TONY C: Give it another tug son..

[V8 Superdave]

But it's a bit rough when AVESCO put it all back onto the curcuit owners to spend (in most cases) in excess of at least a million dollars, and only threaten to NOT turn up if it's not done.... do any circuits have long-term contracts with AVESCO to at least allow them to have a chance to recoup the cost of jumping through all the hoops to put on the V8s?

I understand the sentiment of "you want us, you pay", and that's great for F1, because the whole city/state defrays the costs to a degree. Here, wer'e talking approximately similar numbers for individual circuits to come up with. Surely it can't be that far fetched to ask AVESCO to contribute in some way to the tracks and facilities they use?

I'm sure the AFL & NRL put money back into venues & facilities... that's the way i'd expect this to work as well.

[Conrod Kieron]

Originally posted by V8 Superdave
And what would be wrong with that, Kieron?

AVESCO chips in to help pay for upgrades, they take a share of the profit from ALL meetings held at the track.... i don't see a downside, UNLESS the prices to use the circuit skyrocket as a result of an AVESCO cash injection.

This way, Cochrane gets the facilities he wants, and the circuits don't have to go nearly broke tring to bend over backwards to please AVESCO, and being seen by some of their regular/local users as pandering to the V8s at the expense of everyone else.

Of course, this assumes that Cochrane would allow other classes to use "his" tracks at a reasonable cost.

Nothing wrong with it Dave. But the economics have to work for AVESCO of course.

Out of interest, who has payed for what upgrades at the various circuits that have been asked to lift there standards by TC?

Wanneroo - wasn't it VB who chipped in?
Bathurst - local council?
Others (i'm not sure who else)

[spook]

TC/AVESCO has an opportunity to put money into a circuit if he/they want.

There is 25% of shares in the company that manages Queensland Raceway currently "For Sale".

Rumoured price is around $1.5M for the 25%.

Any takers out there?

[Morris 1100]

Upgrades? WTF! You have to be kidding!
What gets upgraded? The VIP suites!
Who gets the advantage of the upgrades? The VIPS!
Do the tracks ever get improved (improved, not changed) No!
Do the fans ever get anything out of the upgrades? No!

[aj_308]

how many more stands were at adelaide? they made improvements to the track (turn 8) well.. tried to anyway..

[Conrod Kieron]

I've been going to the Wanneroo circuit since 1977 and can tell you now that its been vastly improved in the last few years as a direct result of V8SC's, and ALL to the benefit of the spectators and competitors.

[pete55]

We have some people that really have no idea here. AVESCO looks after V8 Supercars. They do nothing for any other forms of sport (all they do is suck all of the blood out of other categories) and they do nothing for permanent circuits. I wonder where the next lot of V8 Supercar drivers will learn their race craft if all of the permanent circuits disappear.

[Robert Ryan]

pete55 I have heard the same sort of arguement before. What is AVESCO CAMS?. No they are there to look after V8Supercars. The only way they "suckdry" other catergories is by being successful. Sponosors love a catergory that is promoted well and is popular. Talking to competitors in other forms of motorsport, you get the distinct impression, that a lot of that lack of success lies in poor management(Speedway being a classic case)

[racer69]

Originally posted by White Knight
The F1 circus don't pay for upgrades to Albert Park. If they were not happy they would simply go elsewhere.

Maybe not Albert Park, but Bernie chipped in for Silverstone.

[Conrod Kieron]

Hmm, how many rounds of the V8's do we have now compared to pre AVESCO?
How many V8sc rounds are there at permenant circuits compared to pre AVESCO?

Then we have the Konica series running at permenant circuits.

I'd say overall, AVESCO has increased the amount of races at permenant circuits and with the Konicas, introduced a stepping stone for new younger drivers to enter the main game. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if the current crop of V8SC drivers are the youngest group in Aussie touring car history.

[V8 Superdave]

Isn't there something inherently wrong with a system where the promoter can simply demand (in some cases) outrageous amounts of money be spent to upgrade specific facilities at various circuits, just to continue to keep coming back?

