is single seater racing *really* in crisis?

[davyboy]

Originally Posted by bella

it's interesting that the series that are thriving at the moment are the ones that offer something of real monetary value in return for the winner. which is... like the old days.

otherwise, what's the incentive to compete at all?

and they also offer good value for money for all those competing.

British F3 and British F-Renault are examples of how to get it wrong.

BARC Renault and Star Mazda are examples of how to get it right.

[Flyin Ryan]

Too many series and this is just survival of the fittest. If you have a good series that provides its competitors what it wants, you'll be fine going into the future. The ones that don't will just fade away.

"keep career drivers out of BARC Renault"

Disagree with this as well. What these guys do is they provide a nice measuring stick for the young up-and-comers coming up. Plus for those guys they are financially stable and up car counts and competition.

mountainstar: I think what that part of the sport needs to do is rediscover it's roots when you had an easy to understand formula like Formula Ford 1600 and whoever wanted to could build a car to the rules. And it was so popular you could pretty much run just about every weekend somewhere. Everyone knew who the best drivers were because they all had a chance to compete with one another.

That still exists, it's called USAC plus several upon several "outlaw" series running to just about the same rulesets that you can transfer from one to the other with no problem and there's races over large sections of the country almost every weekend plus some mid-week that you could race maybe 80-100 times a year no problem, and it has multiple chassis builders and multiple engine builders. But you hate USAC. Late models and modifieds too which provide the same thing in certain parts in the country. This kind of goes back to the forming consensus on this thread, people go to where the racing provides them the best value for their dollar for what they want to do.

[bella]

Originally Posted by Flyin Ryan

Disagree with this as well. What these guys do is they provide a nice measuring stick for the young up-and-comers coming up. Plus for those guys they are financially stable and up car counts and competition.

i guess the problem with "career drivers" is people throwing very silly amounts of money at it, which then turns something like barc into quite a... "serious" is the wrong word... costly formula should you want to compete at the front.

i'm not sure how you go about stopping that from happening though.

[davyboy]

Originally Posted by bella

i guess the problem with "career drivers" is people throwing very silly amounts of money at it, which then turns something like barc into quite a... "serious" is the wrong word... costly formula should you want to compete at the front.

i'm not sure how you go about stopping that from happening though.

The way to neutralize that is to penalize success through the application of ballast, power restrictions etc... So if you did want to spend yourself to the front, you wouldn't be there very long. I'm honestly not sure that people would want this kind of thing if they had it, but it can be done.

[Moneyseeker]

The new breed of 'career' drivers aren't effected by what happens within single seater series though, they will have funding in place from either family, investors or be on a Red Bull type scheme often to take them through to F1 level. Their managers will simply pick the best series to showcase their protege and buy the best seat available in the best team available.

Unfortunately motorsport has always been, and even more so these days - if you can't afford it, don't do it.

It's a harsh reality but motorsport is one area of sport where talent is not enough - we can all name drivers who bowl up in one series after another, who don't have the talent to be there, but can write the cheque to turn up.

[Flyin Ryan]

Originally Posted by Moneyseeker

The new breed of 'career' drivers aren't effected by what happens within single seater series though, they will have funding in place from either family, investors or be on a Red Bull type scheme often to take them through to F1 level. Their managers will simply pick the best series to showcase their protege and buy the best seat available in the best team available.

I think y'all have a different definition for career drivers than I do. I thought you were talking about guys that just race in lower series for their whole racing life for fun and because they're good at it, but can't go any higher due to lack of finances. I really hate the impression some people have that guys that know they can't get to F1 shouldn't bother and that Formula X is only meant for 17-year-olds with rich daddies.

If you mean "career" drivers as in guys that are there because they have more money than talent, I hate ride buying snots as much as the next guy.

[bella]

i think the meaning we're implying is that it includes anyone in it with a long term goal of being paid to race or end up in f1, and are doing it for that not with the prime motive of having fun. though fair point about the ambiguity.

