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Old 6 Oct 2017, 00:56 (Ref:3772204)   #76
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Originally Posted by canaglia View Post
Given by the fact that BR01 seems to be just a dallara lmp2 with a more low drag nose; the real deal would be an oreca 07 and ligier js p217 packages powered by an lmp1 motor.
Basically a missing link between an ACO lmp2 and a DPi
Come on man, you can't make that judgement on blurry spy pics. The underbody aero is a lot more open in lmp1 than it is in lmp2, btw! So they could be hiding a lot of their 'tricks' between the front wheels. They also look to have a 'bubble roof' like the Porsche 919, something the lmp2 doesn't have.

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Old 13 Oct 2017, 17:21 (Ref:3774043)   #77
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Another engine option breaks cover:

http://sportscar365.com/lemans/wec/a...teer-programs/

But will there be any takers?
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Old 13 Oct 2017, 17:58 (Ref:3774048)   #78
canaglia
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canaglia should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Honestly?
5 or <6L displacement is the worst for a NA racing engine. Too small to work as a dyno, and because of that it needs to rev higher to achieve target power, so consumes can't be optimized.

Considering that in 2010-2011 seasons the judd 5.5 that powered lola rebellion, dyson and oreca 01 had a revlimit to 7500rpm to push 600hp, how much high has to rev now to reach >700? 9000rpm?

almost the same of a sprint cup engine figures.
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Old 13 Oct 2017, 18:12 (Ref:3774051)   #79
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In '08 Judd claimed that they were doing close to 700bhp and that was measured at close to 7000rpm. Gibson also claim that their 4.5 liter V8 also was making 700bhp at the same time (though at significantly higher rpm).

The problem is that back then power was limited by air restrictors, while now they're dealing with fuel flow. They might be easily able to make well over 700bhp, but it won't be as consistent as it would be with air restrictors and no lift and coast.
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Old 13 Oct 2017, 22:51 (Ref:3774082)   #80
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Originally Posted by chernaudi View Post
In '08 Judd claimed that they were doing close to 700bhp and that was measured at close to 7000rpm. Gibson also claim that their 4.5 liter V8 also was making 700bhp at the same time (though at significantly higher rpm).

The problem is that back then power was limited by air restrictors, while now they're dealing with fuel flow. They might be easily able to make well over 700bhp, but it won't be as consistent as it would be with air restrictors and no lift and coast.
They lift and coast to meet the amount of fuel allocated to them. If they are allocated more, there'd be no need to do that. 10 years have passed since then. If the engines aren't more fuel efficient or more powerful, then those companies have sat still. That I highly doubt!
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Old 14 Oct 2017, 09:12 (Ref:3774144)   #81
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Originally Posted by chernaudi View Post
In '08 Judd claimed that they were doing close to 700bhp and that was measured at close to 7000rpm. Gibson also claim that their 4.5 liter V8 also was making 700bhp at the same time (though at significantly higher rpm).

The problem is that back then power was limited by air restrictors, while now they're dealing with fuel flow. They might be easily able to make well over 700bhp, but it won't be as consistent as it would be with air restrictors and no lift and coast.
Well rs spyder pushed >500hp @ >10000rpm. Of course gibson V8 can push >600hp revving higher but engine won't last 3 hours (reg revlimit is 9000rpm or 9200rpm).

About judd V10, to reach 700hp @7000rpm the engine has to develope 710Nm!

Giving for genuine these figures:

Judd GV5.5 S2, V10 (72o) cyl, 4 stroke, petrol - Ethanol E10 engine.
5496cc, 94 x 79.2 mm
2006-2009: 650 bhp / 485 KW @ 7000 rpm, 657 Nm / 485 ft lbs @ 6500 rpm
2010: 700 bhp @ 8000 rpm, 550 ft lbs @ 6500 rpm
aluminium block and head
forged steel crankshaft with 6 main bearings
DOHC, 4 valves/cyl, 40 valves total
aspiration, natural with multipoint electronic Fuel Injection. 1 x 45.5mm inlet restrictor
dry sump


It's quite likely that 700hp are reached at about 8000rpm. But just think about how much fuel will be required to keep the torque curve so high at 6500rpm as these values suggest.
Repeat, these are basically the power/torque figures of a nascar engine like. Can this kind of engine be reliable enough to be used in endurance races?
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Old 14 Oct 2017, 13:06 (Ref:3774173)   #82
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Those are the figures that Judd themselves gave, but now the website says 800+bhp without air restrictors.

http://www.mulsannescorner.com/juddgv510.html

And with the fuel flow meters, the point is to lift and coast. They're there for the same reason air restrictors are, to limit the performance of the cars. If you're going to give them enough fuel so they don't have to lift and coast, then why run the flow meters? May as well go back to air restrictors if you're going to do that.
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Old 14 Oct 2017, 19:11 (Ref:3774195)   #83
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Originally Posted by chernaudi View Post
Those are the figures that Judd themselves gave, but now the website says 800+bhp without air restrictors.

