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Old 29 Oct 2012, 00:37 (Ref:3159281)   #2551
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I am not in favor of cancelling the 120 km/h rule, because that would give Audi a traction advantage. The rule should apply to all hybrid cars. Now Toyota has a big advantage in traffic, because they get the boost immediately.
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Originally Posted by TF110 View Post
In my opinion, Audi has 4wd and 4wd shouldn't be full time/anytime. That's the direction they chose knowing it's 120kmh+.
I am not sure that Audi knew about this restriction when they developed their hybrid system. According to http://www.joest-racing.de/en/index....e-tron-quattro the development of the e-tron quattro started in February 2010 and the initial test were done 18 months later, so July 2011.

In 2010 the hybrid rules were the following:
Quote:
Energy recovery systems are free, provided they respect the following rules:
  • Recovery of energy from the brakes on the 4 wheels or from the heat of the exhaust fumes.
  • Only the rear wheels can be used to propel the car.
  • Regarding energy recovery from the brakes, only electric systems are allowed.
  • Only the storage of electric energy is permitted
  • The car’s minimum weight is identical to that of the other LM P1s using conventional powertrains:
    • petrol: 900 kg,
    • diesel: 930 kg,
  • The maximum amount of fuel allowed on board is identical to that of the other LM P1s using conventional power trains:
    • petrol: 90 l,
    • diesel: 81 l,
  • The combustion engine and the electric motor must be controlled by the driver using the accelerator pedal (push to pass buttons forbidden).
  • The amount of energy used between 2 braking must not exceed 1 MJ
  • The current, voltage and the time of charge and discharge will be measured continuously between the energy storage system and the inverter(s).
  • Safety rules that will be imposed by the ACO
For 2011 the rules were changed to allow front wheel drive and flywheels (thanks to Audi) and to reduce the energy storage from 1 MJ to 500 kJ (thanks to Peugeot):
Quote:
Energy recovery systems are free, provided they respect the following rules:
  • Recovery and release of energy from the brakes, either on the 2 wheels of the front axle, or on the 2 wheels of the rear axle.
  • Recovery from the heat of the exhaust fumes.
  • Regarding energy recovery from the brakes, only electric systems and mechanical or electromechanical flywheel system are allowed.
  • The car’s minimum weight is identical to that of the other LM P1s using conventional power trains: 900 kg.
  • The maximum amount of fuel allowed on board is:
    • petrol: 73 l.
    • diesel: 63 l.
  • The combustion engine and the electric motor must be controlled by the driver using the accelerator pedal (push to pass buttons forbidden).
  • The amount of energy used between 2 braking must not exceed 0.5 MJ. Braking lasting under 1 second will not be taken into account.
  • The current, voltage and the time of charge and discharge will be measured continuously between the energy storage system and the inverter(s).
  • Equivalent sensors will be defined for the inertial systems.
  • Sensors for monitoring the use of the brakes and the wheel speed will equip the car.
  • Safety rules that will be imposed by the ACO
The 120 km/h restriction (thanks to Peugeot) was only introduced in the 2012 technical regulations. The 2012 rules were published at the end of 2011.
Quote:
  • The amount of energy used between 2 braking must not exceed 0.5 MJ.
    Braking is a deceleration of the car greater than 2g.
    Braking lasting under 1 second will not be taken into account.
    If the STSY is connected to the front wheels, the release of energy is permitted only above 120 km/h.
At that stage Audi was already testing their hybrid system and all the important design choices (i.e., axle and energy storage medium) were probably made.
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Old 29 Oct 2012, 00:58 (Ref:3159290)   #2552
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+ http://fourtitude.com/news/Audi_News...l-wheel-drive/
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(Herr Doktor) After presenting our concept to the ACO and the FIA for the first time we received a relatively quick response. They saw that in the case of our hybrid solution in combination with all-wheel drive the quattro factor certainly carries some weight. The FIA wanted to keep this within the limits of a reduced scope because its chief aim is hybridization, not the return of all-wheel drive. Therefore, a clause in the regulations was agreed that limits the advantage of a standard quattro drive when accelerating out of tight corners.
But it probably didn't go as nicely as this PR makes it sound.
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Old 29 Oct 2012, 07:55 (Ref:3159371)   #2553
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Perhaps they should have done what Toyota did and evaluate rear and front drive through the hybrid powertrain. As you say, they started testing the E-Tron in July 2011, which is around the time the 2012 regulations were made. Actually the link you provided shows the regulations dated from June 2011. Knowing the dates helps since they had the knowledge when they started testing that front driven hybrid power would be above 120kmh. So, I think what I stated still remains a fact, That's the direction they chose knowing it's 120kmh+
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Old 29 Oct 2012, 09:05 (Ref:3159404)   #2554
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Originally Posted by chernaudi View Post
And as for thoughts on the AWD vs RWD hybrid stuff mentioned in the LM regs thread, I'm not sure if I'm in favor of doing away, at least entirely, with the 120kmh limit. I'm in favor or lowering it, or slapping RWD hybrids with a limit to help out not only Audi, but also the private teams who can't run hybrids. Based on Bahrain and Shanghai, Rebellion wouldn't be a ton slower than the TS030 if it was without the hybrid system.
The FIA have enough data from the mandatory data logger, as well as lap times, from all the races to make a founded decision on the 120 km/h.

