Will V8Supercars Still Be Around In 5 Years? (Merged)

[GTRMagic]

Article Here

It is curious why there are many articles around knocking the V 8SC series, and very few detailing the huge jourmey the category has come on.

[rich07]

Originally Posted by GTRMagic

Article Here



It is curious why there are many articles around knocking the V 8SC series, and very few detailing the huge jourmey the category has come on.

It's the Australian way. Instead of celebrating ones success, we cross our fingers and wish for their downfall. Tall poppy and all that.

[Trevor]

If you hunt around in here I suggested (with a picture) that the V8's would be gone by 2018, not much longer to wait, and it is looking increasingly like the V8 engine will go the way of the dodo

[Trevor]

ahh, yes, after a hunt around photobucket I found it

[bluesport]

The category can survive if they move away from technical parity.

[GTRMagic]

Its impossible to think that there will be no premier category of motorsport in this country. There always is just as there always was. It will evolve for sure. With existing players. With new players. With all kinds of things the same. And different.

But its not dead, not by a long stretch.

The comparison to DTM is laughable. 3 factories spending upwards of what $100m each in whatever currency you choose to play in, competing against each other...

For that kind of budget, the whole V8SC field could operate a new car at every round and still have money left over for palm trees.

[Henry]

Originally Posted by GTRMagic

Its impossible to think that there will be no premier category of motorsport in this country. There always is just as there always was. It will evolve for sure. With existing players. With new players. With all kinds of things the same. And different.

But its not dead, not by a long stretch.

The comparison to DTM is laughable. 3 factories spending upwards of what $100m each in whatever currency you choose to play in, competing against each other...

For that kind of budget, the whole V8SC field could operate a new car at every round and still have money left over for palm trees.

All well and good to speak of what might be possible here with somebody else's budget, but the simple fact is that there aren't too many corporate types who was willing to jump on and fund the type of mindless self-indulgence we already possess here.

People got all excited today because Erebus changed the font on one of the cars, folk were speculating on who's sponsoring the defacto works Volvo team next year seeing how their sponsor's due to go missing, and they couldn't get anyone to make anything more than a $4 eBay bid on three of the once-coveted REC's…

and between their greed, and that of some of the folk who have been trying to get somebody to buy them out of the sport, they've waved off virtually any prospective newcomers who were set to bring anything of worth to the category.

If they want competitors, they need to make the sport MORE accessible. The times of haven people banging down the door to play are GORN. There's no real perceived value in the category - nobody gets any benefit from having them over for a skid around the yard, except the participant teams and associated camp followers.

[one five five]

The championship will continue as it always has since 1960.

Whether the V8-only formula continues only time will tell.

Who thought in 1993 that the V8 only formula would still be going now?

Originally Posted by bluesport

The category can survive if they move away from technical parity.

Any move in the direction i think your suggesting (individual team/driver parity) would only hasten the demise of the series, not extend any life of it.

[GTRMagic]

Originally Posted by Henry

All well and good to speak of what might be possible here with somebody else's budget, but the simple fact is that there aren't too many corporate types who was willing to jump on and fund the type of mindless self-indulgence we already possess here.

People got all excited today because Erebus changed the font on one of the cars, folk were speculating on who's sponsoring the defacto works Volvo team next year seeing how their sponsor's due to go missing, and they couldn't get anyone to make anything more than a $4 eBay bid on three of the once-coveted REC's…

and between their greed, and that of some of the folk who have been trying to get somebody to buy them out of the sport, they've waved off virtually any prospective newcomers who were set to bring anything of worth to the category.

If they want competitors, they need to make the sport MORE accessible. The times of haven people banging down the door to play are GORN. There's no real perceived value in the category - nobody gets any benefit from having them over for a skid around the yard, except the participant teams and associated camp followers.

So, other than smashing the existing business model, what is your offered alternative?

[Umai Naa]

Should we re-adopt a 'Level 2' REC, at a reduced value, for those willing to undertake a part time campaign, at a reduced price? Perhaps a minimum and maximum level of participation?

