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Old 23 Oct 2013, 19:22 (Ref:3322253)   #151
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Originally Posted by Fogelhund View Post
It appears to be an interesting exercise in engineering, for a market with barely any customers, that most certainly cannot possibly support any business model.

Audi, Toyota, HPD, Judd, AER, Zytek engines all available for a market of somewhere between one to four teams likely.
I completley agree. it does seem that the lmp engine and chassis market is a poor basis for a profitable business, the volume of competitors has gone......AER admitted they would not make an lmp2 engine as the price cap rendered the opportunity a non profitable exercise.....as it turns out same on the chassis too.
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Old 23 Oct 2013, 19:46 (Ref:3322265)   #152
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Another LMP1 engine for 2014? I wonder why so many engine builders are developing LMP1 engines for next year. So far, only three privateer teams are known who want to run LMP1 next year: Rebellion, OAK and Strakka. And Rebellion already have engines for next year. So there are five engine options for only 2-4 cars. Or are there other teams, who haven't made their intention to run an LMP1 public yet?
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Old 23 Oct 2013, 19:56 (Ref:3322272)   #153
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Maybe the engine-builders are hoping that the class grows in the future?
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Old 23 Oct 2013, 20:27 (Ref:3322297)   #154
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Maybe the engine-builders are hoping that the class grows in the future?
Hardly can shrink can it?

For 2017 the series organizers have to get their act together, and put together formula that will work across WEC, ELMS, TUSC, that will allow for manufacturers to showcase their technologies, without completely trouncing the privateers. The privateers must have a chance at competing for overall victories, or at least make it darned closed that an upset is possible once in a while. I'm not sure what the exact solution is, but I do know that we need reasonably priced chassis, with manufacturer brands in the top categories to maximize their popularity. No disrespect to Oak, Zytek, Lola, Riley etc... but those chassis aren't what draws fans to track. Audi, Toyota, Porsche, Peugeot, Acura... those are what people want to see. We need multiple series with the same basic specs for the top class, so that there is a business model that works for engine manufacturers and chassis builders alike. Without a larger market, there is really no future in the current top class, except for relying strictly on manufacturer participation.
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Old 23 Oct 2013, 22:22 (Ref:3322338)   #155
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[...] that will work across WEC, ELMS, TUSC [...]
Don't forget about ALMS ... no, no, the new one, i.e. Asian
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Old 24 Oct 2013, 01:40 (Ref:3322397)   #156
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Hardly can shrink can it?

For 2017 the series organizers have to get their act together, and put together formula that will work across WEC, ELMS, TUSC, that will allow for manufacturers to showcase their technologies, without completely trouncing the privateers. The privateers must have a chance at competing for overall victories, or at least make it darned closed that an upset is possible once in a while. I'm not sure what the exact solution is, but I do know that we need reasonably priced chassis, with manufacturer brands in the top categories to maximize their popularity. No disrespect to Oak, Zytek, Lola, Riley etc... but those chassis aren't what draws fans to track. Audi, Toyota, Porsche, Peugeot, Acura... those are what people want to see. We need multiple series with the same basic specs for the top class, so that there is a business model that works for engine manufacturers and chassis builders alike. Without a larger market, there is really no future in the current top class, except for relying strictly on manufacturer participation.
The privateers LMP1 must be in 800 Kg or 775 kg, to have a chance at competing for overall victories, at least in some WEC circuits with more curves than Le Mans. Remember the great battles between LMP1 and LMP2 in ALMS 2007 and 2008
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Old 24 Oct 2013, 05:46 (Ref:3322452)   #157
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The privateers LMP1 must be in 800 Kg or 775 kg, to have a chance at competing for overall victories, at least in some WEC circuits with more curves than Le Mans. Remember the great battles between LMP1 and LMP2 in ALMS 2007 and 2008
They will be 850kg next year with a higher fuel flow and more power, but no hybrid. Thats a little much imo. 800kg should be their weight and factory/hybrids 850kg.
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Old 24 Oct 2013, 08:18 (Ref:3322489)   #158
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Zytek and Judd article
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/110813
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Old 24 Oct 2013, 08:35 (Ref:3322490)   #159
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"Judd said he was talking to a number of potential customers for its engine."

Who could that be, apart from OAK and Strakka?
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Old 24 Oct 2013, 08:50 (Ref:3322496)   #160
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That autosport article is just a combination of the two press releases:
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Old 24 Oct 2013, 11:45 (Ref:3322536)   #161
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Originally Posted by Fogelhund View Post
Hardly can shrink can it?