This induces circuits to go all out to retain the V8s, and the local club people tend to be ignored to a degree, in that they're simply told they'll have to live with whatever disruptions to their programs in order for the V8SC to get what they want. Then the prices go up, and we as fans complain that all the upgrades seem to be for the VIPs (i take your point Kieron about Barbagallo... seen no track changes, but yes there ARE new pits, and a shyteload of corporate area, and one new entrance for Novus corner).

Then what happens if the circuit fails to comply? They lose the round (point: bet it wouldn't EVER happen at EC), the fans miss out, and TC gets an overseas street race, which makes AVESCO more money still.

He cares nothing for the RACING, or the fans of this sport, only for ways to extract absolute maximum cash.... what happens when he sees the bubble has burst, and moves on? Has anyone thought that far ahead? He buggers off, with an armoured car full of money, to rape his next cash cow, and the series we (mostly) love is left to wither, or flail about on it's own (because you can bet he'll tie up the naming rights, it'll have to be called something else).

My point is that other governing bodies for sports actively assist venues with this sort of thing, and Cochrane seems to think it's an affront to dare to request AVESCO do the same thing. He seems to think it's perfectly legitimate to lay down the law to track owners and fully expect them to bear the entire cost of him "gracing them with his presence". This costs millions of dollars, and i'd suggest there are some circuits which would barely be viable after jumping through Cochrane's hoops... don't the owners have the right to expect to be able to make a fair profit from the V8s? Or is it only Cochrane who's allowed to rape and pillage the wallets of the punters?

As someone asked somewhere else, is there any way to replace him, with perhaps someone who understands the sport, and will plan for longevity of the sport overall, not just make it look good on paper for possibly prospective buyers?

[Robert Ryan]

V8Superdave, he is following NASCAR's example to the Letter. He expects , like they do someone else to upgrade or build the tracks and they come and administer them. Bernie has put some money back into tracks in the UK, but is far from vast.

[jetsetter]

Kieron, on your point about the amount of rounds we have now compared to pre-supercars you'd be suprised at how comparitive the numbers are. In '92 which was the last year the Group A's ran there were nine rounds all held at permanent circuits plus they had Bathurst & Sandown which were not part of the championship which meant eleven races all up with ten at permanent circuits & one at Bathurst, when you take in to account that Sandown held two races we had eight permanent facilities hold events. In 2004 we have twelve races confirmed at this point with nine being held at permanent facilities, two on street circuits & then one held at Bathurst & when you take in to account that EC holds two rounds that means that only eight permanent facilities hold events, based on those figures i can't see where AVESCO has improved things for the promoters of permanent facilities.

[pete55]

V8 Supercars and Konica might have good fields but what has happened to the other categories. There is only so much corporate sponsorship available in a country like Australia and V8's seem to have soaked most of that up.

[V8 Superdave]

Exactly.... Cochrane's attitude is "If i can find a way to make more money than you, i'll bury you to do it, and be damned with what happens to the face of motor racing".

Somebody explain to me how that's good for the sport? Coz as i see it, it's only good for those involved in V8SC, and AVESCO in particular.

Sure, it gets the V8s lots of money and exposure, but almost all other categories get shafted, and then where do the recruits come from?... oh, i know, let's pay EVEN MORE money and import drivers.... what a *******g joke.

His myopic vision and sigle-mindedness will be the death of the other categories in Australian racing, and it seems that most are happy to let it go on, as long as they get to see their beloved Falcadores run.

I love seeing the V8s race, make no mistake, but it IS important to take care of the other racing categories as well, from amateur and club level up. If Cochrane's allowed to continue his monopolisation of money for racing in Oz, there won't be anything left worthwhile looking at, because they won't be able to afford to run at the same circuits, and in some states, that's the only place they CAN run.

If this was happening in a football team, the media and fans would be all over this like ants on honey........

[Robert Ryan]

V8Superdave, it is up to the other catergories to start getting into the Limelight. They have to organise something that will interest sponsors. As much as I do not expect AFL to try and promote Rugby League in areas where League is weak. Do not expect Cochrane and AVESCO to nuture other catergories The only way they do now is indirectly,by having them on as supports. Non-roadracing is also starting to come back(i.e. Drag Racing). We need more disciplines in motorsport to ptomote and organise themselves properly.
V8Supercar is doing what NASCAR is doing in the US. The same arguements are also being used there. Unless someone does a "PROCAR", Australian Rally, Targa Tasmaina or Bikes, then V8Supercar will keep on getting stronger.