Say, there was a pool of maybe 6 Level 2 RECs, it may get the field back the "ideal" grid of 28 cars at most events. Perhaps more at the big races?

Could be a better way of some DVS teams finding that middle ground between a DVS campaign and a full-on V8SC tilt.

[Backagain]

Most likely, it would seem Mr. Warburton has been employed to ensure the alienation of fans and destruction of a popular formula.

[GTRMagic]

Originally Posted by Umai Naa

Should we re-adopt a 'Level 2' REC, at a reduced value, for those willing to undertake a part time campaign, at a reduced price? Perhaps a minimum and maximum level of participation?

Say, there was a pool of maybe 6 Level 2 RECs, it may get the field back the "ideal" grid of 28 cars at most events. Perhaps more at the big races?

Could be a better way of some DVS teams finding that middle ground between a DVS campaign and a full-on V8SC tilt.

The challenge to that plan is that the car specs are not consistent between the 2 series.. and in the biggest race in the country, the current DVS teams dont seem to be able to put even a single entry together...

[one five five]

Originally Posted by Umai Naa

Should we re-adopt a 'Level 2' REC, at a reduced value, for those willing to undertake a part time campaign, at a reduced price? Perhaps a minimum and maximum level of participation?

Say, there was a pool of maybe 6 Level 2 RECs, it may get the field back the "ideal" grid of 28 cars at most events. Perhaps more at the big races?

Could be a better way of some DVS teams finding that middle ground between a DVS campaign and a full-on V8SC tilt.

Thats getting onto the right track i think.

V8Supercars need to get away from being so "exclusive" and start being more "inclusive" to people wanting to enter

These RECs have made the whole show a closed shop for years, it worked ten years ago, but they are still using the same business plan in a completely different world it seems like....

Is there any actual plan on how to attract more REC buyers, or are they just hoping (assuming) it will turn around thanks to a wizz-bang TV deal that more than half of Australia can't watch?

[GTRMagic]

Originally Posted by one five five

V8Supercars need to get away from being so "exclusive" and start being more "inclusive" to people wanting to enter

Where exactly is the queue of potential entrants who are unable to join the show? Dragon?

[Henry]

Originally Posted by GTRMagic

So, other than smashing the existing business model, what is your offered alternative?

Is smashing the existing business model such a taboo? I would've thought it silly to be so emotionally attached to a sinking ship that one was prepared to go down with it rather than hack a hole in the side to escape.

I've said for years that the "exclusive" V8SC philosophy was counter-productive and short-sighted.

They perverted the original purposes of the REC system, and instead of using it to guarantee a minimum number of starters, they've used it to drive up their stocks (temporarily). That they couldn't get anybody to beat a $4 eBay bid on their spare REC's should have really set alarm bells ringing - their glass castle's not worth what they reckon it is, the Emperor's starkers and in danger of frostbite, and nobody's saying nuthin'.

The silhouette formula's not a bad idea, but it's too expensive. I'd reckon go back to a production-based formula: whatever model you have, whatever motor it's got. Make it production saloons, minimum global annual production figure so that they've gotta go for the Cruze or Fusion rather than trying to argue their way into something ridiculous like a McLaren. Use the Jack Hinxman Bathurst yardstick - get a 6'4" retired copper, and if he can't sit in the back of it, it's out.… and then make it about power to weight. Control ECU, rev limit, and then put 'em on the portable dyno after qualifying and then the top 5 post-race… sell tickets to it. You can spend billions on your engine development and get 40 million hp, and we'll recognise your excellence with a nice lead trophy. You've then not only got an avenue to INCLUDE just about anything on the market, but you have the option of breaking it into classes by engine capacity if you want to, for the spectacle.

Run a couple of different series.

Have a national touring car championship. Have secondary series - run it at alternate tracks, like Wakefield, or Morgan Park, Mallala, whatever. Set the ATCC up like the WTCC model - pay the lot in order to pay for points, but show up for all the rounds. That'll get the Big Teams in, for the prestige of the Ancient Title, then let the others pay for a start in the individual rounds, but aren't eligible for points. But at least the hometown heroes can play.