[GolddustMini]

Originally Posted by tristancliffe

Ban datalogging on FFord and maybe even FRenault. The drivers do need to learn about it, and they can do that at F3 level upwards.

like Bella I completely disagree with you on this one. the problem with saying "ban datalogging" is that if you ban the hardware, you also ban the technique and the skills, so you might unfairly hamper young drivers who are doing something fundamentally wrong in their driving but cant make corrections because the engineers cant highlight it,

you also take the skills away from the young engineers who are moving up the ladder.

and anyway in reality you can pick up a reasonable data logger (aim, R-T etc for a little over a grand) which could potentially save alot of money in broken parts, and running around at the back of the field wasting money blissfully unaware that what your doing in the car is wrong.

I think its probably worth mentioning that we live in a very "electronic" environment, and being able to analyse data and see whats happening is something that drives alot of young drivers and potential technicians into the industry.


i think one of the main sentements of this thread is that there are far too many championships aiming at the same crowd of people and the traditional low cost championships are anything but. it already seems we are going through a "thinning" process and the less appealing championships are going to the wall. (why waste your money thrashing around in Frenault in a brand new car, when you can drive for all intents and purposes a car thats the same, amongst a full grid of slightly older cars for less) and people are realising that and voting with their feet!

[ivanalesi]

I don't think the number of championships is the problem. Right now we have less F3 championships then there were some years ago and the same applies for FR2.0 level. Remember how there were French, Italian, Swiss, German and I think even Swedish FR2.0. Even one year Formula Master had Italian championship and Euro 3000 had Italian championship for many years.
Problem is the $. If they ask for less, naturally there will be more drivers! This is the easiest way to widen your potential market, right now it is Lamborghini Aventador super car or more territory Go down to Porsche territory and you can have several times bigger market size.

Anyways, I have a question for those with many, many years in the sport. How many people do you think were involved in motor racing back in the 70s-80s compared to now? I ask excluding these involved in F1.

[andy97]

I do think that the number of championships is an issue, but maybe this is affecting the step up from national to european level competition where there is definate confusion/ competition for budgets betrween European FR, Pan Europe F3, GP3, GP2, F2, etc; it used to be so much simpler!

However the real issue has to be cost & thats related to complexity. As othesr have said F Ford is now way too expensive and £600K + a year for a Brit F3 seat is astonishing - why would any aspiring young driver pay out this money when he could get on the Ginetta or Porsche championship ladder and hope to get into GTs for far less, or even with the potential to be paid a bit to race alongside a gentleman driver later on.

The single seater world has lost the plot. It needs to be streamlined, have simpler technology that allows car control to be developed early (F Ford back to long life treaded tyres?) and for true talent to be spotted and only when the fittest have survived should they start progressing into aero dominated, sequential gearbox, big budget series

[NaBUru38]

Originally Posted by ffracer

Single seater racing is clearly in trouble, at least in the UK. I’m now involved in the organisation of single seater racing, but I’m also an active competitor and this post is a purely personal one. [...]

I agree with pretty much every word.

Originally Posted by ffracer

I do think one theme, or dimension, does stand out. We do not seem to be able to understand how to manage the tensions between amateur vs professional, team vs individual, simple-car vs complex-car, career vs enjoyment. Today the most often proposed solution is to polarise the sport along these axis and treat the resulting parts separately. So it appears that currently the “influential” people in the sport seem to believe both the problems and the solutions are to be found only within the “top-level” categories of single seater racing.

I think they are wrong.

Well, there's reason for the polarisation. IndyCar needs the Road to Indy ladder. They are trying to build a ladder for the career-minded (young drivers who want to become professional). So they created USF2000, because F2000CS didn't adapt to their needs.

IndyCar wants each step to develop the driver as a whole. Drivers must learn to driver faster and faster cars, eventual more and more complex cars, and learn to drive longer races. They must attract major sponsors. They must learn to relate with team owners, engineers and mechanics. They want each category to showcase drivers.

In addtion, IndyCar can't spend insane amounts of money to fund the ladder. They must attract major sponsors too. The easiesr is car and autoparts manufacturers. Manufacturers usually want to show cutting-edge tecnology. That's why we'll see direct injection and tubochargers in the long term, like it happened with the FFord Ecoboost.

This can be expensive, so either they find ways to decrease costs or they hush poorer drivers away. Also, some amateur drivers (drivers who enjoy racing for pleasure) will want to build their cars with their own hands. meanwhile, IndyCar and other development series will want spec cars to level the field and make faster drivers win, not faster cars. That's another divide between amateurs and professional hopefuls.