[Crash Test]

Originally posted by pete55
There is only so much corporate sponsorship available in a country like Australia and V8's seem to have soaked most of that up.

Ey?? I don't know if I totally get your drift here. Whose fault is it that sponsors want to get behind V8s? Maybe if other classes built up to the level that the V8s are at, they would get the corporate backing.

Just going back a bit to 1992. The national classes competing were Group A touring cars, Formula Brabham, APCC, Sports Sedans, Formula Ford, Auscar, Nascar, and I suppose to an extent there were also the super trucks.

In 2004 we have V8 Supercars, Konica V8s, Nations Cup, GT Performance, APCC, V8 BRutes, F3, Future Racers, Aussie Racers, Carrera Cup, Historic Tourers, Formula Ford, Lotii, Commodore Cup, and I suppose later in the year F4000 and Trans Am/Sports Sedans.

8ish versus 16ish.

Would it be fair to say that with the growth in V8 Supercar there has been a growth in popularity of the other categories, and subsequently more money going into the sport.

The V8 fraternity are far from perfect, and they have done things wrong in the past, but can they be blamed for other categories not being as popular as they are?

[V8 Superdave]

Isn't that cause for concern? Is that how we want things to happen in this country?

For some smarmy money hungry prat to do NOTHING for the sport as a whole except steal the limelight and sponsorship, and line his own pockets? He's sure as hell not putting anything back, and his focus is on creating a commodity he can sell for the best price. Make no mistake, that's going to be what happens at some point.

He has no interest in furthering motor racing, in fact he couldn't care less, he's only concerned for what his BUSINESS is doing.

This is exactly the same kind of thing as a large supermarket chain opening a new store, and killing lots of small businesses. They couldn't care less, and neither does Cochrane. What happens to the competition doesn't interest them unless it impacts on their profits. The businesses might not be related, but the concept and attitude is identical.

And is anyone attempting to do something about it? No. We sit and say "That's the way it goes, and it's up to the other categories"....

Well exactly what can they do, if, as has been pointed out, the sponsorship pool is heavily tapped by V8SC? It's pretty hard to materialise a truckload of money, and do deals, when your'e running a poor second to Cochrane and co. He's in the power position (and doesn't he know it), and there's really only Ross palmer in anything like a position to offer any sort of reasonable competition. It's great to support Ross and others, but how long will that go on for if Cochrane continues as he is currently?

Add to this the ridiculous situation with events not being able to be held at non-CAMS affiliated tracks for some stupid reasoning of only CAMS can provide the insurance, or some such prepostorous other furphy.... how in God's name can anyone do anything about it?

I'm steamed about this, but i just don't know where to go or what to do for a solution.... is it worthwhile getting a bunch of people organised through forums to look at this and investigate? I'm happy to do what i can, but in all seriousness, i'm just an armchair punter with no involvement apart from spectating. I'd be happy to be contacted by anyone who's already involved, or can give some direction to what needs to be done to raise the profile and scope of the problem.

I don't doubt that Cochrane has done wonders for this series, but it's now at the point where his efforts are going to (if they haven't already) damage other racing, and that should not be allowed to happen, just because a business man wants to make more money.

[aj_308]

Originally posted by V8 Superdave


For some smarmy money hungry prat to do NOTHING for the sport as a whole except steal the limelight and sponsorship, and line his own pockets? ..

..I don't doubt that Cochrane has done wonders for this series,

So which one is it?

[V8 Superdave]

Sorry AJ.....

I was trying to get at yes, he HAS raised the profile of the sport, but whilst focusing on maximum dollar exctaction for his company. He's not done this benevolently, it's purely a money making excercise. Not accidental, but only for a specific purpose, a means to an end if you will. The next sentence though, AJ gave some context.... "but it's now at the point where his efforts are going to (if they haven't already) damage other racing, and that should not be allowed to happen, just because a business man wants to make more money"

Am i oversimplifying things? Seiously. I have a view, and i'm pretty strong in that view... am i failing to see other parts of the puzzle, am i too focused?

So far, people have been happy,with the improvements but now, when there's the outcry against Cochrane for the whole China and ignoring the fans thing, he basically pulls the "It's my series, and i'll do with it what i want" line.