What's that you say? Letting a couple of weekend warriors out with the stars? An accident waiting to happen? The "stars" might learn to do a race without bouncing off everything in sight, if they've got to apply a bit of discretion and tact. I reckon we might get a relevant and accessible touring car formula going… it might even be cheaper! It might offer some variety!

[one five five]

Originally Posted by GTRMagic

Where exactly is the queue of potential entrants who are unable to join the show? Dragon?

If you didn't need to stump up a motza to buy an REC before even thinking of getting car together, i'm sure there would be a big queue looking to enter.

Perhaps couple that with some sort of 'allowance' that might let potential entrants be allowed to put together a program for a season where they were only compelled to run at say Adelaide, Townsville, Sandown, Bathurst, Gold Coast and Sydney?

Make it look like they actually want people to enter, rather than just telling people to 'tender' for a spot on our grid under our terms and bring your sack of $$ with you.

[Umai Naa]

Originally Posted by GTRMagic

The challenge to that plan is that the car specs are not consistent between the 2 series.. and in the biggest race in the country, the current DVS teams dont seem to be able to put even a single entry together...

Nah, not suggesting DVS teams use the previous Blueprint chassis. There's probably 4 or 5 COTF chassis sitting in workshops, not in active duty (ride cars included).

[GTRMagic]

The point you are likely missing is that V8SC doesnt set the price of the REC, the existing REC holders do.

If they have an asset in their books at $1.5 million, however it got there, there is little chance they will be thrilled with selling that asset for much less than that. Its historical. And hysterical. Kinda.

I still come back to it.. there is opportunity at a number of rounds of the series to bring on a wild card entry with the love and blessing of V8SC, yet nobody does it.

Nobody.

Where is the queue... teams like Sonic dont seem to be looking to step up, or Matt White or Eggleston... or other squads that have been around for a while. Arguably the only one to have done it in recent times was PCR...

Is the desire gone? Is it more lucrative to run as customers than to lead the way and run your own show? Perhaps. Perhaps not.

As excited as some seem to get about GT3, and how that class is 'better' that V8SC... if there were no patrons in that space, owning cars, paying to run them, almost all on a non-commercial basis... the GT series wouldnt be here either!

[Umai Naa]

I think most of us are on the same page here, with regards to the concept of some sort of Level 2 REC. I also think that most will agree that 25 cars, (even less at SMP after a few shunts, at a track that 10-15 years ago attracted close to 50 entries at one point), is not enough of a spectacle. Does offering a Level 2 REC dilute any other aspect of the catagory, besides the accessability to join?

V8SC already offers 'Wild Card' opportunities at their 'showcase' events, but besides the occasional Bathurst campaign, this hasn't been utilised as it's intended to. I wonder what, if anything, is stopping someone entering an extra car, besides having to come up with the staff, money and parts cache? Perhaps the entry has to be media-friendly?

[GTRMagic]

The challenge of a wildcard entry, besides sourcing a car & the bits required to keep it on the road, is the sheer volume of dollars required to secure an eligible vehicle. They are still quite scarce, especially compared to the Project Blueprint days.

Of interest most recently is that there is noise around suggesting that the Dunlop Series teams may be able to run the new CotF as soon as 2015... its apparently an idea kicking around V8SA HQ, with prompting from the Dunlop series alumni most likely, to try and get chassis that they might just be able to run in a wildcard position.

Where this is interesting is that it may unlock a number of teams' equipment into the Dunlop series, allowing the repower with brand new gear, and potentially to take the time to reevaluate brand choice as well.

The answer, to me anyway, isnt to build another class of cars. They do that in other markets, and the thinly spread moneytree in that space inevitably eventually breaks, and you end up with a load of people with fresh cars they cant actually race anywhere.