For 2017 the series organizers have to get their act together, and put together formula that will work across WEC, ELMS, TUSC, that will allow for manufacturers to showcase their technologies, without completely trouncing the privateers. The privateers must have a chance at competing for overall victories, or at least make it darned closed that an upset is possible once in a while. I'm not sure what the exact solution is, but I do know that we need reasonably priced chassis, with manufacturer brands in the top categories to maximize their popularity. No disrespect to Oak, Zytek, Lola, Riley etc... but those chassis aren't what draws fans to track. Audi, Toyota, Porsche, Peugeot, Acura... those are what people want to see. We need multiple series with the same basic specs for the top class, so that there is a business model that works for engine manufacturers and chassis builders alike. Without a larger market, there is really no future in the current top class, except for relying strictly on manufacturer participation.
What Fogelhund says is a no-brainer, this has been the solution to alleviating the troughs in the up and down of sportscar racing. And this certainly isn't information exclusive to us forum denziens; the powers that be know this too. So you have to ask yourself, why hasn't anything like this been implemented in the 50+ year history of sportscar racing? We have to hold the powers that be in sportscar racing to a higher standard from here on out, and absolutely ROAST them when they get it wrong. They have to achieve balance between the haves and the have nots (manufacturers and privateers) as BOTH are necessary for long term success. As fans we've suffered through poor management and people with ulterior motives for FAR too long. We need to expect better.
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Old 24 Oct 2013, 12:59 (Ref:3322565)   #162
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What Fogelhund says is a no-brainer, this has been the solution to alleviating the troughs in the up and down of sportscar racing. And this certainly isn't information exclusive to us forum denziens; the powers that be know this too. So you have to ask yourself, why hasn't anything like this been implemented in the 50+ year history of sportscar racing? We have to hold the powers that be in sportscar racing to a higher standard from here on out, and absolutely ROAST them when they get it wrong. They have to achieve balance between the haves and the have nots (manufacturers and privateers) as BOTH are necessary for long term success. As fans we've suffered through poor management and people with ulterior motives for FAR too long. We need to expect better.

Like...oops, wrong site.
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Old 24 Oct 2013, 14:30 (Ref:3322598)   #163
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So you have to ask yourself, why hasn't anything like this been implemented in the 50+ year history of sportscar racing? ...

We need to expect better.
I agree. I've put a lot of thought into this myself. Back in 1999, I had the audacity to propose and create a solution I thought would address this. It may not be perfect, but it was a start in the right direction, I think.

There needs to a level ABOVE the FIA - ACO - IMSA, etc. level of jurisdiction that makes the common rules for everyone. Right now, each group makes their own rules, their own series and their own points system, etc. There is some overlap but still there are differences. And, one group won't recognize the points of another, etc..

The problem is that manufacturers, constructors, teams and drivers compete in a lot of different series. There's not a common unity that recognizes this fact.

So, in 1998, I started the CyberCup which recognized all the different series and tracked the results of manufacturers, constructors, teams and drivers across all of these. I weighted the tracks and events and then put all results into a central database. Then, the results were truly a 'global' championship.

It was truly ironic that one of the oldest drivers competing in the world, Elliot Forbes Robinson, won the driver's championship. Many ironies in these results but as I thought about it, it seemed hugely symbolic... after all, this type of racing is about endurance and smarts. And a guy who had plenty of both, won the championship.

So, I agree that there needs to be common 'standards' that can be implemented around the world. Here's the main menu image from the 1999 CyberCup.

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Old 24 Oct 2013, 17:00 (Ref:3322641)   #164
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Maybe the engine-builders are hoping that the class grows in the future?
There is a big difference between announcing that cars will be built and actually building them. Not so long ago HPD announced that they are to build new P1 coupes will all kinds of (non)hybrid options available in hope that customers will materialize. A few months later it turns out that customers are there but cars won't be build in time for Le Mans, let alone WEC round1, and that hybrid versions are to be expected only in 2015... because they pulled the trigger too late... apparently waiting for customers to commit (contrary to what has been said in the original announcement).
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Old 24 Oct 2013, 19:57 (Ref:3322691)   #165
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Someone has been enquiring about grandfathering in the old Rebellion Lolas:

http://msn.foxsports.com/speed/sport...s-bart-hayden/
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Old 1 Nov 2013, 08:04 (Ref:3325809)   #166
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Now we know more about the AER engine: V6 bi-turbo engine according to endurance-info.com


Any idea as to the engine displacement ?
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Old 1 Nov 2013, 09:32 (Ref:3325839)   #167
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Last we heard it was confidential, but a 90 degree angle bi turbo.
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Old 1 Nov 2013, 13:10 (Ref:3325908)   #168
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Now we are only missing one key piece of info: will anyone use it?
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Old 1 Nov 2013, 21:51 (Ref:3326075)   #169
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The privateers LMP1 must be in 800 Kg or 775 kg, to have a chance at competing for overall victories, at least in some WEC circuits with more curves than Le Mans. Remember the great battles between LMP1 and LMP2 in ALMS 2007 and 2008
Yes.. but that was no "sport" competition, was a managed frickshow

IMSA created a LMP2+ just to prevent the Audi's to win all the races like they did in 2006, yet Audi managed to win most of them... and deserved the title of tractors alright, since they carried 125kg more.

