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Old 25 Mar 2017, 00:21 (Ref:3721296)   #276
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Originally Posted by knighty View Post
lets be honest, what else could they have been working on!......also McLaren have more to lose than gain by driopping honda, we are talking hundreds of millions of lost revenue if they ditch Honda, which could easily bankrupt McLaren as a company, hence its worth fixing
There is nowhere for McLaren to go, this says it all really, no works engine, no chance:

Since the new 1.6-litre V6 Formula 1 engine rules began we have seen Mercedes win 51 of the 59 Grands Prix. Its customers have won 0 victories. Even when the Mercedes team has messed up, others have beaten the customer Mercedes teams.


Also I feel pushes the point that the engines should all be homologated, and the works should not be allowed to run anything in a different spec from their customers.

Last edited by wnut; 25 Mar 2017 at 00:31.
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Old 25 Mar 2017, 05:26 (Ref:3721337)   #277
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With the exception of the special year old Ferrari deal they can't.

Mercedes have been better than most in engine parity with customers even before the current regs.
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Old 25 Mar 2017, 07:54 (Ref:3721359)   #278
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Originally Posted by F1Guy View Post
Honda F1 chief Yusuke Hasegawa has apparently just announced that Honda are now working on yet another new engine!
I bet the one in my Accord could last a whole grand prix.
I also bet the one in the back of the McLarens this weekend may not.

Wonder how much the team might buy my car for?
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Old 25 Mar 2017, 10:23 (Ref:3721382)   #279
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Originally Posted by GTRMagic View Post
I bet the one in my Accord could last a whole grand prix.
I also bet the one in the back of the McLarens this weekend may not.

Wonder how much the team might buy my car for?
Is it a V6 Accord? Maybe a quick engine swap overnight and hope the FIA don't notice.

Oh, and careful with the jokes GTR. The glum and depressed will point out that that it just isn't funny.
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Old 25 Mar 2017, 21:57 (Ref:3721498)   #280
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Is it a V6 Accord? Maybe a quick engine swap overnight and hope the FIA don't notice.

Oh, and careful with the jokes GTR. The glum and depressed will point out that that it just isn't funny.
It is only funny to cover up how horribly sad it actually is.

We are back to watching Earth Dreams again..

Does it *really* make sense for Honda to throw a lazy E500 million down the throat of the F1 program when it goes this bad?

They should take a customer LMP2 chassis to Japan, fit their latest (lack of) powerplant and flog the living daylights out of it on one of their racetracks til it gets blessed with some performance & driveability & reliability...

This cannot go on...
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Old 26 Mar 2017, 00:52 (Ref:3721512)   #281
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I just cannot understand how these water leaks, vibration issues, part breakages etc. are not picked up earlier?? We are talking of Honda Racing Japan here, not Mr Miyagi's Race Engines down the road.

Surely Honda Racing in Japan has a 7 post chassis/engine dyno that they could simulate hours of engine running combined with chassis movements. Surely they must have. Honda could program a engine killer track like Spa and simulate the chassis movements with engine parameters to get as close to real life data as possible. This can be done for hours/days on end as there are no restrictions on engine testing on chassis dyno's. They don't really have to have a test mule for the track as today's simulation technology is very accurate.

If they are doing the above (which I'm sure they are), combined with all the resources available to Honda Racing, and are still having reliability issues after 3 years (which they certainly are), then sorry to say, Honda are just pathetic, and need to pack up and leave the sport. Harsh? Probably. But just think about this. Mercedes, Renault and Ferrari had less time to build their V6T's than Honda did with their first V6T engine concept. Contrary to what's been widely reported, Honda did not start on their engine design in 2014.

Honda has been in and out of F1 a few times now. They have a proven track record of being unable to commit to F1 long term. And this time around will be no different. Once they look at how much money has been poured into this latest F1 venture, the next new CEO, who is not a F1 fan, will pull the plug once again in a few years time (or even sooner).
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Old 26 Mar 2017, 01:04 (Ref:3721513)   #282
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mikuni should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridmikuni should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
I'm not sure how much you can read into these (link below) - L Stroll being at the top leads to a few questions (braking far too late?) - however I still find it interesting.

