for this proposal to be tested in the European Courts. I strikes me of discrimination on the grounds of age and had nothing to do with the ability to do the job. I suspect Max as a lawyer knows this and the whole 'New Proposals' scam is just to wind everyone up. He will then come out with some far less contraversial proposals which will be accepted with a huge sigh of relief!

Let's face it the Bernie and Max Show is with us for some time.

Both are shrewd operators and both know that the top rule to follow in F1 is...

Divide and Conquer

Don K · 2 Feb 2005, 12:21 (Ref:1215451)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve Wilkinson

I feel sure there would be a case for this proposal to be tested in the European Courts.

If I remember correctly, some time ago the UCI (cycling) has introduced a rule that all competitors in the World Championhip had to be younger than 40 years old (just after 40-year-old Joop Zoetemelk had won the World Championship).

Has that rule ever been withdrawn?
If the rule still stands, FIA might have a chance if they were to introduce a maximum age.

mueber · 2 Feb 2005, 12:28 (Ref:1215456)

I think drivers should be hired because the team owner, sponsor, fans, etc. want them.

**Adam43** · 2 Feb 2005, 12:33 (Ref:1215461)

A novel idea there mueber

One that I agree with completely.

DougK · 2 Feb 2005, 12:50 (Ref:1215477)

Age, race, etc should have nothing to do with it and certainly should not be used to restrict the entrance of a driver in F1.

As far as I am concerned as long as the driver is not a danger to himself or anyone else (i.e. they are in good health and capeable of driving the car at a decent speed) then there should be no restrictions.

If a driver is 50 then there should be nothing stopping him from racing in F1 as long as he can keep up the pace.

I am not a MS supporter (though I think he is an excellent driver and the best there is in the field) but if he wants to continue into his 40's then he should be allowed to do so! F1 should have the best drivers........... the ones the teams want............and the ones that entertain the fans.

Lucylu · 2 Feb 2005, 13:10 (Ref:1215495)

I can't see a age limit coming into force, if the drivers are fit enough to drive the cars and are competive to race and they should be able to do so how ever old they are.

**Adam43** · 2 Feb 2005, 14:21 (Ref:1215543)

There is a new thread on 10 Tenths which shows one way to get new drivers into F1: http://tentenths.com/forum/showthread.php?t=64976

That is a good way to get younger drivers in, as opposed to having an age cap. Find new driver that can beat the old drivers or develop the new drivers so they can beat the old drivers.

GP Racer · 2 Feb 2005, 14:31 (Ref:1215550)

It seems that this rule would be implemented to get rid of Michael.

Assuming MS was mandatorily retired because of age, would we ever look at the first WDC without him as legitimate? Probably not IMO...

BootsOntheSide · 2 Feb 2005, 14:44 (Ref:1215559)

I think a lot of you have missed the point here - the age limit would only apply to the second driver in a team, and wouldn't've affected any team's selections for over a decade.

**Aysedasi** · 2 Feb 2005, 18:01 (Ref:1215735)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Don K

If I remember correctly, some time ago the UCI (cycling) has introduced a rule that all competitors in the World Championhip had to be younger than 40 years old (just after 40-year-old Joop Zoetemelk had won the World Championship).

Has that rule ever been withdrawn?
If the rule still stands, FIA might have a chance if they were to introduce a maximum age.

Has the rule ever been challenged in the Courts though? I agree that to apply a age rule irrespective of any other test to determine capability would almost certainly be illegal.

**Adam43** · 2 Feb 2005, 18:14 (Ref:1215747)

Quote:

Originally Posted by BootsOntheSide

I think a lot of you have missed the point here - the age limit would only apply to the second driver in a team, and wouldn't've affected any team's selections for over a decade.

Yes, in terms of getting reid of Michael it wouldn't work - unless Ferrari nominate him as no.2 driver

Generally, it is still wrong.

Snrub · 2 Feb 2005, 18:14 (Ref:1215748)

I really don't think that age restrictions pose any purpose. Teams should be allowed to employ whomever they like and frankly I think we could use more seasoned but successful drivers. The success requirement is not workable in modern F1. A driver on the bottom teams is highly unlikely to acheive much of a measure of success on pure merit, so essentially it would be mandating one to be lucky rather than skilled.

As for Minardi drivers rising to the top, I think that was more relavent when Minardi was able to compete with the other teams. Things have gotten tougher for the small teams. The Jordan of 2004 was more in line with the Minardi of a few years ago. Judging by the names being mentioned for Jordan this year and their pre-Midland budget contraints, their success for this year is questionable. I hope the Toyota engine means they will be able to compete, but I fear they won't be able to.

Wrex · 3 Feb 2005, 02:54 (Ref:1216100)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Redlake27

I reckon a better meritocracy would be the following:

Superlicences can only be issued to race winners in GP2, A1, Champcar, IRL or champions in F3 or similar level series.

To keep a superlicence drivers have to score a point within 3 years of entering F1 or they are out, maybe back to GP2

Within 5 years a driver has to have scored a podium, or they are out
Within 10 years they have to have scored a win, or they are out

Are you sure your not Max, this idea is even worse! For starters, I think you have more drivers leaving F1 than joining!

We would have to assume the ones leaving are going from lessor teams, what CART champ wants to join Minardi?

Then there is the list of current drivers that are very good, that would'nt have seen a F1 car.

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