[Marcos WTF]

Originally Posted by Henry

Is smashing the existing business model such a taboo? I would've thought it silly to be so emotionally attached to a sinking ship that one was prepared to go down with it rather than hack a hole in the side to escape.

I've said for years that the "exclusive" V8SC philosophy was counter-productive and short-sighted.

They perverted the original purposes of the REC system, and instead of using it to guarantee a minimum number of starters, they've used it to drive up their stocks (temporarily). That they couldn't get anybody to beat a $4 eBay bid on their spare REC's should have really set alarm bells ringing - their glass castle's not worth what they reckon it is, the Emperor's starkers and in danger of frostbite, and nobody's saying nuthin'.

The silhouette formula's not a bad idea, but it's too expensive. I'd reckon go back to a production-based formula: whatever model you have, whatever motor it's got. Make it production saloons, minimum global annual production figure so that they've gotta go for the Cruze or Fusion rather than trying to argue their way into something ridiculous like a McLaren. Use the Jack Hinxman Bathurst yardstick - get a 6'4" retired copper, and if he can't sit in the back of it, it's out.… and then make it about power to weight. Control ECU, rev limit, and then put 'em on the portable dyno after qualifying and then the top 5 post-race… sell tickets to it. You can spend billions on your engine development and get 40 million hp, and we'll recognise your excellence with a nice lead trophy. You've then not only got an avenue to INCLUDE just about anything on the market, but you have the option of breaking it into classes by engine capacity if you want to, for the spectacle.

Run a couple of different series.

Have a national touring car championship. Have secondary series - run it at alternate tracks, like Wakefield, or Morgan Park, Mallala, whatever. Set the ATCC up like the WTCC model - pay the lot in order to pay for points, but show up for all the rounds. That'll get the Big Teams in, for the prestige of the Ancient Title, then let the others pay for a start in the individual rounds, but aren't eligible for points. But at least the hometown heroes can play.

What's that you say? Letting a couple of weekend warriors out with the stars? An accident waiting to happen? The "stars" might learn to do a race without bouncing off everything in sight, if they've got to apply a bit of discretion and tact. I reckon we might get a relevant and accessible touring car formula going… it might even be cheaper! It might offer some variety!

You make some damn good points there. I'd like to see a return to a more production based series. And they were quite prepared to smash existing business models when
Gp C was killed off (Boo) and Gp A too (Yay)

I wonder about the medium term & beyond. The fields are getting smaller, the 2015 TV betrayal has alienated many, and the cars are too far removed from their production
base.

[Henry]

Originally Posted by GTRMagic

The point you are likely missing is that V8SC doesnt set the price of the REC, the existing REC holders do.

If they have an asset in their books at $1.5 million, however it got there, there is little chance they will be thrilled with selling that asset for much less than that. Its historical. And hysterical. Kinda.

I still come back to it.. there is opportunity at a number of rounds of the series to bring on a wild card entry with the love and blessing of V8SC, yet nobody does it.

Nobody.

Where is the queue... teams like Sonic dont seem to be looking to step up, or Matt White or Eggleston... or other squads that have been around for a while. Arguably the only one to have done it in recent times was PCR...

Is the desire gone? Is it more lucrative to run as customers than to lead the way and run your own show? Perhaps. Perhaps not.

As excited as some seem to get about GT3, and how that class is 'better' that V8SC... if there were no patrons in that space, owning cars, paying to run them, almost all on a non-commercial basis... the GT series wouldnt be here either!

Given that prospective wildcards don't have the COTF cars, or the budget to fettle and repair them, it'd not really all that likely that there will be a queue to play.

GT3's still pretty expensive, but given that they're not exactly running around in Kias or Cruzes purchased during the EOFYS's, it's not surprising…

The beauty of what came before COTF, before the V8SC regime, was that aspiring participants could build themselves a compliant vehicle out of something off the used car lot. Sure, most of the big teams were using bodies-in-white that were fettled specially, with deleted deadener and bracketing, and extra stitching, but cars like the first Johnson XD, and most of the Group A Skylines, and Lord knows however many others, were built from second-hand road cars. KB's Camaro was bought through a car dealer (with dealer-fitted optional rear discs hehehe).