From this it appears McLaren are not in such a bad position (which is backed up by Alonso qualifying in 13th, however I think that was more attrition of other cars/drivers). McLaren are only about 10km/h down at vmax and on par with Ferraris 2016 PU, which isn't all that bad considering they are still technically a year behind in the development timeline. Law of diminishing returns should have them close by the end of the season, providing they can get their reliability sorted.

http://www.fia.com/file/54531/download?token=PPrtPc2p
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Old 26 Mar 2017, 01:38 (Ref:3721518)   #283
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Surely Honda Racing in Japan has a 7 post chassis/engine dyno that they could simulate hours of engine running combined with chassis movements. Surely they must have.
I expect they have already done that given it is standard practice and supposedly Honda has significant resources at their F1 center in Japan. Given that the problems seem to be engine vibration issues that are aggravated by driveline vibrations, you have to wonder if they were testing with a 2017 McLaren transmission plus rear suspension or something else that was not fully replicating the real deal, or some other flaw in how they simulated on track running.

I think the problems they are having would not happen with full manufacturers like Mercedes, Ferrari or Renault who are likely doing integration testing early and often. It would be interesting to know how this works between McLaren and Honda.

Regardless they have held it together through qualifying which surprised me. Let's see how it plays out tomorrow. You can find videos of this online, but they have adjusted how upshifts work (they are much slower now) and that is being reported to reduce the introduction of vibrations into the engine. I still tend to feel they will work this out. If they manage to finish one or both cars tomorrow then everyone might be singing a different tune. Imagine if they actually manage to score points!

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Old 26 Mar 2017, 04:15 (Ref:3721526)   #284
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Been hearing and reading a few comments that at least McLaren/Honda finished qualifying without issue, they're not doing so bad, we should give Honda a break, etc. etc. etc.

What a load of horse manure!

This is now Honda's "updated" engine. Built with lessons learnt from their previous design. And after 2 full race seasons, 4 years in total of R&D, 2 different engine designs and millions of $$'s spent, it's good that they at least finished qualifying?? And they're "not doing so bad"? Really?? Give me a break.

I'm a fan of McLaren. They were 'my favourite team' when my interest in F1 began as a six year old. And still are one of my favourite teams. And I can truly say, as a fan of McLaren, my patience with Honda has come to an end. Even if they start to do "ok" later in the season, I will not be a Honda F1 supporter. McLaren yes, Honda no.
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Old 26 Mar 2017, 07:14 (Ref:3721560)   #285
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stripedcat should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridstripedcat should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
After the Oz result - it looks like it's a no.
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Old 26 Mar 2017, 09:19 (Ref:3721586)   #286
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Clearly Honda's simulation technology sucks..

A 10km/h difference in Vmax doesn't help you understand how it gets there. They didnt show too many onboards with the McLarens, but the customer Benz in the Force India, and even the pretty crummy Renault seemed to leave the McLaren in their dust at the end.

Did the suspension *really* break in the McLaren, or was it about to run out of motion lotion? Mr Alonso complained of fuel saving all race...
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Old 26 Mar 2017, 14:54 (Ref:3721627)   #287
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Been hearing and reading a few comments that at least McLaren/Honda finished qualifying without issue, they're not doing so bad, we should give Honda a break, etc. etc. etc.

What a load of horse manure!
Well, we all have our opinions! Maybe that things actually worked decently well today considering how bad things were in testing isn't setting well with you. If they continue to make progress will your complaints increase?

Regardless, given how badly things went in testing and they are in a bad place, today was a good day for McLaren and Honda and it's a stretch to argue otherwise! I think just days ago people wondered if they would finish the race (I picked them for double DNF) and they finished one car and Alonso almost scored points before a reported chassis issue (see below for more comments on that). And don't get me wrong, I fully expect things to continue to be bad for a number of races yet to come. They are likely to have more DNFs, etc.

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This is now Honda's "updated" engine. Built with lessons learnt from their previous design.
You may want to do some reading. This is not an update to the old engine, but a full redesign. Regarding lessons learnt, Honda has said that the prior engine was generally speaking at a development dead end. A new path was needed, hence the full redesign vs. an update to the prior platform.