I'm not saying that the sport being more popular as a result of his efforts is a bad thing, quite the reverse in fact, but if nothing's done, or he's allowed to continue in the way he currently conducts business, this series will be nothing more than a peak in his profit graph, before he moves onto the next project. He sees the series as his personal property, when clearly it's NOT.

That's NOT how i want to see the Supercars, neither do i want them to go (nor do i believe it's necessary to) overseas in order to continue to be great. I reject Cochrane's assertion that it has to happen. Home rounds will be replaced by overseas rounds, because i doubt there's the flexibility for teams and TV deals to extend the current season, and your'e not going to slot in overseas races as well as the current series rounds.

His reasoning for going overseas is that AVESCO gets a bigger slice of the action. Again i ask, do the TEAMS get paid more for travelling overseas, or is it just that the cost of travel and accomodation is borne by the local promoter? No increase in revenue to the teams as such, simply a reduction in the cost of attending that round.

So, again, where's the benefit? Cochrane tells us there's a "massive" audience in China, but refuses to back this up when asked repeatedly with any kind of figures which appear anywhere but inside his own head. I'm willing to be convinced there's an audience, if i'm shown some sort of projections, but until then, it's just someone telling me porkies to get his own way. I still don't believe the series needs to go overseas though. NZ excepted. At least we KNOW howe popular the series is there, and the fans support the racing when it's there.

[aj_308]

exactly, who knows? if the series goes over to china, the people there spend up big on merchandise and millions of them watch the telecast/view the race, then wouldnt it be a good thing? Not for the people that lose a round here, but are we being greedy expecting the promoter to shell out their own cash to fix up rubbish tracks?

[pete55]

Do you think the teams will order and take with them 20 or 100 times more merchandise in the hope that the Chinese will want to be seen in it. I doubt there will be a big percentage of Chinese at the event, more likely expats and foreigners.
Also we are a small country, we don't have millions of dollars to spend on tracks. But if AVESCO sucked a little less from the tracks they might be able to upgrade them some more.

[Mattracer]

Originally posted by pete55
We have some people that really have no idea here. AVESCO looks after V8 Supercars. They do nothing for any other forms of sport (all they do is suck all of the blood out of other categories) and they do nothing for permanent circuits. I wonder where the next lot of V8 Supercar drivers will learn their race craft if all of the permanent circuits disappear.

I dislike street circuits, they don't give anything long term back to the sport as a whole, nowhere for driver training, road car evaluations, track days, car club drive days, testing facilities for the professional teams (in any category). Adelaide is OK, it has the heritage from the AGP and is a good circuit as circuits go.

[Mattracer]

Originally posted by V8 Superdave
neither do i want them to go (nor do i believe it's necessary to) overseas in order to continue to be great. I reject Cochrane's assertion that it has to happen. Home rounds will be replaced by overseas rounds,

NZ excepted. At least we KNOW howe popular the series is there, and the fans support the racing when it's there.

At least Ford/Holden are sold in NZ and there are some top line NZ drivers in the series.

I don't accept the idea that because it is an Austrlain series and it should be about Austrlia, (and NZ ) it is i some way regressive and backward-thinking to keep it here, call the the ATCC amd race on permanent circuits. What's wrong with that? Despite what many would have us believe , motorsport is not as widely accepted in the 'burbs as we're told. The vast majority of people in society just "don't get it" when it come to motor racing and despite the massive crowds at street circuits like Sdelaide and Indy, we're preaching to the converted anyway or the come latelys who don't know much except that "Skaseie drives a red Holden and MarCUS drives a blue Ford, like tricky dicky used to."

[rustyinsthoz]

Re the number of rounds today and in 92 . In the early 70s , 73 , 74 I think , you had the the 7 round ATCC , the 5 round manufacturers championship , which included Bathurst . You also had the South Pacific TC , run in conjunction with the Australian rounds of the Tasman Championship and also 4 or 5 round Sun 7 series run at Amaroo Pk . Plus you could run Touring cars in the Toby Lee sports sedan championship at Oran Pk which was 4 or 5 rounds as well . So you had a potential 24 meeting you could race or spectate at .

How many do we have today ?