It is interesting to you bring up the BoP of the privateers. The easiest way to determine the performance gap between the manfacturers and privateers, is with the 2% rule from the FIA WEC sporting regulations.
  • Le Mans
    • Audi #1: 3:28.842
    • Rebellion #12: 3:35.285 -> 3.09%
  • Silverstone
    • Toyota #7: 1:46.032
    • Audi #1: 1:46.590
    • Strakka #21: 1:48.554 -> 2.38%
  • Sao Paulo
    • Toyota #7: 1:24.279
    • Audi #1: 1:24.780
    • Rebellion #12: 1:25.956 -> 1.99%
  • Bahrain
    • Toyota #7: 1:48.099
    • Audi #1: 1:48.359
    • Strakka #21: 1:50.670 -> 2.38%
  • Fuji
    • Toyota #7: 1:29.328
    • Audi #1: 1:29.310
    • Rebellion #12: 1:31.939 -> 2.94%
  • Shanghai
    • Toyota #7: 1:49.854
    • Audi #2: 1:50.580 -> 0.66 %
    • Rebellion #12: 1:53.242 -> 3.08%
The privateers were always more than 2% slower than the manufacturers. If the FIA respects their own rules, they will definitely get a BoP break in 2013.
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Old 29 Oct 2012, 09:25 (Ref:3159412)   #2555
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Originally Posted by TF110 View Post
Perhaps they should have done what Toyota did and evaluate rear and front drive through the hybrid powertrain. As you say, they started testing the E-Tron in July 2011, which is around the time the 2012 regulations were made.
So Audi should have thrown away the 18 months of work, during which the whole system was designed, when the FIA technical department agreed on the 120 km/h rule?

Audi probably did not have the luxury of developing two hybrid solutions and then choosing the best solution based on track testing and the final rule book. Remember that 2012 was planned to be a development year only for Toyota, whereas Audi had to be ready to face Peugeot in a full WEC season.

BTW the 120 km/h rule was officially announced on 10/10/2011, but Audi obviously knew this a few months earlier.

Last edited by gwyllion; 29 Oct 2012 at 11:58.
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Old 29 Oct 2012, 14:57 (Ref:3159573)   #2556
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Originally Posted by gwyllion View Post
The FIA have enough data from the mandatory data logger, as well as lap times, from all the races to make a founded decision on the 120 km/h.
But it's not just about relative performance. It's about the philosophy shift of allowing AWD. Arguably RWD cars are way more spectacular and appealing to the fans. I'm all for technology, but at that rate we may quickly arrive from RWD and simple TC to complex stability electronic systems and then ultimately to autonomous race cars, because that would be more efficient and innovative.