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Even if they start to do "ok" later in the season, I will not be a Honda F1 supporter. McLaren yes, Honda no.
Ok then, got it, not a Honda fan!

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Clearly Honda's simulation technology sucks..
I am a Honda fan, but not an apologist. They clearly screwed up in multiple ways. There can be no argument there. Given that is in the past, the question is how quickly can they recover and does this new concept have legs. Time will tell.

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A 10km/h difference in Vmax doesn't help you understand how it gets there. They didnt show too many onboards with the McLarens, but the customer Benz in the Force India, and even the pretty crummy Renault seemed to leave the McLaren in their dust at the end.
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Mr Alonso complained of fuel saving all race...
It generally felt Honda made a number of tuning changes to increase reliability. Speculation is less revs, likely a bit richer burn, various other tweaks to reduce vibrations. All of that probably adds up to lower power and higher consumption. Alonso was likely on fuel savings strategy for most or all of the race. Isn't it interesting that he ran in 10th for most of the race given all of those handicaps!

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Did the suspension *really* break in the McLaren, or was it about to run out of motion lotion?
That is a good question. Given how McLaren has been willing to call out Honda's performance, I can't see them taking a dive for Honda and saying it was the car if it was the engine. While Alonso mentioned suspension failure in post race interviews, the official statement from McLaren says that he had a damage left front brake duct for the entire race, but ultimately retired due to a broken floor. Even on the radio when Alonso lost 10th late in the race, he called out a problem with the car at that very moment and not the engine. But to your point, yeah he may have run the fuel very close. I guess only McLaren and Honda know the truth.

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Old 26 Mar 2017, 17:07 (Ref:3721649)   #288
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Been hearing and reading a few comments that at least McLaren/Honda finished qualifying without issue, they're not doing so bad, we should give Honda a break, etc. etc. etc.

What a load of horse manure!

This is now Honda's "updated" engine. Built with lessons learnt from their previous design. And after 2 full race seasons, 4 years in total of R&D, 2 different engine designs and millions of $$'s spent, it's good that they at least finished qualifying?? And they're "not doing so bad"? Really?? Give me a break.

I'm a fan of McLaren. They were 'my favourite team' when my interest in F1 began as a six year old. And still are one of my favourite teams. And I can truly say, as a fan of McLaren, my patience with Honda has come to an end. Even if they start to do "ok" later in the season, I will not be a Honda F1 supporter. McLaren yes, Honda no.
Don't be naïve sir. McLaren has as much of an input into PU overall approach and design as Honda.
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Old 27 Mar 2017, 02:56 (Ref:3721741)   #289
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So... Honda has said they have been talking to other teams about engine supply, Article Here suggests they have been talking to Sauber..

Would Honda *really* split from McLaren... and would Sauber *really* be better off with a Honda engine than a year old Ferrari unit... or would Sauber *really* be able to contribute to Honda's engine development when they seem to struggle to just participate..

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Old 27 Mar 2017, 05:17 (Ref:3721750)   #290
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Old 27 Mar 2017, 09:16 (Ref:3721807)   #291
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So... Honda has said they have been talking to other teams about engine supply, Article Here suggests they have been talking to Sauber..

Would Honda *really* split from McLaren... and would Sauber *really* be better off with a Honda engine than a year old Ferrari unit... or would Sauber *really* be able to contribute to Honda's engine development when they seem to struggle to just participate..

Unless Honda offers to pay Sauber (which would help their bank balance). That would give double the cars running the engines, which helps data collection.
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Old 27 Mar 2017, 10:29 (Ref:3721838)   #292
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Unless Honda offers to pay Sauber (which would help their bank balance). That would give double the cars running the engines, which helps data collection.
That's the way I see it, I'm sure it would help Honda no end to have another team running their engines in addition to McLaren. Double the mileage (however small that may be) would also mean double feedback.
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Old 27 Mar 2017, 10:36 (Ref:3721839)   #293
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So... Honda has said they have been talking to other teams about engine supply, Article Here suggests they have been talking to Sauber..

Would Honda *really* split from McLaren... and would Sauber *really* be better off with a Honda engine than a year old Ferrari unit... or would Sauber *really* be able to contribute to Honda's engine development when they seem to struggle to just participate..