The best shows in ALMS was when Peugeot was there to, in 2009 and 2010, not 2007 or 2008.

I think next year will be better from a "posture" perspective... no LMP1.. meaning no diesel menace... meaning "legend" races, which BTW they should be allowed to enter the "legend" show at Le Mans, since Penske dared not to get out of their "distorted" yard, now they are more than ok for "legend" lol

About reducing weight!... why not 600kg ? ... after all doesn't come the heavy accusations and blames from the public, to repeat the same stupid mistakes of F1... only F1 isn't "car" races in any way you might put it, is more like MotoGP on 4 wheels... and Le Mans endurance tradition has always been quite antagonistic to anything to do with "motor bikes" 4 or 2 wheels.

Also Le Mans tradition was "never either" about "Trophy" like races, that is why there are so many different cars and categories, with very disparate performances... if ppl are so concerned about "equaling" performances, why not "dictate" only one kind of car, one engine, all equal to everybody( 1.2 L 4 cylinder, no DI allowed (meaning no diesel possible), no hybrid allowed LOL ..there will be pretty equal performances LOL)... then i'll be dying of anxiety not to watch it, i kind of fall at sleep watching "trophy" like races of a single manufacturer car... the same ALMS ( we want faster not slower).
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Old 1 Nov 2013, 23:49 (Ref:3326125)   #170
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I still remember the rumours about a diesel Mecachrome engine based on their TEOS powertrain.... But I think that was just smoke

http://www.motorsport-total.com/wec/...-13081703.html
oh! what makes you say that (official denial) ?... though not really confident i hope not, i was really looking forward to some competition in LPM1 for 2014, 2013 with just 5/6 cars (and 2012 almost the same) was just abhorrent, much to blame ACO/FIA. Since 2006, i think Audi deserves some competition that only the unlucky Peugeot have provided(champion and 1 time Le Man win).

Mecachrome created the V12 and V8 diesels for Peugeot (TEOS site describes now only a V8 http://www.teos-engineering.com/expe...el-engine.html ), and i think that with the current draft a V8 diesel is possible to adapt... just give it like a "multirail" that is more akin to the petrol DI, like Volvo will be using in the diesel PHEV V60, rated at ~100MPG or ~2L diesel per 100Km (MPGe is above 155), meaning 99g/km http://www.greencarcongress.com/2013...025-volvo.html

... if Audi will be using something like this i-ART, if Bosh could provide something similar adapted for competition (each cylinder injector has its own independent controller) http://www.greencarcongress.com/2013...-20130408.html , then they will be a very hard nut to crack... and that is a big problem developing diesel for competition, you never know where the rules will be and how often they change during a season, a REAL ANTI-SPORT environment, because all in all expect costs to balloon drastically, and don't count too much your diesel engine to last more than one season on one configuration if it reveals itself "superior"... that is why there is nobody else bent on the big expense(that is why i'm not confident).

(i-ART and Volvo-155MPGe- just show why the very influential greased "big oil big money" war lords don't like diesel lol)

I think the great equalizer could be "precisely" hybrid, why can't all the energy that a car can produce, and there is much more "energy" available to recuperate and spend than from EGERS... why can't this energy be "free" for use... why this rules about "measuring", that is, why even the need to measure anything, the hybrid energy is produce by the car in motion is not exterior or either by more fuel or other means (all energy comes from the fuel in last analyses, so fuel flow rules would also impact free hybrid to), and the more battery/capacitor/flywheel you carry the heavier the car(great handicap for racing)... it should be "free" for use, a free hybrid rule like engines ( and in this engine rule i must congratulate ACO/FIA -> a very wise decision).

In a "free" hybrid ( complete jaw dropping abhorrent this actual recuperate zones rules) , petrol has some advantage to balance pure engine deficit, hotter exhaust, and not only a turbine but thermoelectric could also be applied to EG. What it wastes more in the engine efficiency, more will be available to recuperate.