http://www.mulsannescorner.com/juddgv510.html

And with the fuel flow meters, the point is to lift and coast. They're there for the same reason air restrictors are, to limit the performance of the cars. If you're going to give them enough fuel so they don't have to lift and coast, then why run the flow meters? May as well go back to air restrictors if you're going to do that.
You can regulate it easier with fuel flows. You get a set amount of fuel to use and it's up to your engine to use it how they see fit. Imo it's more fair to use than air restrictors which don't do well to limit diesel engines for example, which don't rely on air like petrol engines.
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Old 14 Oct 2017, 19:23 (Ref:3774197)   #84
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canaglia should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
lmp1-l are allowed to use more than 100kg/h, am I right?
basically they are already running unrestricted....

anyway I am not complaining about figures or power quotes released by judd, just saying that you can power up a NA engine as you like, because basically it's all about how high you want make it rev; but it simply won't last 24hours!
and what about consumes? the 45 minutes pit window will require 100L....

But honestly, do lmp1-L need all that power?
what do you get with 800hp if your car has a so awful aero that can't let you have a good cornering speed and can't let you exit fast from corners as well?
basically you need 800hp only to hit 350km/h at the end of mulsanne.... using DRS is a cheaper and safer way to do that.
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Old 16 Oct 2017, 00:40 (Ref:3774395)   #85
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lmp1-l are allowed to use more than 100kg/h, am I right?
basically they are already running unrestricted....
115, but that hybrid accounts for a lot.
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Old 16 Oct 2017, 08:59 (Ref:3774439)   #86
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V10s rule.

That's my contribution.
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Old 16 Oct 2017, 11:31 (Ref:3774450)   #87
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knighty should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridknighty should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
I think some of you doubters of the Judd engine are missing the point......running a turbo engine is a nightmare in terms of weight, packaging, aerodynamics and reliability......its the reliability factor that Judd are majoring on in their sales pitch

But I think they may have shot themselves in the foot with the move from 90 degrees over to a 72 degree......the incumbent customer engines from AER and Mechachrome are all 90 degree........so the carbon chassis engine fixing points have been manufactured for 90 degree engines.......hope Judd have realized this????....the Nissan-cosworth V6 is a lot narrower, no angle numbers released but it looks 60 degree.

Otherwise, if I was starting an LMP1 team this engine would be well towards to top of my list.......a proper piece of kit.
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Old 16 Oct 2017, 14:00 (Ref:3774486)   #88
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I think that none of the customer LMP1s will use fully stress mounted engines. It's not like Audi Sport, Porsche and Toyota who designed their cars and engines to be stress mounted and as a single cohesive unit.

Even though it was designed as a F1 engine, I don't think that anyone ever stress mounted a Judd V10, not Pescarolo, not Courage, not Dome, anyone as far as I know.

I think that all LMP1 privateers will use some adapter to semi-stress mount the engines in their cars.
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Old 16 Oct 2017, 20:59 (Ref:3774562)   #89
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Originally Posted by knighty View Post
I think some of you doubters of the Judd engine are missing the point......running a turbo engine is a nightmare in terms of weight, packaging, aerodynamics and reliability......its the reliability factor that Judd are majoring on in their sales pitch

But I think they may have shot themselves in the foot with the move from 90 degrees over to a 72 degree......the incumbent customer engines from AER and Mechachrome are all 90 degree........so the carbon chassis engine fixing points have been manufactured for 90 degree engines.......hope Judd have realized this????....the Nissan-cosworth V6 is a lot narrower, no angle numbers released but it looks 60 degree.

Otherwise, if I was starting an LMP1 team this engine would be well towards to top of my list.......a proper piece of kit.
Wikipedia says 60 deg, so it must be true.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nissan_GT-R_LM_Nismo
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Old 17 Oct 2017, 00:07 (Ref:3774577)   #90
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Originally Posted by chernaudi View Post
I think that none of the customer LMP1s will use fully stress mounted engines. It's not like Audi Sport, Porsche and Toyota who designed their cars and engines to be stress mounted and as a single cohesive unit.

Even though it was designed as a F1 engine, I don't think that anyone ever stress mounted a Judd V10, not Pescarolo, not Courage, not Dome, anyone as far as I know.

I think that all LMP1 privateers will use some adapter to semi-stress mount the engines in their cars.
What?


Rebellion's Toyota engines were always fully stressed, so was any Zytek or Mugen installation besides the Panoz. Champ Cars used to run four different engines as stressed members. It's not that hard.

The GV has always been 72deg. That's the normal bank angle for a V10 otherwise you get some crazy vibrations that are worthwhile for F1 but pretty stupid in endurance racing.
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