Autosport's verdict on best tin-top series

[ATF]

Is anyone a subscriber to Autosport+? I just wondered what the outcome of this article was (although wasn't wondering enough to subscribe)!! ;-)

http://plus.autosport.com/premium/fe...506.1408445508

[gregc]

I don't know the full result, but DTM came out on top with BTCC second - http://www.btcc.net/2015/02/19/btcc-...racing-series/

[redshoes]

It was done by awarding points in 5 categories - entertainment, competition, cars, prestige and variety. BTCC was joint second, tied with V8 Supercars and Super TC2000.

1 DTM: 43
2= BTCC: 42
2= V8 Supercars: 42
2= Super TC2000: 42
5 WTCC: 38
6 V8 Stock Car: 37
7 STCC: 30
8 ETCC: 24

[ascarracinguk]

which is all well and good, but the DTM races are boring and v8 supercars are way better than btcc.....

[Andrew Abbott]

People will always have their own views on this, even tin top journalists.

I for one an disappointed with the scoring consistency of Autosport, who have given the BTCC a 10/10 for variety, citing its different models, then based its 9/10 for WTCC on the different tracks! If the circuits factor into it, then surely the BTCC can't get a 10/10 for the same calendar year-in year-out with no street circuits etc?

I do agree with them putting the DTM first though.

Originally Posted by ascarracinguk

which is all well and good, but the DTM races are boring and v8 supercars are way better than btcc.....

Watch DTM this year - revamped race format, including two races per event. Then let's see if you say the same at the end of the year.

[Thaw Daggerslash]

No surprises that a UK based magazine rates the BTCC so highly. I wonder if rival publications around the world, in Germany, Australia or wherever would be as complimentary. I'm not convinced that it is rated as highly as DTM and the V8s away from these shores...

DTM without doubt has the strongest driver line. Probably the strongest line up outside of F1, and at least on par with LMP1 in WEC. But in terms of the cars, racing, and tracks, V8 Supercars is definitely better.

A V8 Supercar is how a touring car should be. Spectacular, fast, and aggressive looking with limited aero. DTM cars aren't really true touring cars. As Autosport says themselves, they're more like single seaters.

[Sodemo]

Ahhh, I was sat here poised ready for a thread to open so I can have a rant about touring car regulations again...

Its a shame the DTM doesn't visit the UK any more. I would go to a UK round if it were re-introduced. I do agree though, the cars aren't really touring cars any more, they are more like GT2 cars. When you compare to the GR.A days of the E30 BMW and 190E, now those were proper touring cars.

I have followed the BTCC on and off since 1988. My interest peaked in the mid 90s when Williams got involved with Renault (I was a massive Damon Hill and Williams fan). However for me, the NGTC cars themselves don't really thrill me like past regs have. I even preferred S2000 to NGTC, so this is not some kind of super touring nostalgia-fest. I personally think that the current BTCC cars, with their bolted-on Halfords bodykits, just don't look like the precision pieces of engineering that super touring and S2000 did. The cars look and handle like they are overweight, they have poor change of direction and roll around a lot in the corners.

Having said all of that, I will applaud the regs for making possible a full grid and lots of variety, and for also upping the engine power from the S2000 days where I think the cars were probably a bit underpowered (perhaps the only negative thing I will say about S2000).

Regarding the entertainment factor of the BTCC. I am not so sure that these NGTC regs provide better racing than regs of days past. I attended quite a few rounds last year of the BTCC and to be honest, there were quite a number of processional races.

I also don't think that adding more weight (in the form of penalty ballast) is the way to go on cars which are already near 1300kg.

[Thaw Daggerslash]

Originally Posted by Sodemo

I have followed the BTCC on and off since 1988. My interest peaked in the mid 90s when Williams got involved with Renault (I was a massive Damon Hill and Williams fan). However for me, the NGTC cars themselves don't really thrill me like past regs have. I even preferred S2000 to NGTC, so this is not some kind of super touring nostalgia-fest. I personally think that the current BTCC cars, with their bolted-on Halfords bodykits, just don't look like the precision pieces of engineering that super touring and S2000 did. The cars look and handle like they are overweight, they have poor change of direction and roll around a lot in the corners.

Yeah, I completely agree with you here. The NGTCs don't really look like proper racing cars. They look like badly tarted up road cars. Aesthetically, the V8 Supercars are miles ahead.

Plus I'm not a fan of the turbo engines either. To use a Martin Brundle expression, they sound like a right bag of nails. At least in the S2000 days they sounded a lot nicer. I remember one year I was at Donington, and I had just missed the start of the first race. But as I was entering the circuit, I could actually tell the cars apart from their slightly different engine notes. The BMWs in particular were very distinctive and easy to pick out. That sadly has been lost with these NGTC engines, were they all sound the same - and it's not a nice noise either.

[DS"]

I'll never understand why foreigners love the DTM more than the Germans do. The DTM is like the David Hasselhoff of the touring car series.

I have said countless times what I don't like about the DTM. Namely the lack of personality in drivers and the overreliance on aerodynamics. However, I think the DTM may be slowly changing for the better in 2015. For once, there are two races per weekend. Now they could race up to ten times per weekend, but it won't do any good if the racing is still as boring as it was in years prior. However, when they rework the race format into a simpler, yet more effective one, maybe that will change.
I also like that they don't have that many international races. Now I'm not against international races, but I really think that the DTM should rebuild itself for the time being and by putting their focus on Germany, plus it's neighbouring countries, they can put renewed effort into rebuilding their German and eventually also their international fanbase.

[mikuni]

If anything, DTM should be rated the most disappointing touring car series. It has everything, the budgets, the cars, the drivers, the tracks, internationally adopted technical regulations, yet it fails to fire. As far as what it gives to the spectator, V8 Supercars delivers so much more than DTM.