Guess the influential powers don't want "hybrid" to be full develop either... we as spectators are or should be in opposite sides of the propaganda spin noise about "equal" performance distortions... and is noise, much more efficient if by speakers lol... and efficiency at the expense of speed and performance is NOT "race efficiency" ACO/FIA, don't you think ?
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Old 2 Nov 2013, 01:15 (Ref:3326155)   #171
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Another LMP1 engine for 2014? I wonder why so many engine builders are developing LMP1 engines for next year. So far, only three privateer teams are known who want to run LMP1 next year: Rebellion, OAK and Strakka. And Rebellion already have engines for next year. So there are five engine options for only 2-4 cars. Or are there other teams, who haven't made their intention to run an LMP1 public yet?
Because the rules are "free" ... kind of (with much much less restrictions)... and with it comes freedom to innovate to adapt, and this leads to more "vibrant" ecosystems (which is quite the opposite the "equal" performance standardization paranoia).

Yet i think many of those offerings wont find an adopter, at least not yet in 2014... but quite nice to have many choices, diversity instead of "equality".
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Old 2 Nov 2013, 07:01 (Ref:3326203)   #172
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Mecachrome created the V12 and V8 diesels for Peugeot (TEOS site describes now only a V8 http://www.teos-engineering.com/expe...el-engine.html ), and i think that with the current draft a V8 diesel is possible to adapt... just give it like a "multirail" that is more akin to the petrol DI, like Volvo will be using in the diesel PHEV V60, rated at ~100MPG or ~2L diesel per 100Km (MPGe is above 155), meaning 99g/km http://www.greencarcongress.com/2013...025-volvo.html
Ooops!

The engine at TEOS is a V10 not a V8... my bad.

But lets see applying some rotating calculations

http://www.convertunits.com/from/ft+lb/to/N+m (ft-lb<->Nm)

http://www.calculatoredge.com/new/horsepower.htm (calculator)

A V10 is very elastic, if Mecachrome really optimizes it for torque (meaning higher specific compression ratios), attending rumors that the V12 pushed high could have more than 1400Nm... if they can obtain 1100Nm out of it, they can "cut" it or optimize it for max 3900rpm(which for many petrols is just above "ralenti" (idle) LOL), yet draw more than 600HP.
(using calculator, 1100Nm is 811.31ft-lb, with 3900rpm gives 602.46HP-- i think 3800 could be enough for a good "hybrid" lol)


Now 3900 max is really "economic" attending the Audi now does more than 4500rpm yet have lower HP, compensating that way if not higher displacement, higher number of cylinders(a V10 could go well around 3.5L), and higher number of firings per revolution is from where the "torque" could came... and a good transmission optimized to run on this sweat spot band, could have all gear ratios close to max power, which with a V10 could be very easy and fast to get(3800-3900rpm)... meaning real fast acceleration...

About the Volvo V60 PHEV the claim is really 155.2MPG in hybrid mode (which is a little different from elsewhere) http://www.carmagazine.co.uk/Drives/...13-CAR-review/ ... yet in this "ecomomic" hybrid mode top speed is 77mph (123Kmh), even above some legal highway limits for this "combined" tests lol

Last... Toyota had it at hand, WEC and LeMans victory... yet decided to make much harder (perhaps the more easy of all is complain to the ACO lol), and now seems so hard... there goes 2 - 0 (2 tries), and next year will be many more to benefit from the "complaining game" lol http://www.greencarcongress.com/2012...-20120925.html (commercial i-ART systems)
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Old 6 Nov 2013, 13:36 (Ref:3327992)   #173
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http://sportscar365.com/wec/welter-r...loping-engine/

Welter Racing developing LMP1 engine to go with their chassis
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Old 6 Nov 2013, 14:07 (Ref:3328005)   #174
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http://sportscar365.com/wec/welter-r...loping-engine/

Welter Racing developing LMP1 engine to go with their chassis
So they are going completely in house on this. Says they are doing the FIA crash test this winter on the chassis. Sounds like things are progressing.
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Old 6 Nov 2013, 14:15 (Ref:3328008)   #175
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So they are going completely in house on this. Says they are doing the FIA crash test this winter on the chassis. Sounds like things are progressing.
I hope so. I've been following this program since their first announcement. Can't give up on it now.

Wondering aloud, what are Welter's plans? An FIA WEC full season attack or just a 24 Hours of Le Mans participation?
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How about a LMP1 Pro & LMP1 Privateer class Holt Sportscar & GT Racing 35 6 Jun 2012 13:44
Can someone explain the current detailed rules on the Engines? jellison NASCAR & Stock Car Racing 33 15 Apr 2008 21:39
Current Cosworth Engines????? Peter Nightingale Formula One 11 26 May 2006 18:54
New Engines in LMP1 JAG Sportscar & GT Racing 27 31 Mar 2004 14:25
CURRENT POWER OUTPUTS OF GP AND SUPERBIKE ENGINES? Robin Plummer Racing Technology 3 12 Oct 2000 11:15


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