They are looking to supply in addition to McLaren. Not a split. Generally it is felt that Ron wanted exclusive access. That's great if it's the top engine, but not if you need development. With Ron gone, maybe McLaren has seen the light that acting as the only development team is not to their benefit. There has been plenty written talking about just this.

Would another mid-field or even backmarker team benefit from running a factory Honda in 2018? Given it's likely they would be running the same spec as McLaren (they need mileage on the newest components), the answer is "Yes". It's highly likely that most if not all of the reliability issues will be resolved by the start of 2018. Especially in a no token environment. Performance... time will tell.

How often are teams winning with customer Mercedes or Ferrari engines these days? Especially a spec that is a year old? It gives those teams a chance to potentially move forward in relation to their nearby competitors. It's also likely that whoever becomes the second team might get a favorable deal financially.

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Old 27 Mar 2017, 16:56 (Ref:3721906)   #294
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It would make sense for Honda to spread their wings and supply an additional team. Ron wanted it exclusive because he thought Honda would produce a ducey that only McLaren would have access to, as it turns out they are more of a donkey so they need all avenues to speed up development and increase data collection. If nothing else, if things are a bit heated between Honda and McLaren it would give Honda another outfit to work with and car design to work with so they can perhaps satisfy themselves that it is or isn't all down to their engine and not a car issue as well?
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Old 27 Mar 2017, 17:08 (Ref:3721907)   #295
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Interesting comment by Mark Webber who is pretty close to Alonso, suggesting that Fernando might not see out the year at McLaren...

http://www.autosport.com/news/report...re-end-of-year
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Old 27 Mar 2017, 17:24 (Ref:3721911)   #296
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Interesting comment by Mark Webber who is pretty close to Alonso, suggesting that Fernando might not see out the year at McLaren...

http://www.autosport.com/news/report...re-end-of-year
If true, it begs the question, where will he go? All seats are taken this year. Could he get Bottas's seat after his one year contract is up? I don't think Lewis would like that.
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Old 27 Mar 2017, 17:24 (Ref:3721912)   #297
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I'd be surprised if the Spaniard walked mid-season, but McLaren do have Button race-ready in the wings if it does come to a crisis.
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Old 27 Mar 2017, 17:45 (Ref:3721918)   #298
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If true, it begs the question, where will he go? All seats are taken this year. Could he get Bottas's seat after his one year contract is up? I don't think Lewis would like that.
Retire from F1? Race in WEC? His frustration with F1 may go beyond McLaren/Honda. They may just be the icing on the cake.

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I'd be surprised if the Spaniard walked mid-season, but McLaren do have Button race-ready in the wings if it does come to a crisis.
If they don't make serious progress by mid-season, then I can imagine it happening. If they make steady progress, it might be harder to believe.

The entire thing with Button not fully retiring and McLaren having him on some of retainer (beyond a brand ambassador or whatever his title is) has always been fishy to me. As if they knew or suspected things might go sideways with Alonso so they keep Button in the wings. The implication being that Alonso had given them notice in advance... If things are not right in 2017, I am gone.

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Old 27 Mar 2017, 18:01 (Ref:3721923)   #299
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Originally Posted by Richard Casto View Post
Retire from F1? Race in WEC? His frustration with F1 may go beyond McLaren/Honda. They may just be the icing on the cake.

If they don't make serious progress by mid-season, then I can imagine it happening. If they make steady progress, it might be harder to believe.

The entire thing with Button not fully retiring and McLaren having him on some of retainer (beyond a brand ambassador or whatever his title is) has always been fishy to me. As if they knew or suspected things might go sideways with Alonso so they keep Button in the wings. The implication being that Alonso had given them notice in advance... If things are not right in 2017, I am gone.

Richard
I don't get the impression he's ready to quit F1. He's always come across as a professional, so I think he would be inclined too tough it out and either look to the Mercedes seat or possibly go back to Ferrari, depending on how the new car and Kimi perform. There's always IndyCar,
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Old 27 Mar 2017, 19:03 (Ref:3721946)   #300
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i was actually very surprised how vocal Palmer was about the Renault post OZ...i can see Alonso taking over that seat for 2018 with a mid season change even a possibility if Palmer gets canned earlier.
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