Hans Question

[andy97]

I am considering buying a HANS device for next season but there appear to be two slightly different versions available:

One made by Schroth, with a flat upper surface to the yoke and some sort of "non slip" surface, and the other made by Dr Hubbard (the original designer of the HANS device) and Stand 21 with small "flip ups" or raised sides at the outer edge of the Yoke. The raised sides are designed to help retain the seat belts.

Does anyone have any experience of these two designs and any comments on the 2 different methods of retaining the belts. The Hubbard/ Stand 21 version is slightly more expensive but I would pay the extra if I thought that it was better.

[kickstart]

hi andy,
sorry dont know anything about hans devices. If you go to the autosport show or the historic show you can normally get a discount, also if you are a 750MC member then dont forget you get 10% off from Demon Tweeks.
Have you sold your car now ?

[Chris Y]

Can't help you with the choice I'm afraid, but I have often wondered about this belt-retention issue.

Wouldn't it be slightly better to cross the belts at the front? Ok, you'd have to modify the belt buckles, but it would keep the belts on the device better.

[Tim Draffan]

I have noticed that the Schroth harnesses are described as "HANS specefic" or "not HANS compatible", not sure about ther maskes though.

[Tim Falce]

Andy, I've emailed this to my team mate who may be able to assist, we were looking at both makes earlier this year and he has recently bought one so would be a good guide

[Larry J-Croft]

Spooky or what? I was just about to start a thread on HANS devices and Andy got there before me. However my line is slightly different. I have looked a the reasons for having one and must agree they make sense. What doesn't make sense is a price tag of £600 and the helmet modification costs on top. The device is only a yoke that fits under the belts and two straps to the helmet. Presumably it is made of carbon fibre to keep the weight down. That said, I can't see it costing more than £50 to make and whilst I know that defraying development costs, markups, paying the wages etc means we have to pay more, I reckon that once again the 'lets rip off the rich motor racers' syndrome is at work (see the thread on timing transponders). They even cost more for different seat reclining angles, ie a single seater one is more expensive than a saloon. How can this be justified? (presumably us single seater drivers have bigger pockets!)

Of course you can say that anything that potentially saves life is worth paying for (as I am sure the manufaturers do!) but personally I have to draw some form of line and £600 is too high.

[jminsh]

Andy i've pm'd you

[jminsh]

Originally Posted by Larry J-Croft

I have to draw some form of line and £600 is too high.

Fine but bare in mind that you can't take the £600 with you to hell/heaven (delete which ever fits you best)

[Chris Y]

I love these arguments

If HANS becomes compulsory, and stays at £600, it'll be the most effective protection known in motor racing - no one will be able to afford to endanger their own lives anymore

[Chris Y]

Actually, I should say WHEN HANS becomes compulsory, not if. A recent FIA press release:

From January 1, 2008, an FIA-approved head restraint (HANS) will be mandatory for all drivers and co-drivers in all FIA championships, trophies, cups and challenges. From January 1, 2009 it will be mandatory for entrants in all other events entered on the FIA International Sporting Calendar.

[Tim Falce]

..and I expect they will have a dated certificate on them so they will have to be renewed every 5 years

[retro_msport]

But perhaps.... just perhaps they could be worth an extra second a lap...

" I've got my HANS device on so i can try harder"

I have to agree with the cost, and i dont have to buy one, wouldnt attach to my welding helmet anyway, and as someone who dosnt have to pay for it and it still strikes me as being over price it must be, as stated the cost of design and testing must be taken into account, but then so should future sales. And also as it becomes a compulsary safety item, shouldnt the VAT be taken off it.

Also if a championship decides to make it a must have before racing rule, can they not buy them in to be passed on to the entrants at cost, In that i mean the sellers must be making 30% on them ... that would drop it to £420 instead of £600, amd I would say that places like Demon Tweeks have a bigger mark up than 30%

[jminsh]

Originally Posted by retro_msport

I would say that places like Demon Tweeks have a bigger mark up than 30%

Shows what you know then doesn't it

[Larry J-Croft]

Interesting that the world rally boys weren't all wearing them this year when they were made compulsory the year before !!

I fully agree with all the arguments for them, I want one, but I am fed up with being ripped off just because I race a car.

[dtype38]

Originally Posted by andy97

I am considering buying a HANS device for next season but there appear to be two slightly different versions available:

Hi andy, I'm Facly's team mate and we went through all this last year at the Autosport show. We looked at all the versions available (there were more than two), tried a few on, poked and prodded them and everything. Like you, my objective wasn't to by the cheapest one, but the best one. So... FWIW my impressions were:

Belt retension: The flip up sides ones look good, but they have some definite limitations. First is that you need a HANS compatible harness to use them, ie 2" wide shoulder straps in the area of your shoulders. At the time I had just got a new 3" harness and the edges stick over the flip ups in a very concerning way so I decided not to go for one of them. In retrospect, I'm glad I didn't for a more practical reason. When you get in the car and fish behind your shoulders for your straps, it's hard enough getting them over a flat HANS device. I'm convinced that if I had flip up ones it would make it very difficult indeed (unless you have a pit crew strapping you in of course ) So not a flip up one for me, but then there was more than one sort of flat one. One had a flat rubber section fitted into belt face, the other had a very rough surface molded into it. To the touch the rough surface was quite sharp, like 60 grit sandpaper. I was concerned that over time this would abrade my shoulder straps and possibly cause them to fray. So in the end my personal choice was actually to go for what, on the face of it, looked like the least secure, but IMHO most trouble free version - that flat rubber faced one.