The exclusivity that V8SC's craved and cultivated was all well and good for their stocks while people had the desire and the backing to get involved, but there are more than a couple of the current participants who struggle to scrape together the backing to STAY involved, let alone anybody new trying to get in. And the category has had a history of doing its best to discourage newbies from coming in anyway - remember how welcome Thexton was made? It's too cliquey, too pricey, too hubcap-like (shiny-ish on top, **** underneath etc).

[ford71]

Originally Posted by Trevor

If you hunt around in here I suggested (with a picture) that the V8's would be gone by 2018, not much longer to wait, and it is looking increasingly like the V8 engine will go the way of the dodo

Originally Posted by Trevor

ahh, yes, after a hunt around photobucket I found it

I always imagined you were a little older

[mikuni]

Originally Posted by Henry

The beauty of what came before COTF, before the V8SC regime, was that aspiring participants could build themselves a compliant vehicle out of something off the used car lot.

The way COTF was sold to us, I seem to remember, is that it was apparently going to make this process easier than ever. I thought anybody could go to Pace and pick up a blank tube frame chassis. They could then go to an engine supplier of their choice and grab a supply of motors. I understand many of the drivetrain and suspension components and standardised, so that shouldn't be a big issue? And then hopefully with manufacturer backing some body panels can be supplied and fitted.

It all sounds so easy, but as we have seen from the teams coming in with new manufacturers, it is far from easy.


Overall I actually think COTF has been a success. I only came back to V8SC because of it. I had lost interest with watching 2 cars race, I could barely even tell them apart after project blueprint and they looked so similar. Now I can easily tell the cars apart. I can even hear a difference between the engines! I think that is fantastic. The racing is close too, and I really don't have an issue with 25 cars on the grid.

I would like to see a few more wild cards, and see a few back yard privateers racing at the events, but this really doesn't make or break it for me. I'm surprised to see so many people predicting the demise of the category. If I didn't visit ten-tenths I would think it is currently very strong, just from what I see on TV.

[Henry]

Originally Posted by mikuni

The way COTF was sold to us, I seem to remember, is that it was apparently going to make this process easier than ever.

Sounds like a pretty slick sales pitch, which - as does happen with many slick sales pitches - doesn't quite bear a resemblance to the realities of the category.

I thought anybody could go to Pace and pick up a blank tube frame chassis.

Was I mistaken in thinking that the governing body has a limit on new chassis, and disposal of old chassis? In any case, here's a big spend.

They could then go to an engine supplier of their choice and grab a supply of motors.

Ah, but which one? And what will you be getting? And what will it cost?

I understand many of the drivetrain and suspension components and standardised, so that shouldn't be a big issue?

much of that was standardised previously… but the new transaxle won't be cheap, and, it would seem, it's a bit finicky too.

And then hopefully with manufacturer backing some body panels can be supplied and fitted.

Here's the big IF, and the determining factor in the success of a team or category - Manufacturer Support. It's a little disquieting that the current category is basically a sports sedan class (as opposed to the "real" sports sedan class, which had no manufacturer support, but still seems to be around), but it's restricted by manufacturer participation. While Allan Moffat said 35 years ago, that it's no use racing touring cars without manufacturer support, it's another thing to have an entire category entirely dependent on the support of the manufacturers. Hence my advocation of a production-car basis and power/weight regulation - all the manufacturer really has to do is build cars. And if they want to support a team, good luck to them!

It all sounds so easy, but as we have seen from the teams coming in with new manufacturers, it is far from easy.

Too right. And it'll be harder to retain the manufacturers in the longer term unless they see themselves with a chance of being competitive. Of the three newbies, only Volvo have been consistently potent.

I agree that it's been better this season than for many in the recent past. But given the scenario where people can't find anybody to buy them out of the category when they've had enough, it points to the possibility that not only will there be teams leaving, but eventually leaving broke. Not a good thing.