There's way to bridge between them. If cars are cheap enough, many amateurs will gladly race against career-minded racers. Or the car rules can be made clear enough so drivers-builders won't have a chance to outperform drivers-renters by building faster cars.

[NaBUru38]

Originally Posted by Moneyseeker

Big engined single seater series have not faired well in the UK. Think back to the old British F3000 days.

I doubt there would be any appetite for such a series again.

There's only two promoters who could revive it: TOCA and SRO. If anyone else does it, they won't attract big names, teams and sponsors.

[bella]

i don't think sro attracts any big names to be honest. particularly not in the uk.

[NaBUru38]

But they could if they tried. I don't think they are trying with the British GT.

[Go_For_Pole]

I think what is mainly in crisis is elite British single seater series, Europe is doing ok considering the financial climate. In my opinion the reason British series are suffering is only because they vainly try to compete with their European equivelants. The reality is that they can not and they should not if they want to survive. In the past I have explained that for EU residents a FR Euroseries budget is by definition whatever the VAT is in UK cheaper than a FR-UK budget. Even if circuit quality and promotional package were the same (and they are obviously not), difference in money is way too significant. Similar for BF3, this obsession with staying within FIA rules is killing it. Formula Ford is another obsession, with tradition this time, which unlikely to even attrack a European karting star.

But that doesn't mean British single seaters series don't have a purpose, far from it. Judging by BARC grids all it takes is to go down in spec (and down in price) and of course the grid will fill up. This is Britain we are talking about, with so many kids in karting wanting to move up. Just do what Germans did with their national F3 series and this grid will fill up too. Go with TOCA (yes, even as support) to have TV, do away with the crazy engines and freeze the car spec to standard out of Dallara factory 312s. Also do away with Fords and either promote Intersteps or do a FFSA Formula Academy like series. Something cheap and relevant for the next step (BARC).

[barnettracing]

Originally Posted by Go_For_Pole

Formula Ford is another obsession, with tradition this time, which unlikely to even attrack a European karting star.

Actually, it's completely the other way round with Formula Ford. It has stuck to it's tradition. Instead, Ford have said that they want the engine regulations to follow their contemporary road car line up. This means an expensive change every 4-5 years. This could be okay, except they don't even bother using Formula Ford in their public marketing. Therefore the engine in the back is completely irrelevant. They could put a 1600cc 'Kent' engine in the back and just make us call it an Ecoboost; that'd increase the grids...

[EastonNeston]

We cannot forget what we have learned about safety, construction, data analysis and aerodynamics. some people here have to accept professional single seater racing will never go back to the days of one man and a trailer. Have you been to a kart meeting recently? even at 'club' level there are big awnings and transporters, with the teams using full data logging systems. I can think of very few recent examples, in any of the sports I follow, where someone has gone on to reach the top level of the sport by not following the 'accepted route' through the levels of the sport. In both Rugby & Cricket most of the people playing at the county championship or aviva Premiership level have come through the clubs development program from a young age, not from the recreational levels of the game.

Every sport is making use of better coaching, preparation and performance analysis tools to raise performance, with sports teams having a support team of assistant coaches, performance analysts and medical staff.

I very much doubt if either TOCA or SRO have the desire or ability to properly promote single seater racing in the UK. TOCA exist for one purpose, to promote the BTCC, nothing else, they have no interest in any other series, and would actively work against any series that would be more attractive. also the crowd at BTCC meetings is very different in demographics and interest to the audience for F3.

As for SRO, I'd think their relationship with F3 and FRUK teams has been damaged irretrievably. Again, they have shown no genuine interest in making the single seater series they are, supposed to be, promoting attractive for either the teams or the public.

Finally, any company or individual, unless they are the very rare pure philanthropic person, only invests money in the sport because there perceived a marketing benefit. Over time the effectiveness of a sponsorship for a brand declines to a point where the return on investment is zero.