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Old 29 Oct 2012, 15:31 (Ref:3159589)   #2557
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Originally Posted by gwyllion View Post
The privateers were always more than 2% slower than the manufacturers. If the FIA respects their own rules, they will definitely get a BoP break in 2013.
But the rule isn't about BoPing between manufacturers vs. privateers, but betweeen different different "propulsion technologies". Altough, right now it's the same thing...
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Old 29 Oct 2012, 15:34 (Ref:3159591)   #2558
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Originally Posted by Pandamasque View Post
But it's not just about relative performance. It's about the philosophy shift of allowing AWD. Arguably RWD cars are way more spectacular and appealing to the fans. I'm all for technology, but at that rate we may quickly arrive from RWD and simple TC to complex stability electronic systems and then ultimately to autonomous race cars, because that would be more efficient and innovative.
+1

At least ABS remains forbidden in the 2014 regs.
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Old 29 Oct 2012, 15:40 (Ref:3159596)   #2559
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But the rule isn't about BoPing between manufacturers vs. privateers, but betweeen different different "propulsion technologies". Altough, right now it's the same thing...
True.

When Audi was still racing the non-hybrid R18, it was not that much slower (especially over a single lap). So the FIA could argue that the BoP between the propulsion technologies is correct and hence that the gap between manufacturers and privateers is due to other aspects of the car (aero, suspension, drivers, ...).
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Old 30 Oct 2012, 09:49 (Ref:3160033)   #2560
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Originally Posted by gwyllion View Post
So Audi should have thrown away the 18 months of work, during which the whole system was designed, when the FIA technical department agreed on the 120 km/h rule?

Audi probably did not have the luxury of developing two hybrid solutions and then choosing the best solution based on track testing and the final rule book. Remember that 2012 was planned to be a development year only for Toyota, whereas Audi had to be ready to face Peugeot in a full WEC season.

BTW the 120 km/h rule was officially announced on 10/10/2011, but Audi obviously knew this a few months earlier.
That's weird, the link you gave earlier of the PDF file shows the date as published on 23rd of September 2011. And page 5 states
Quote:
If the STSY [Rechargeable Energy Storage System (STSY)] is connected to the front wheels, the release of energy is permitted only above 120 km/h.
So, yes I believe 'Audi obviously knew about this' for some time as they're part of the teams' running a hybrid system. It was their decision to run front driven hybrid power when they knew it'd be above 120kmh. You've stated Peugeot lobbied for that (along with the 500kj), and Audi conceded the advantage it'd bring.

I also don't understand how Toyota could afford to try front and rear but Audi couldn't? I think 4wd 'Quattro' is something they wanted to label and that helped with their decision. But what do I know?
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Old 30 Oct 2012, 10:05 (Ref:3160041)   #2561
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I suspect the petrol diesel equivalence may also be part of the mix in trying to balance the two types of car.
Audi also have a much greater energy recovery potential in the front axle and the flywheel system offers potentially greater storage capacity than batteries.
However batteries offer more flexibility in their location as a number small ones can be placed around the car to give better weight distribution.
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Old 30 Oct 2012, 13:59 (Ref:3160139)   #2562
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Originally Posted by gwyllion View Post
It is interesting to you bring up the BoP of the privateers. The easiest way to determine the performance gap between the manfacturers and privateers, is with the 2% rule from the FIA WEC sporting regulations.
[snip]
The privateers were always more than 2% slower than the manufacturers. If the FIA respects their own rules, they will definitely get a BoP break in 2013.
http://auto-racing.speedtv.com/artic...f-shanghai/P2/ confirms that privateers will receive a performance boost.