I believe touring cars are continually evolving at the moment, more than ever. I think this is for a variety of reasons, not least of all the fact that people are moving away from a typical 'touring car' road vehicle in favour of SUVs and hatch backs. It is an interesting time, and I really hope that touring cars come out of the other side unscathed. What we have (if anything) in 2020 will be telling, IMO.

[BertMk2]

DTM is awesome if you're standing trackside as the cars blast past - the sound is incredible, the racing isn't door to door but it's still a great live experience. It loses that on tv.

BTCC is good fun live and on tv - you just have to unplug your brain a bit and accept that it's not a non-contact series, the 'push to pass' concept is deemed acceptable.

I've not seen WTCC in it's current format so can't really comment on that but I enjoyed it live in it's S2000 incarnation when they came to Brands Hatch. I've not seen much TV coverage of WTCC.

V8's - I can't really comment on - I've not seen enough of it, the only time I've seen any of them in the flesh it's been the odd one or two that turn up in club racing over here - impressive cars but not so good in a mixed field!

The others - I've not really seen anything of them, odd snippets here and there but nothing much and certainly not live.

[GusGasfuss]

Real touring cars don't need wings, huge horsepower or talented F1-youngsters.

They need close fights, hard duels, cars that can stand a few stains and of course drivers, who can be entertaining even outside the car.

And maybe fans should recognize the race cars on the street, which is not very easy with some of the actual touring cars.

[FIRE]

For me V8 Supercars is miles ahead of the other series.

If only rate the racing part BTCC will score high.

[Accident]

V8 Supercars is the clear winner for me. Cars look great, sound great, move great, and race well against each other. It has a nice sort of classic battle with Holden and Ford (even though that may be ending soon). Australia has some great tracks I think, and probably the best street circuits in the world, and there is a nice mix between them. Plenty of races throughout the year. On the driver front, there are plenty of good drivers and lots of likeable drivers.

BTCC would probably come second. I don't much care for most of the cars but then hatchbacks and economy cars aren't really my thing. The racing is usually good enough to make up for any of the shortcomings I think.

DTM might get better this year, but if this ranking is going by how they have been up to this point, it wouldn't be all that high. Sure it has a greatly talented list of drivers, but it's kinda hard to care much about any of them as most of them do seem pretty "vanilla." They run on some good tracks but sometimes run on lame short versions of them. Even with the DRS and mixed tire gimmicks, it just never felt like there was much action. The cars are interesting looking and are fast, but I don't think they really provide "touring car racing" if that makes sense.

[Speed-King]

Most interesting thing I learned on this thread: The grass really is always greener on the other side...

Germans love to bag DTM, Brits are embarrassed because the "B" in BTCC obviously stands for "bangers", and while not in this thread, there's plenty of Aussies that would have V8Supertaxis make way for something else better today than tomorrow.

[BtccLee]

Originally Posted by Speed-King

Most interesting thing I learned on this thread: The grass really is always greener on the other side...

Germans love to bag DTM, Brits are embarrassed because the "B" in BTCC obviously stands for "bangers", and while not in this thread, there's plenty of Aussies that would have V8Supertaxis make way for something else better today than tomorrow.

I have observed this across threads and it's really only with Touring Cars. The BTCC is great if your not British. The DTM is superb, if you're not German. And Aussie V8s are awesome. Unless you live in the country they're from.

Truth be told there's something to love in every series. And if you don't like yours, there's probably an Aussie and a German, a German and a Brit or a Brit and an Aussie who does.

[BertMk2]

Originally Posted by Accident

V8 Supercars is the clear winner for me. Cars look great, sound great, move great, and race well against each other. It has a nice sort of classic battle with Holden and Ford (even though that may be ending soon). Australia has some great tracks I think, and probably the best street circuits in the world, and there is a nice mix between them. Plenty of races throughout the year. On the driver front, there are plenty of good drivers and lots of likeable drivers.

As a result of my lack of knowledge on the Aussie V8's (and the dire selection of options on other tv channels) I watched the coverage of the Clipsal 500 race weekend on Motors TV over the last couple of days. Maybe it was the track but the racing wasn't anything to write home about - lots of nose to tail but the cars seemed incapable of getting past each other (although a couple did attempt to drive through their opponents). I'm not a fan of street circuits generally anyway but that circuit did look pretty poor - too tight to really allow the cars to stretch their legs and there only really seemed to be one place cars could even try an overtake. I'll keep an eye out for more coverage though - it's still better than "celebrity whatever crap they've come up with this week"

[steve_r]

I agree - the only recent Aussie V8 race that I watched was the same, but I assume they are much more awesome on a proper race track instead of a narrow stop-start street track.

Is DTM going to be on British TV this year?

[BertMk2]

Originally Posted by steve_r

Is DTM going to be on British TV this year?

I think highlights will be on channel 4 and Motors (as part of Mobil 1 - The Grid) and Live on BT Sport. (at least assuming I'm reading the website right!)

http://www.dtm.com/en/Worldwide-TV/Coverage.html

[Tja]

Originally Posted by steve_r

I agree - the only recent Aussie V8 race that I watched was the same, but I assume they are much more awesome on a proper race track instead of a narrow stop-start street track.

It's even worse at some of the permanent circuits, at Winton they don't even use 6th gear I think. But some circuits like Philip Island or of course Bathurst have produced fantastic racing over the last few years. One big issue that I see with their racing at the moment is tyres. For all three qualifying sessions and the three races, each driver had five sets of tires. Forcing them to constantly look after their tyres doesn't produce good racing in my eyes.