[HaydenFan]

Originally Posted by EastonNeston

We cannot forget what we have learned about safety, construction, data analysis and aerodynamics. some people here have to accept professional single seater racing will never go back to the days of one man and a trailer. Have you been to a kart meeting recently? even at 'club' level there are big awnings and transporters, with the teams using full data logging systems. I can think of very few recent examples, in any of the sports I follow, where someone has gone on to reach the top level of the sport by not following the 'accepted route' through the levels of the sport. In both Rugby & Cricket most of the people playing at the county championship or aviva Premiership level have come through the clubs development program from a young age, not from the recreational levels of the game.

Every sport is making use of better coaching, preparation and performance analysis tools to raise performance, with sports teams having a support team of assistant coaches, performance analysts and medical staff.

Finally, any company or individual, unless they are the very rare pure philanthropic person, only invests money in the sport because there perceived a marketing benefit. Over time the effectiveness of a sponsorship for a brand declines to a point where the return on investment is zero.

Look at FFUK? Charles Anti is a trailer and truck guy. Not going challenge for the title running an older car in the Duratec class, but is running out of a storage unit if I'm not mistaken.

Yes, racing is like all other sports. I think if you are not 10 or 12 and racing at the front of you karting class (and by class, I mean the highest possible for your age, at world level or at least the highest of your nation) sponsors and driver development programs will pass you by. Hamilton is an example. Lance Stroll was 11 when signed by Ferrari.

The last part is 100% true. But at the same time, I feel that for some sponsors it's the love of the sport that keeps them involved. Red Bull never really needed F1 to market themselves, but chose to, and I think they'll stay for a long time no matter the competitive level they present.

[Flavio Galtieri]

I don't want to keep banging on about this as I've aired my views on the F2 thread, but if you can race in F2 (and potentially win an F1 test) at the age of 15 after just one season of Formula Pilota in China what is the point of all these junior series anyway?

If you can bypass all the talent lower down the order by choosing to fly half way around the world to race in, let's face it, hardly a competitive junior series and then return to Europe still a child to race in a 500bhp FIA approved F1 feeder series why wouldn't you?

Before any rationalisation of the "ladder" takes place there must be reform of the licensing system. There must be race licenses issued based on experience and achievement over bank account balances.

At the moment, if you are wealthy, the ladder appears to be Karts, some junior series that is insignificant, then F2 at 15 or F3 at 16.

That is just ridiculous and brings the sport into disrepute imho

[JohnMiller]

Originally Posted by Flavio Galtieri

If you can bypass all the talent lower down the order by choosing to fly half way around the world to race in, let's face it, hardly a competitive junior series and then return to Europe still a child to race in a 500bhp FIA approved F1 feeder series why wouldn't you?

Maybe because you accept that you need to learn and want to walk before you can run, you want and need to get 10,000 km+ seat-time in a season, rather than closer to 2,000 km, you want to work with quality engineers and driver coaches as you realise the long-term career value in that?

[Flavio Galtieri]

Originally Posted by JohnMiller

Maybe because you accept that you need to learn and want to walk before you can run, you want and need to get 10,000 km+ seat-time in a season, rather than closer to 2,000 km, you want to work with quality engineers and driver coaches as you realise the long-term career value in that?

Yes precisely.

But if one's backers (whether parents or third parties) are intent on maximising their opportunity for an early return on investment, whether financial, status, publicity or whatever then a child should be protected by that within the licensing system.

What you say makes perfect sense, at the moment there is no requirement, apparently, to follow such a route. Hence single seater series may well have further crises until there is a clear direction and leadership from the FiIA or MSA?

[tristancliffe]

Originally Posted by FFfan

I presume you are referring to the likes of my son Scott?

No, I wasn't really. I didn't want to give you an opportunity to mention his lack of budget or record breaking season AGAIN... Change the record or just get on with life.


As for my proposal to ban datalogging, there are some good arguments for keeping it. I do worry that being able to 'engineer' the mistakes out of a driver will tend to mask the ones that are genuinely talented. Nothing worse than propelling a driver up the ranks only to realise that, deep down, he's lacking in the natural talent needed at the top. Maybe the ban should be on the complexity of the datalogging. Brake, throttle and steering and damper pots (limited to 100Hz so that the drivers learn to FEEL the dampers rather than relying on 1kHz+ analysis of the damper curves), engine stuff (oil pressure etc etc) and the built in accelerometer and GPS data should perhaps be enough. Ban the laser ride height sensors, tyre temperature sensors, load cells etc etc.