The FIA realizes that the privateer don't have the budget to develop an engine with a bigger restrictor for the final year of the current rules. So the break will be in form of a lower minimum weight and a bigger fuel tank. Strangely this reasoning does not apply to the Toyota rear wing solution
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Old 30 Oct 2012, 15:19 (Ref:3160171)   #2563
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ger80 should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Not sure if rear hybrid + diesel might be too much for the rear Michelins?
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Old 30 Oct 2012, 15:23 (Ref:3160172)   #2564
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Peugeot did not think that this would be a problem. And the Michelins were able to handle the much bigger torque from the V12 diesel days (in direction of 1500 Nm).
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Old 31 Oct 2012, 19:17 (Ref:3160700)   #2565
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http://endurance-info.com/version2/a...nce-14297.html has some news about the 2013 LMP rules.

There are some minor changes in LMP2 regarding the cost cap and the displacement of diesel engines (i.e., Mazda) is limited to 2500 cc.

In LMP1 the hybrid capacity will stay at 500 kJ. So the increase to 1 MJ is not happening. Braking will be defined as 1G deceleration, whereas this year it was defined as 2G. Perhaps this means that there will be more hybrid activation zones on some tracks.
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Old 31 Oct 2012, 20:24 (Ref:3160726)   #2566
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Or to allow the Audi hybrid system to charge up faster, since it doesn't seem to be as efficient at charging up quickly as the Toyota system seems to be. Could also be the ACO's way of helping to get around the 120kmh limit without slapping Toyota with a similar penalty, which won't help privateers that much unless they adopt the Flybrid system themselves.
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Old 31 Oct 2012, 21:28 (Ref:3160757)   #2567
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The new version of the regulations can be found on http://private.fia.com/web/fia-publi...8.09.2012).pdf. The list of changes starts on page 43.

This rule was added to the LMP2 rules, presumably to keep the costs under control:
Quote:
A manufacturer who has one homologated model of LM P2 car is not allowed to present a second one for Homologation within a period of 3 years. Exception allowed if conversion from open to closed car or for the introduction of a chassis in compliance with the 2014 LMP1 regulation (see article 14.1.5.b.6).
The LMP1 hybrid rules are now as follows:
Quote:
  • The amount of energy used between 2 braking must not exceed 0.5 MJ.
    Braking is a deceleration of the car greater than 1g.
    Braking lasting under 1 second will not be taken into account.
    For each circuit, some braking zone will be defined by Endurance Committee before every event. The allowance and measurement of released energy will be considered for every lap between each of the defined entries of zones.
    If the STSY is connected to the front wheels, the release of energy is permitted only above 120 km/h.
  • Cars must be fitted with homologated sensors which provide all necessary signals directly to the FIA data logger in order to verify the limitations mentioned above are properly fulfilled.
Does this last rule mean that the FIA expects that Audi and/or Toyota might have been cheating this year?

Article 3.4.5 (air extractors) has been extended:
Quote:
These openings must enable the introduction of a rectangular template measuring 20 cm x 25 cm, positioned horizontally and symmetrically in relation to the axis of the axle.
For front and rear ;
  • Seen from above : between the outer edge of the opening and the outer edge of the wing, a minimum distance of 30mm is compulsory.
  • Seen from the front and from the rear: the upper part of the tyre may be visible.
  • Seen from the side, no part of the bodywork around the front wheel hole may be higher than 725 mm from reference surface.
  • Seen from the side
    LMP1 : no part of the bodywork around the rear wheel hole may be higher than 725 mm from reference surface forward of the rear wheel centreline.
    LMP2 : no part of the bodywork around the rear wheel hole may be higher than 725 mm from reference surface.
That last rule explicitly makes the Toyota loophole legal for LMP1, but illegal for LMP2. So the FIA has not lost its mind completely.

It should be noted that there are no performance breaks for non-hybrids (i.e. privateers) in the rules

Last edited by gwyllion; 31 Oct 2012 at 21:52.
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Old 31 Oct 2012, 21:35 (Ref:3160760)   #2568
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The article also explains that in 2013 LMP2 engines must last longer between rebuilds.