But that's not all there is to consider... What about the padding on the underside? Some come with a simple velcro on pad of negligable thickness and no options. One (I can't remeber which, sorry) come with options of thin foam, thick foam, or "formfit" material, which will (after a few time on) mould itself to the shape of your collar bones. And one other came with a pocketed pad retainer into which you could put different thicknesses of foam of your own choice. Actually the one I went with had the simple thin foam pad, but in hindsight I think I should have gone with one that had optional pads (bit more expensive) as I didn't realise how uncomfortable they could be when you are strapped in tightly. I've actually got round this on mine by putting should strap pads around the "legs) to give a bit more padding.

All of this, of course, relies on you having chosen the correct angle and width in the first place. This, I know from experience, can ONLY be done in your own car. Check with your HANS dealer that you have the option of returning the first one you try for a different angle / width after you try it in your own car. If they don't then find another dealer!

Other things to consider... Who is going to fit the posts in your helmet? I see that some of the catalogues are offering helmets with posts ready-fitted for only and extra £50! Remember a set of posts come with your HANS device as part of the price. Personally, I went with Demon Tweeks, because... not only did they agree to change the device if the one I had was the wrong size/angle, but they also fitted the posts to my exisiting (HANS compatible) helmet for free and provided an certificate of conformity for the fitting. I'm not advertising for DT, just pointing out the sort of deals you can make that will bring down the overall cost and make spending £600+ on the safety of your neck a much less stressful experience.

If you have a hunt round under the "search" facility you'll actually find a number of threads on this topic, covering both fitting, and the pros and cons of using a HANS device. As you may have gathered, I'm on the pro side. But I also think that, for the time being, it should be down to personal choice. Motorsport is expensive enough as it is

[Al Weyman]

Answer me something please on these because if they are made compulsory I may well have to knock it on the head for this reason. Can you put your helmet on once you are in the car when using this device because I am a big lad and have a bit of trouble climbing into the car across the now mandatory doorbars into the now mandatory (?) FIA wrap around racing seat and I don't recon I could get into the thing while wearing a helmet or even if I could with that lump of carbon fibre on my back.

Also why can't they do a cheaper steel version because I don't give a stuff about a few extra ibs in weight?

Finally I thought they were available sub £500 when we discussed this last.

[dtype38]

Al, yes you can put your helmet on last. I do and I find it by far the easiest way. Just get in, get strapped in with your HANS on, put your lid on, attach the teathers to you lid (very easy with a bit of practice), put your gloves on, then just give your shoulder straps a final tug and you're off...

[ss_collins]

does anyone have a link to the figure regarding brain injuries rates in motorsport accidents since the introduction of hans?

[dtype38]

ss_ I believe we went through all of this in the middle of last year: http://tentenths.com/forum/showthrea...61#post1315861. I think the conclusion then was that there are a lot of vested interests involved and it is virtually impossible to get to any actual comparative statistics. If anyone would care to disagree with that and quote some statistics which don't come from a device manufacturer, or a governing body who have introduced compulsion, then I would be just as interested as ss_

This is why I think these devices should be "highly recommended" rather than mandatory. Still gonna wear mine tho'

[Eddy V]

Whatever type of Hans you go for, ask and if possible try first. They are all good, but....
Depends a bit the way you are build. As they come in different angles and sizes, it is all about feeling.

Do not cross belts at the front. FIA allows crossing at the back however.

30% profit, now that would be something!

[Al Weyman]

So why can't they be made from metal?

[Richy_Rich]

A couple of our guys had a bit of a crash a while back and both were given a stern lecture in the medical center for not wearing Hans devices (I don't think anyone in our championship has one). Apparently it was along the lines of, 'you shouldn't be allowed out on the track without one.'

This seemed a bit over-zealous given the lack of evidence on the subject.

[Eddy V]

They do work RR, I've seen it's positive result as a marshal.
The only problem is mainly why they made them so expensive?

And I fear they (FIA, national MSAs, scruts etc.) are going to say: you've had a nasty crash with your brand new only 1 race worn Hans, so please bin it and buy a new one.

I advocate safety, but at what cost? If you are unlucky you may buy a few systems a year and who can afford that, unless you are a pro?

But what price are drivers willing to pay for their wellfare?

[Chris Y]

All of this, of course, relies on you having chosen the correct angle and width in the first place. This, I know from experience, can ONLY be done in your own car. Check with your HANS dealer that you have the option of returning the first one you try for a different angle / width after you try it in your own car.

This is also troubling. What if you're one of the many people who don't own a car, but hire one - what happens when you change cars, or you do a multi-driver race in someone else's car?

This is the problem with HANS for me, it's not just initially expensive, but has the capacity for being EVEN MORE expensive, depending on how you go racing.

In my view, if this ever becomes compulsory, without improvement on the design/fitment, then it will deter an awful lot of racers - see Al's comments above - he won't be the only one that struggles with the device.

[Richy_Rich]

I'm sure they do work Eddy. They stop you having a basal skull fracture in the event of a head on collision IIRC. But I'd like to know how likely an occurance this is, specifically in relatively low speed, non-contact clubbie circuit (i.e. not oval) racing.

On the cost side, they (HANS, at least) also recommend you replace it every five years.