Oh, and make it mandatory for all 'ladder' championships to carry onboard cameras AND upload them to a dedicated motorsport website that's a bit like YouTube. But that's just for fun

[FFfan]

Originally Posted by tristancliffe

No, I wasn't really. I didn't want to give you an opportunity to mention his lack of budget or record breaking season AGAIN... Change the record or just get on with life.


As for my proposal to ban datalogging, there are some good arguments for keeping it. I do worry that being able to 'engineer' the mistakes out of a driver will tend to mask the ones that are genuinely talented. Nothing worse than propelling a driver up the ranks only to realise that, deep down, he's lacking in the natural talent needed at the top. Maybe the ban should be on the complexity of the datalogging. Brake, throttle and steering and damper pots (limited to 100Hz so that the drivers learn to FEEL the dampers rather than relying on 1kHz+ analysis of the damper curves), engine stuff (oil pressure etc etc) and the built in accelerometer and GPS data should perhaps be enough. Ban the laser ride height sensors, tyre temperature sensors, load cells etc etc.

Oh, and make it mandatory for all 'ladder' championships to carry onboard cameras AND upload them to a dedicated motorsport website that's a bit like YouTube. But that's just for fun

From somebody that has to remind everybody in every single post, via his foot note, that he is the Monopsoto Racing Club Champion I think your unnecessary opening attack is churlish to say the least. If anyone is displaying signs of a chip on one’s shoulder I would suggest your stance betrays a classic case.
Technology is part of motorsport now as it is everyday life. It’s called progress. Young drivers are brought up with it from a very age. Data logging is used widely in cadet karting with drivers as young as 8 and they get used to understanding and working with it from an early age. I cannot understand your argument about engineering mistakes out of a driver. Why is this a bad thing & how is it any different from good driver coaching on any level whether that be a dad & lad karting team or F1 drivers who still rely on renowned coaches like Rob Wilson etc?
Data logging isn’t significantly adding costs either. The hardware and software are relatively cheap and I would even argue if installed and operated successfully will lead to a reduced testing requirement.
Bottom line is you cannot engineer talent. A driver is either born with it or not. Those that aren’t as naturally blessed can work extremely hard and be just as successful (Graham Hill springs to mind).
You cannot fight against modernisation in sport either. If you want back to basics motor racing the way it used to be then race Historics. A fantastic place to race IMO and spectacular machinery without a doubt and still very much has its place (the Silverstone Classic is without doubt one of the best events on the calendar) but very obviously of its time. A modern Formula Ford car will probably lap most circuits quicker than an F1 car from the early 60’s (have a look at Oulton Park lap times & remember there are now two chicanes there that weren’t there in the 60’s).
Understanding and learning how to use all the tools available to you are what makes a good driver and the younger drivers today are used to it. If they have something at their disposal in karting how would it enhance their development to then withdraw it when they make the transition to cars?
The points Flavio make are far more relevant. A licencing system based on results and achievements in a sanctioned championship should be the criteria for moving up the ladder far more than daddy opening his wallet. To be a sanctioned championship a decent prize should be made available for winning it to create a proper recognised ladder system and allow drivers to progress up the ranks.

[Flavio Galtieri]

Originally Posted by tristancliffe

As for my proposal to ban datalogging

Shall we ban simulators too?

Let's face it, most kids of 8 or certainly 10 years are pretty well versed with setting up their car with the aid of datalogging on an xbox, PC sim or similar.

And it's free once you have the kit!

Shame the rest of the sport isn't

[tristancliffe]

I have signatures turned off, so I don't see it anyway! Maybe you should add "Dad of best driver ever but we've run out of money and will tell you both at every opportunity" to your signature??

Anyway, whilst datalogging is 'cheap', you quickly get into the realms of having a man employed solely to look at it. He'll want some pay, which will be paid for by the driver. So you've suddenly added, let's say' £20k to the budget per year. For what purpose? So that the drivers that you can't engineer talent on can go faster? But you can't engineer talent... So just let them drive?

I would have to assume that Scott will not be using datalogging this year to save some cash? And one set of slicks for the whole year?