An extract from the LMP 2012 technical regulations

Judd is not happy with that requirement:
Judd and Nismo will be happy. The rules that control the cost of LMP2 engines have been scratched completely in the 2013 rules!

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Old 31 Oct 2012, 22:08 (Ref:3160766)   #2569
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A final rule change that is noteworthy, is that the 2014 LMP1 cockpit shape will already be allowed in LMP2 2013.
Quote:
3.1.1 Dimensions
Height : No part of the bodywork is permitted to be more than 1030 mm (*) above the reference surface (See Article 3.5.1), except the rear rollover structure fairing that may be 10 mm maximum above the rear rollover structure.
(*) 1050 mm for LMP2 equiped with a chassis in compliance with the 2014 LMP1 regulations.

3.6.4 Fin
b/ Position
The top edge must be straight and situated between 1020 mm and 1030 mm (*) above the reference plane.
The side projection of the leading edge must be straight and situated:
(*) 1040 mm and 1050 mm for LMP2 equiped with a chassis in compliance with the 2014 LMP1 regulations.

14.1.5 Cockpit opening and volume
b/ Closed car
b.6 For LMP2 cars, it will be allowed for a new model of car to have its cockpit designed in accordance with the 2014 LMP1 regulations.
The Lotus T128 designer already said that he is designing the cockpit according to the 2014 rules.
Quote:
The LM P2 version already includes certain requirements stipulated by the LM P1 regulations of 2014, such as the driver position higher and more forward than it is on the current prototypes. This constraint penalizes aerodynamics somewhat but improves visibility for the driver.
source: http://www.lemans.org/en/races/24h/u...m-p2_9127.html
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Old 1 Nov 2012, 00:21 (Ref:3160832)   #2570
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So the FIA has not lost its mind completely.
FIA or really ACO? I would really think it's ACO that is mainly reponsible for the rules writing. The fact that "FIA" is all over the document is not that relevant.
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Old 1 Nov 2012, 06:50 (Ref:3160898)   #2571
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Did I read correctly in there is no 'sloping' fin? If I read correctly that's a bummer. I was hoping it would be allowed like the first iteration of the R18-

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Old 1 Nov 2012, 07:37 (Ref:3160911)   #2572
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Sloping fins were already illegal in 2012. See article 3.6.4.b of http://www.mulsannescorner.com/2012LMP12.pdf (p. 17).
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Old 1 Nov 2012, 11:44 (Ref:3161024)   #2573
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Did I read correctly in there is no 'sloping' fin? If I read correctly that's a bummer. I was hoping it would be allowed like the first iteration of the R18-

I have come to accept the fins and don't think they actually look that bad. But when seeing a picture like this and imagining the car without fin, I realize how good the R18 would look without it.
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Old 2 Nov 2012, 02:54 (Ref:3161365)   #2574
gregtummer
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gregtummer should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
2 serious questions:

Why not roof flaps? Works for NASCAR.

Why can't they make a tapered fin like F1?

They had the full fin for a year or two and now it is the tapered fin.

Graham Goodwin said that they are for different purposes, but F1 goes 215mph at Monza and has a tapered fin, so I don't see what the problem is?
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Old 2 Nov 2012, 02:55 (Ref:3161366)   #2575
deggis
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deggis is going for a new world record!deggis is going for a new world record!deggis is going for a new world record!deggis is going for a new world record!deggis is going for a new world record!deggis is going for a new world record!deggis is going for a new world record!
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Originally Posted by gwyllion View Post
It should be noted that there are no performance breaks for non-hybrids (i.e. privateers) in the rules
Not yet? Nov 1 Autosport, Ullrich (apparently interviewed at Shangai): "Yes, they should get some help and we have agreed this for the good of the championship, but it remains a general discussion. There are no numbers or values at the moment."
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